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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => EQUIPMENT - Making Cheese => Topic started by: beeman on January 03, 2009, 03:20:15 PM

Title: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: beeman on January 03, 2009, 03:20:15 PM
There have been a number of posts regarding Ph and meters. At the moment the results seem to be very much 'up in the air'. So, please can we revisit and perhaps form some sort of opinion.
Is Ph measuring viable and valuable? Looking around there seems to be a lot of recipes (from professional sources) with Ph numbers well evident.
I did find another source for economic Ph meters at http://equipment.vista-products.com/index.html (http://equipment.vista-products.com/index.html) with good information on calibration here http://equipment.vista-products.com/Users_Guide_pH.html (http://equipment.vista-products.com/Users_Guide_pH.html)
Having read the latter carefully there are a couple of points I need help on. There is a 'constant' need to re-calibrate these meters before every use?
They only last for approximately one year, at which time they're toast? At this price I would suggest not expensive, but the more expensive units hardly seem to be cost effective for a small amount of cheese making if they need to be replaced each year as stated on Vista products site.
Regards beeman
Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: Cartierusm on January 03, 2009, 08:37:32 PM
You should recalibrate the good ones every month or at least check them with solution.

I have a high end one as I make wine. It was only $70 or so. Calibrating on the good ones is not hard, takes about 1 minute.

This is the one I have, although I didn't buy it here. Its water proof which is necessary.

http://morebeer.com/view_product/18707//pH_Meter_-_Phep_5

These last for years and when they do go you can just replace the sensor, on this model.

As for PH reading and adjusting in cheese making we are still researching it.
Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: Sing_cheese on January 07, 2009, 12:55:05 AM
Make sure that the one you buy isw waterproof! I found out the hard way as I drooped mine into a brine bath last week and it was immidiatly fried.  Also look for at least 3 digit accuarcy (e.g., 6.97) as I have tried a cheap replacement with only 1 decimal accuarcy and it is not sufficient for the notes I have been taking and some of the variaces are important as to see the direction and rate of acidification.

Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: wharris on January 21, 2009, 05:45:04 PM
My pH meter blues are coming to an end.  (I think)

Littany of issues...
Eratic readings, low battery issues, physically broken, new meter not calibrated...

I now have a new meter, have spare batteries, and now,  a ready supply of calibration fluid.

Damn that was painful
Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: Cartierusm on January 21, 2009, 07:53:25 PM
Glad to hear you're all set, I know it can be frustrating when everything goes wrong. For the calibration solution, I think you can save it. When I first got mine I just cut open the calibration pack and put the meter in it and that in a cup so it doesn't fall over, that way you can save the solution. I don't see why it wouldn't save as along as it was sealed.
Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: Tea on January 21, 2009, 08:30:55 PM
Beeman in regards to the necessitity of PH readings, there are varied opinions.  Some feel that to reproduce a constant product the reading are important, and that curd/whey readings are necessary to know the readiness of the cheese.  Other feel that cheesemakers have made cheese for century's without the aide of PH meters, and that knowing the curd is more important.
For me my jury is still out.  I don't possess a PH meter, but there are time when I am not getting a cheese to curd up properly, that I would like to know whether the ph is a factor.

So I guess you could say that I am fence sitting, as I am yet to come to a place where I think that a meter is essential or not in cheesemaking.

Hope that made sense.
Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: wharris on January 21, 2009, 08:43:45 PM
I will ads this to the pH discussion.

We humans have also given birth for thousands of years without the aid of doctors,  but are a lot more "successful" with them.

hmmmm.



Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: Tea on January 21, 2009, 09:37:36 PM
You have personal experience of this Wayne??  Do tell.   :D
Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: RRR on January 21, 2009, 09:44:20 PM
I've been on the fence as well. I am beginning to do farmstead cheese at a commercial level. The problem I am running into is, people tend to not want to be surprised. I kind of like the anticipation of wondering what a cheese is going to taste like. Many of my customers want to get the same taste everytime they purchase a certain kind of cheese. I suspect I will need a meter when my goats start to give milk again, so I am looking for the best place to buy, thanks for the update.
Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: wharris on January 21, 2009, 09:45:48 PM
:)  not first hand.    But I do have 2 of my own (http://vxxwgg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p7bf9_ZmvEwmuqvYOPpMVCc9N9Q0SVIgRTUPx1VAXpckQ4cuJJvJ3dATj8eK69b0ZD4aXqEHdIeY/IMG_0177.JPG), and was there every step of the way.

