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GENERAL BOARDS => DAIRY FARM - Animals => Topic started by: ArnaudForestier on March 16, 2014, 03:35:55 PM
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I've no husbandry experience; I've only self-study. For quite some time, I've thought on changing up life, and renting a small farm, and keeping a family cow. Lots of intervening variables, but I've swept most away and am committed to trying. Possibly, developing into a true farmstead creamery.
But it starts with one animal, and one cheese, beaufort (abondance, more accurately). Asking for some input from experienced folks, or those who want to be, which breed would you recommend, and why?
Presume: 2 acres, managed intensive grazing, as much as possible. Among:
Ayrshire
Brown Swiss
Dutch Belted
Guernsey
Jersey
Milking Shorthorn
Normande
Tarentaise
-any thoughts? I drew this list as these are the cows generally in our area, with the exception of the tarentaise, and so there is an existing support network for these breeds. The tarentaise, as there is a North American tarentaise association, and there is some anecdotal research I've seen that suggests the breed's suitability for this type of cheese (which is convenient, as this is the cow one finds in the Savoie, to make the cheese).
Feel free to throw any breed in, however, along with your thoughts as to why. Much appreciated, guys.
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There are some days where I'd seriously consider giving up my city life and starting anew as a helping hand on a dairy farm and living a rural life. Whatever it is your planing, dreaming, I hope it works out for you.
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Thank you, Spoons. It's a dream, and it is also twin to a desire to spend time in the Savoie and learn. Have to sweep aside lingering doubts, and just try.
On breeds, guys. One thought, is the p/f ratio of Tarentaise (one source only), brings in a P of 3.36%, F of 3.57% for a p/f ratio of close to 1, .94. So, my mind tries to either consider Tarentaise here (there is a North American association), or a breed that tends to the same, ideal p/f ratio.
That would seem to knock Jersey out of the running; yet I know John Putnam of Thistle HIll makes an incredible Beaufort-style cheese (appropriately named, Tarentaise), with pure Jersey milk.
Beaufort is a full-fat cheese; I just wonder on how full fat a milk would be useful. The easy access to jersey, and many other characteristics makes them appealing, to me. But the heavier fat gives me pause.
Does anyone have any thoughts?
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If no one has an answer for you, maybe ask at the University of Guelph? Here's a link that you may find useful. I've found some great references on their website for cheese making knowledge.
https://www.uoguelph.ca/foodscience/content/dairy-education-series (https://www.uoguelph.ca/foodscience/content/dairy-education-series)
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Thank you Spoons, great idea, particularly as Canada was the first to import the Tarentaise. Merci, cheese to you!
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You can always just skim some cream/fat off Jersey milk. ;)
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Yep, thanks, Sailor, thought of that. But your comment, Irather's as well, on "skimming a Porsche" or something like that, gives me great pause! That, in addition to something Pav said about the difficulty of consistently getting the right protein content, when skimming.
I wonder what John Putnam does, over at Thistle Hill (or Consider Bardwell, with their gruyere style, also with Jersey). Do you happen to know?
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Store bought milk is standardized and even bleached for color consistency. "Normal" milk changes color and composition constantly. The weather, the seasons, the ambient temperature, phase of the moon, lactation cycles, and certainly what the cows are feeding on has a huge effect on the protein and fat content. The differences between our Winter milk and Summer milk is amazing. So, unless you have an onsite testing lab, IMHO chasing a "consistent" P/F is very difficult - with or without skimming.
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Thanks Sailor, makes great sense. I just found out that indeed, Thistle Hill skims their Jersey.
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So this is probably silly, and I comment on how gullible my 9 year-old boy is all the time, but...
Does the phase of the moon really affect milk or was that just thrown in for good measure?
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Depends on who you ask. Lots of old farmers still plant crops based on lunar cycles. When the moon is full, it has the most gravitational pull on the earth, the tides, and teats. So milk flow will be the highest. Cheeses also press better because of the increased lunar pressure. ;) :o ::)
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I'm teaching a lesson on Ocean Energy tomorrow, part of which involves explaining tides and the influence of the phase of the moon on the extent of the tide. I'll explain the importance in dairy activities and ask the students to calculate the effect of the moon's phase on milking and cheese pressing. I'm sure they'll enjoy doing that... ;)
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When you have just a few cows and you milk by hand or with a single machine, the temperament of the animals becomes very important, 99% of all dairies in north America (including Canada and Mexico) have Holsteins because of a very important economic reason, they just give more milk than any other breed, a very few commercial farms have jerseys and even fewer have brown Swiss, the other exotic breeds exist in really small numbers and mostly in hobby farms.
