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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Rennet Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: rosawoodsii on November 09, 2012, 05:36:41 PM

Title: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: rosawoodsii on November 09, 2012, 05:36:41 PM
So, basking in the warmth of my first successful Camembert make, I proceeded to make another batch.  Right out of the gate I blew it.  I wasn't paying attention closely enough, and instead of addig 1/8 tsp Penicillium candidum, I grabbed the wrong packet and added 1/8 tsp Geotricum.  A minute later, I realized my mistake and tried to scoop it out of the pot (I generally leave everything on the top to rehydrate for a couple of minute), but I doubt that I got nearly enough out.

So, what can I expect with an overdose of Geotricum in my Camember? :-X
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: Oberhasli on November 11, 2012, 01:21:27 AM
I routinely add a pinch of geo (1/16 tsp)  to my goat milk cam's, so you should be safe.  Did you eventually add the pen. cad to the batch as well?  You might have to keep an eye on it when it starts to age so the geo doesn't overwhelm the pc. 

Bonnie

Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: Tiffany on November 11, 2012, 01:27:37 AM
I routinly ad geo and pen to all my camemberts.  Going on about 30 now and all are lovely.  Your good to go!
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: rosawoodsii on November 11, 2012, 03:25:25 AM
I did add the pen as well.  How will I know if the Geo is overwhelming the Penicillium?  Aren't they both white molds?
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: Tiffany on November 11, 2012, 03:29:39 AM
Proper salting will keep the geo at bay.  There is another post I just read somewhere that explained it all, but honestly I'm new nuff I don't know how to share it. 
I never have a problem.  I get a beautiful bloom.  Bald spots are the geo taking over, but salting it said keeps it from doing that
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: iratherfly on November 11, 2012, 07:58:15 AM
Joy, the Geo is creamy color, sleek and velvety when it shows up. It usually shows up before the PC and prepares the surface for stronger PC growth.

The Geo is slimy, wet; the PC is stark white and dry.  They never fail to show up.

If you see that the PC recedes and creamy color reveals from underneath it, that is a sign that the Geo growth more than the PC.  It should naturally happen later in the aging process (unless you made a thick fluffy white PC rind which isn't considered very good), but if it happens early on and you smell the beginning of ammonia, that means that the Geo is taking over.  Reduce temperature and humidity if you want to slow down the Geo and accelerate the PC. Do the opposite if you get too much thick fluffy PC and you can't see the Geo.
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: rosawoodsii on November 11, 2012, 01:03:11 PM
Excellent!  Thank you so much for the tips.  Since they are already becoming a little slimy, I'll be salting them today and moving them to a cooler place. 
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: iratherfly on November 11, 2012, 07:19:18 PM
How old are they? They should be salted well before they get slimy. Is your room very warm?
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: rosawoodsii on November 12, 2012, 12:01:35 AM
They were salted well, kept in an environment around 58 degrees or less (it fluctuates), but only a week old.  They seemed to have too much liquid and were still weeping quite a bit.  They're drier now.
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: rosawoodsii on November 16, 2012, 09:03:12 PM
Definitely an ammonia odor today.  I took the top off the container to reduce the humidity, and I'll salt them again. They're in the refrigerator and that's the coldest place I have.
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: Tiarella on November 16, 2012, 10:04:01 PM
There's a delicate balancing act around salting.  If you salt too much you'll end up with salty cheese as I did a few times.  The good news is that it still tastes good if you put it on bread or non-salty crackers.   :D
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: rosawoodsii on November 17, 2012, 01:49:50 AM
I haven't salted in several days, so I think I'm good on that.  Yeh, crackers can cover a multitude of sins. <g>
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: iratherfly on November 17, 2012, 05:06:17 AM
58°F is quite high, you want to be in the 52°-54° range. Sounds like a small difference but it makes a big impact.  If it's liquidy and ammoniated than you probably "over-cooked" it.  You should rapidly respond by cooling and drying it. These are not the types of cheese that are supposed to be liquidy AT ALL.