The nature of the pH conversation just reminded me of my conversation with our doctor back then.

I was in awe of all the "stuff" required to give birth. ultrasounds, fetal heart monitors,  lots of things that go "Bing".   ;)     
I remember saying to him at the time.  "How in the heck did humans survive for all those millennia without all this stuff?" 

His answer was simply:   "many died"

I'm not sure why,  but I felt there was a conversational parallel here.
Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: Tea on January 21, 2009, 09:54:38 PM
I was having more of a giggle at the "royal" use of the words "We humans".  I could just see your wife reading that, and rolling her eye's and saying "yeah right!".   ;)
Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: wharris on January 21, 2009, 09:57:33 PM
If memory serves, there where more words that "yeah right!" uddered by her back then!.
But you would be right. that might have even warrented a smack to the back of my head.




(uddered,  oh man i'm on a roll today...)
Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: Tea on January 21, 2009, 10:09:12 PM
I was thinking the same thing.  Although after feeding for two years, I am beginning to feel like a cow.  ::)  Actually he's 2 today.  Ahhh the joys of mother hood.
Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: Tea on January 21, 2009, 11:02:57 PM
Ok so getting back to PH, we are still yet to determine the absolute necessitity of taking readings.  I wonder if Hoffman remembers the factories taking PH reading during the cheese process?
Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: wharris on January 21, 2009, 11:10:06 PM
I will bet my next paycheck that every commercial cheese venture  in the US knows the pH of its cheese at all the important milestones.

I would go a bit further and guess that pH (a key indicator of acidification) would be a condition by which various steps occur.

Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: Tea on January 21, 2009, 11:19:30 PM
mmm ok point taken.  So is PH more to do with the final flavour of the cheese, or the condition of the curd cooking process before proceding to the next step?
Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: wharris on January 21, 2009, 11:24:04 PM
"The single most important factor in the control of cheese quality is the acid production in the vat, because this largely determines the characteristic basic structure of the cheese and, for most cheese varieties, pH. Any specific cheese variety can be classified by its normal range of calcium content and pH. The pH at draining also determines proportions of residual chymosin (calf rennet) and plasmin in the cheese."

Blah Blah Blah,  it goes on an on and on.
"A Controlled Approach to Cheese Technology1 (http://jds.fass.org/cgi/content/abstract/67/8/1632)" -

Anyway,  the more i read, A> the dumber i feel, and B> the more important pH seems to be.
Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: Cartierusm on January 21, 2009, 11:45:06 PM
But remember Quinlan here he's a professional and never touched a PH meter, but he was making a specific kind of cheese for a long time. So if you're a pro and make the same cheese for years a PH might not be necessary but for us Humans it's a plus.

RRR, when you do get a PH meter don't get the hand held type like this http://morebeer.com/view_product/18707//pH_Meter_-_Phep_5 , this is the one I have and it's great but can only measure liquid, as far as I know. If you get one like this http://morebeer.com/view_product/18715//Milwaukee_pH_Meter_w_ATC, with a probe you can actually measure the curd, which is whats important. I could push curds up into the sensor but it would be messy and hard to clean. I'm thinking of getting the probe kind.
Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: wharris on January 21, 2009, 11:53:13 PM
I thought about that,  but milk chemistry changes over time.  Any commercial endeavor that is concerned with consistancy of it's product simply HAS modify its process to account for that.  I would think that measuring pH is key to that.

Again,  that is only from my ongoing readings,  not my personal experience. 

If Quinlan insists he uses no pH meter,  i will have to defer.  I will be surprised, but will defer.



Title: Re: pH Meters, Again!
Post by: Cartierusm on January 21, 2009, 11:58:05 PM
Oh, I agree with you Wayne, I mean it takes like two seconds to check it, so why not.