For some strange reason when city folks buy a small farm as their dream project they almost always want to raise the most rarest breed as they can possibly find, just to be different. Having said that I have Brown Swiss cows and just love their temperament, they are tame as pets, not like the Holsteins that I also have, that are very nervous all the time and hard to work with if you don't have all the corrals alleyways and doors needed to go from pastures into the parlour.
I am crossbreeding the Holsteins to Brown Swiss bulls to raise halfblooded cows that will be tamer
If you can find a good Brown Swiss cow it will be hard to beat for homesteading and cheese making, it will give enough milk for your project and also will be tame to work with. a Normande, Duthch belted, Tarentise, or Shorthorn cow will only give you about 2gal total milk a day (In pasture/low input system)
a Brown Swiss, Guernsey, Ayrshire or Jersey about 3.5 gal, and a Holstein about 5.5 gal
but it all depends on what type you like as your project is finally not a commercial enterprise
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You can rule out Tarentise, I looked at the Association and they have been using the breed for many years as a beef breed in crossbreeding, so it means that nobody is actually milking them and have not included milk production in their selection criteria. and also as they are very few pure breed they will probably be very expensive.
Another very good option if you want to keep things as true as possible is Montbeliarde, that is also allowed for the production of original Abondance cheese
http://www.coopex.com/une-tradition-de-qualite-en.php (http://www.coopex.com/une-tradition-de-qualite-en.php)
Montbeliarde crossbreeds are available in the US because it has become a trend to use this breed in a system of. 3 breed rotational crossbreeding with Holstein and Norwegian Red. Montbeliarde are very hardy, healthy, and if you keep breeding her to a pure breed Montbeliarde bull (With AI) you will eventually have pure breed Montbeliarde.
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Elkato, I was given 10 Tarentaise cow purebreeders in the U.S., but your point about the preponderance of attention on the breed being for beef is well-taken, that was my first take as well. Montbeliarde is also in the radar, just wasn't sure of any US breeders, thanks for the info. Normande is also there for serious contention, and I know the Normande Genetics guy in the U.S.
In all honesty, I am most familiar with Ayrshire, have worked with the animals and the milk for a couple years, now. Excellent grazers, excellent milk across many variables. This breed is likely top of my list, but I throw the others out for some perspective, as I've not worked with more than a smattering of Jersey, and holstein is out.
Thanks again!
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I have to go with the brown swiss.They are gentle,hardy,andgive good milk and do well on grass.Jersey imo are just to fragile.It seems they just look for a reason to die.And yes I have had both.Right no I cross a brown swiss with a jersey to try to get the butterfat up
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I have both Jersey and Dutch Belted and my first choice would be Dutch Belted. I love the temperament of my Jersey, she is a perfect "pocket cow" if that is what you want. Sometimes I don't want a 1000 cow 2" off my butt but she has never tried pushing her weight. The Dutch Belted keep their distance which is what I prefer. We both maintain a safety zone of about 2'. I have raised them since they were weaned and just love me but they are not a "pocket cow'.
The biggest difference I have between the 2 is the Dutch Belted keep their condition on with little to no grain. The Jersey on the other hand requires quite a bit more food to maintain her weight. The Dutch Belted are much more cost effective on this field.
As for cheese, I still prefer the Dutch Belteds because their butterfat does not separate like the Jerseys. My Jersey is for my milk and butter and the Dutch Belteds are for my cheese.
Hope this helps.
Cathy
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Can you take an internship or classes to get an idea about making cheeses? Some state universities have classes and on-farm cheesemakers are often pleased to find cheap labor. Once you're milking it's hard to travel.
As to the choice of breeds - the most important attribute IMHO is a cow that has been handled and milked in the way you will be milking. A local seller who will coach you is worth paying for. I would compare total milk solids to estimate cheese yield, not volume. There is a large variation within each breed, and individually depending on diet and stress. Don't start with a fixer-upper, low cost is often not good value.