By the way, over-salting a cheese doesn't just make it salty; it makes it very dry and more importantly - it kills the Geo and PC.
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: mbox on November 17, 2012, 05:45:27 AM
Thanks for this information on the geo ... So does that mean i dont really need geo? Could a camembert made without geo and just only p. Candidum come right?
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: iratherfly on November 17, 2012, 06:20:07 AM
No. It may look Camembert-ish but geo is a key in Camembert. Camembert without it is like ketchup without sugar or a brand new car that came unpainted... You will get little or no paste processing, coloring or maturation. Poor aromatic properties. The rind will be fluffy, dray and stark white. It will also take longer for the PC to work because the Geo de-acidifies the surface for the PC. It's tricky to master but that's the craft of cheesemaking - growing all those microbes and directing them precisely to create texture, colors, aromas and flavors. Just practice it a few times and you will get this down.
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: rosawoodsii on November 17, 2012, 01:11:58 PM
58°F is quite high, you want to be in the 52°-54° range. Sounds like a small difference but it makes a big impact.  If it's liquidy and ammoniated than you probably "over-cooked" it.  You should rapidly respond by cooling and drying it. These are not the types of cheese that are supposed to be liquidy AT ALL.

By the way, over-salting a cheese doesn't just make it salty; it makes it very dry and more importantly - it kills the Geo and PC.

It was only at 58° for a couple of days.  It's been in the refrigerator (~45°) since then.  I've salted it 3 times.  There's a good bloom on it, but it's quite velvety, so I think that's the Geo growing.  Yesterday I took the lid off the container I was using for 2 or 3 hours, and then covered it loosely after that.

BTW, if Geo is essential to Camember making, why do the recipes I've seen always say "optional"?
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: rosawoodsii on November 28, 2012, 03:48:56 PM
So I felt the edges of my Camembert rounds and they're quite soft, though the center is firm.  I cut one open, and the edges are liquidy. Still tastes good, but I'm wondering if that's from the too-high temperature at the beginning, or from the overdose of Geotricum?  I have been battling ammoniation on these cheeses all along, and frequently remove the lid so they can dry out a bit.
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: mbox on November 28, 2012, 06:47:26 PM
So I felt the edges of my Camembert rounds and they're quite soft, though the center is firm.  I cut one open, and the edges are liquidy. Still tastes good, but I'm wondering if that's from the too-high temperature at the beginning, or from the overdose of Geotricum?  I have been battling ammoniation on these cheeses all along, and frequently remove the lid so they can dry out a bit.
i could imagine " too warm" is the answer. another thought too moist , which might at some stage also ending into a slipping rind...but these are my newby thoughts , maybe someone more knowledgable
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: bbracken677 on November 28, 2012, 07:26:54 PM
I have 3 cams that are almost ready...and the edges have toughened up a bit, but the center of the rounds are softening up. I cut one the other day, and they are almost ready...just the very middle "layer" is still a bit chalky, whereas the upper and bottom layers have turned that yellowish sort of color and are very creamy.

I sort of doubt it was the extra geo, but rather feel it was likely the early temp you mentioned.
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: rosawoodsii on November 28, 2012, 11:49:26 PM
What is the usual ripening sequence?  Obviously, soft at the edges isn't the first thing I should see, and bbracken677 said his edges had toughened up.  Should I look for that?  Does the center usually ripen and soften first?
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: bbracken677 on November 29, 2012, 01:30:43 AM
It should ripen from the rind in...one would assume evenly.

What I have found with my limited experience is that the "corners", so to speak, ripen first and then toughen up, and then the outer edge starts toughening up, sort of, before the cheese has finished ripening.

It may be that your edges will toughen up and then the center will begin to soften...Looking back, it appears that your make is about 3 weeks old? My first cams were triple cream and I think due to the added fat they took much longer to ripen. 
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: rosawoodsii on December 29, 2012, 11:03:03 PM
The cams were eaten at about 4 weeks, and they were quite good.  I have some that I made early December and they are definitely ready now.  I suspect the speedy ripening is for two reasons:  1) I'm using raw milk and 2) it's goat milk.  I've found that goat milk ages much more quckly than cow milk, and that appears to be across the board.  Jim Wallace of Cheesemaking.com (http://www.cheesemaking.com) says the raw milk also ripens more quickly than pasteurized, so that's a double reason for my quick makes.  I do keep them at pretty low (refrigerator) temperatures, so it's not too warm an environment.
Title: Re: Geotricum--what can I expect?
Post by: bbracken677 on December 30, 2012, 02:10:59 PM
Great outcome!  A cheese for your successful camemberts!   :)