Jumping in is the fastest way to learn - if milking the first cow is a disaster, ummm, you do eat hamburger don't you?
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Thanks for your thoughts, everybody. There's some stuff to accomplish first - licensing process in WI is the only one in the nation, a cumbersome but unavoidable requirement so completing that; and hoping to spend a summer or better in the Savoie to apprentice firsthand. Ultimately I suspect it's as many of you have indicated here - less the breed but the cow, and the husbandry employed in working with that cow. Locally we have a strong support network for both Ayrshires and Brown Swiss, so would suspect it comes down to that. I have to admit the smaller fat globule of the Ayrshire does appeal to me; that, and the fact I've made cheese from their milk for a few years now. But very open to anything, so thanks again for your thoughts and I invite more, keep them coming.
Thanks all.
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I bought a Jersey heifer calf when she was 3 days old and I was 13 years old. We grew up together and she gave a lot of milk. I took her on long walks, sang to her as she grazed and we generally were pretty much best friends. She gave us a calf each year and about 4 gallons of rich milk each day. We had milk, cheese, butter and once, a milk bath to rival Cleopatra's. I like an animal with which, if I have an argument, I have at least some chance of winning. I don't want to work animals that are so big they can break me by mistake, just because they moved the wrong way when they didn't know I was right there. why don't you just move to our neighborhood and milk my goats sometimes. You'll be closer to the Django in Djune festival!
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Tiarella, what a beautiful story - thank you.
Goats - hahahah, I love these guys, absolutely love them - I find them to be the genius imps of the hooved world. I gave serious thought to going this way, for many reasons. But I love cows as well, and the kind of cheese that really drives me is cow's milk, alpine cheese. The traditional way these cheeses are made, too, appeals to me so much (though I know many do amazing aged cheeses with goat's milk too!), so I'm pretty singularly on the cow's milk, alpine path. If and when we get a farmstead, you bet there will be goats, too, as part of the family. So long as we can sit down and talk out ground rules...no eating the car, no picking the lock and heading out for midnight strolls, etc.
DIJ...sadly, won't be there this year. My playing has taken a necessary hiatus and I am moving on to other endeavours (ahem, involves milk, and crazy wheel-like things....!), but it's such a wonderful event. If you can, I think the concerts this year at the week's end are going to be out of this world. Would be nice to hear your report. And if I can take a raincheck on milking your little animal partners...I'd love to visit and do just that sometime! :)
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Just want to pass along a bit of wonderful serendipity (and synchronicity, it seems to me), Tiarella and others. Just closed a conversation with a cheesemaker I respect immensely, who milks Jerseys. He loves them for their milk composition, and has never had an issue with the milk fat. He doesn't skim and like me, makes full fat, alpine cheeses. So, very encouraging, as my only concern with the Jersey has always been a matter of managing the fat content, or my presumed issues with it. I....uh, I know this is shallow....find Jerseys to be absolutely beautiful animals, and love watching them, er, be cows, doing cow things. :)
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Tiarella, what a beautiful story - thank you.
Goats - hahahah, I love these guys, absolutely love them - I find them to be the genius imps of the hooved world. I gave serious thought to going this way, for many reasons. But I love cows as well, and the kind of cheese that really drives me is cow's milk, alpine cheese. The traditional way these cheeses are made, too, appeals to me so much (though I know many do amazing aged cheeses with goat's milk too!), so I'm pretty singularly on the cow's milk, alpine path. If and when we get a farmstead, you bet there will be goats, too, as part of the family. So long as we can sit down and talk out ground rules...no eating the car, no picking the lock and heading out for midnight strolls, etc.
DIJ...sadly, won't be there this year. My playing has taken a necessary hiatus and I am moving on to other endeavours (ahem, involves milk, and crazy wheel-like things....!), but it's such a wonderful event. If you can, I think the concerts this year at the week's end are going to be out of this world. Would be nice to hear your report. And if I can take a raincheck on milking your little animal partners...I'd love to visit and do just that sometime! :)
I think my aged goat milk tommes are quite nice.....others seem to think so too. I've had cheesemongers shocked that they are not cow's milk but I do love cows also. Saw some cows recently and the thing that strikes me about them versus goats is the manure. I have gotten used to the nice little pellets and when at a farm recently, walking in the wet, sloppy bedding of cow manure I remembered how nice it is to have goats now. There is less oder to cling to me when I leave the barn and less is clinging to my boots. Pelleted fertilizer it is!
Didn't Heidi of the alps have goats for making alpine cheese? Just curious. I'm switching to the Kinder breed of goats; a cross between Nubian (high solids in the milk, used to be a dual purpose breed but got a lot of the meatiness bred out of it) and Pygmy (the meatier of the dwarf goats, also sweet, rich milk) . I will get more milk for less sets of hooves if you know what I mean and I'll have fast growing meaty carcasses from the bucklings not needed for breeding. They'll still be small enough that I can win any arguments although mostly I don't have arguments with livestock.....I prefer training them and seeing my requests through their eyes and instincts to work out routines that make sense to them.
Yes, some other year come around the Django time and milk goats and go to concerts. Nice combination. A little wine with cheese under the arbor before leaving for the concert. We do our best to be a little civilized around here once in a while! Will attach a photo of said arbor and a video good for a smile. Note, on the video when the baby goats disappear towards the camera it's because they've jumped into my lap. Good thing my Jersey didn't do that.
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Tiarella, I've seen your tommes and they look out of this world. I'm certain they taste so, too. Aging goat's milk cheeses is something I just have zero experience with, managing the potential issues with short-chain fatty acids, etc. But I know you have it down, as do many others (lots of goat folks in our area, too, Farmer's market loaded with wonderful goat's cheese). Hear you on the manure thing. I haven't quite gotten to embrace cow poop as "liquid gold," yet...and feel like such a city boy! But I've fallen in love with a small herd of Ayrshires whose names I know, whose personalities I know (first time I met "Lola," she was literally bounding up to her farmer partners and my family, just like a dog), whose milk I die for...along with a very monomaniacal nature (I know, those two do not go together). So if I can master one cheese, by one lineage, one tradition of making it, I'll feel content. Anyway, it's cow's milk alpine for me....until further notice. ;D
OH MY GOD. You're goats kill me! By the way, adding to the zaniness is that for me anyway, the movie played upside down...! So to see your sweet little comedians bounding around like, well, playful kids...and all upside down; laughed, hard, and thank you for the smile. Goats always do that to me, and I do love them. Except they're smarter than me.
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I hear you. Cows it is for you! My Jersey was definitely my best friend and I do love cows. The farm I visited recently had a cross of Dutch Belted with Scottish Highland and their ears had such long hair on them that they looked like little girl pigtails, you know the kind that's high on the head? It was such a cute look.
Enjoy your Ayrshires! Sorry the goat video was upside down. I forget about that. it's no upside down on my computer. Oh, and as far as my tommes.......it truly is all just luck at this point. Don't know if you saw the recent thread on which I opened 3 tommes and how one of them was full of blue..... sometimes I'm less lucky than other times.
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Hahahah - cracking up again, watching the vid. There's a part where one of your - sorry, is it oberhasli? - gets all jiggy and goes oblique on top of the platform before jumping off and running into the shelter. I don't know if I could even get any work done, as these guys would have me spellbound for hours....!
Blue - no, haven't checked your thread in awhile, will do that. I've one "tomme cave" with 3 of the 4 wheels in there doing really well, very nice coat of mold that is falling back and changing color nicely, with linens starting to come on. But the 4th, first time I put a tomme in my cave without any drying post-brine. Add to that, it's a far moister make than I usually do, wanted to experiment with a very moist pate. Blue is in several places, but in very tiny little specks. I always used to go bananas at this, and treat the wheels, but have to say, Oude Kaas has been an inspiration. I've seen some wheels in his NY cave(s) that were really wild looking, and the finished cheese looked like it came out beautifully well....so I'm leaving all of these alone and seeing what happens with competitive flora and cascading.
Will check out your thread now...thanks for the heads up!
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Yeah.....if you'd seen the blue shag carpeting look on mine you wouldn't worry at all about specks!
The goaties are really cute and a time distraction......they are Nigerian Dwarf so quite pocket sized. I just walked up to the barn to check my ewes who are due to lamb any time. Of course, since I was there I had to sit a while in the goat area and I got jumped on, nibbled on, and amused. Hard to find anything wrong with sitting in the sun with goaties running and bouncing around. Back to finalizing seed orders for the year......
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Nice life you've made, Tiarella. I do hope to visit at some point. :)