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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => STANDARD METHODS - Aging Cheese => Topic started by: WhiteSageFarms on April 01, 2011, 04:17:58 AM

Title: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: WhiteSageFarms on April 01, 2011, 04:17:58 AM
Can anyone tell me why Clostridium botulinum bacteria isn't a risk for us when we vacuum pack our cheeses to age them? Logic tells me it should grow, due to the lack of oxygen in the vac'd and sealed package.

Thanks in advance for any answers!  :)

~Laurie
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: Tomer1 on April 01, 2011, 05:49:34 AM
Leave a bit of moisture in the vaccum and put the cheese  in a hot room for a week or so to incubate and you have a good chance of growing it given you have a few viable spores.
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: zenith1 on April 01, 2011, 01:29:02 PM
probably due to both the salt and the acid environment of cheese making would be my guess.
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: OlJarhead on April 02, 2011, 02:37:42 PM
I thought I read somewhere that botulism can't grow in a vacuum which is why (partly) we can.  Never heard of it as an issue in cheese though.
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: MrsKK on April 02, 2011, 06:22:33 PM
Although I can't cite a source, I have to say from experience that it is the acidity of cheese that prevents botulism from growing.  That's why fruits can be canned in a hot water bath - they are high in acid - while fruits vegetables and meats need to be canned in a pressure cooker, which increases the temperature way beyond what the botulism organism needs to live and thrive.

While a hot water bath-sealed mason jar isn't exactly a vacuum, there isn't much free air in there and botulism thrives if there isn't high enough acidity.

(Modified for correction)
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on April 03, 2011, 01:42:51 AM
Although rare, botulism can occur in cheeses and cheese products.

Botulism In Cheese (http://www.annals.org/content/125/7/558.full.pdf+html)

There currently are seven known types of Clostridium botulinum bacteria. These differ in proteolytic activity, tolerance to salt, minimum growth temperature and resistance to heat.

The proteolytic type A, B and F grow between 55 and 122 F, with most rapid growth occurring at 95F. They produce very heat-resistant spores which are a major concern in the processing of low-acid foods. They digest proteins in foods and produce a foul odor. Type A toxin is more lethal than the others, but it is a protein which is easily inactivated by heating at 180F for 10 minutes. The toxin can be absorbed into the blood stream through the digestive tract but also through respiratory mucous membranes. That means it can be contracted by inhalation as well, so don’t keep sniffing stinky spoiled food.

Inactive C. botulinum spores are commonly found in soil and water and are relatively harmless. The problem occurs when the spores germinate. As the vegetative cells grow they become overpopulated, die, and produce the deadly neurotoxin that causes botulism. Ironically, when starter bacteria die, they too release proteolytic enzymes (without the deadlt toxin).

Acid level is a primary factor. A pH near 7 favors the growth of C. botulinum, while growth is inhibited at a pH of 4.6 or lower. Note – the keyword here is “inhibited”. Slower growth means the bacteria won’t die and release toxin as quickly. Although low-acid vegetables and fish have been the chief culprits, higher-acidity foods such as tomatoes have also been involved. Inadequate processing can permit the growth of molds, yeasts or bacteria, which in turn can raise the pH enough to permit the growth of C. botulinum.

Another important condition affecting the growth of C. botulinum is the presense of oxygen. These organisms can't grow if air or free oxygen is present in their microenvironment (the area immediately next to them). This area is so small that it is not readily observed. Therefore, it is possible to have conditions develop in a food system when it appears that lots of air is available, but in reality there are areas where no air is present and anaerobic organisms, can develop.
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: WhiteSageFarms on April 03, 2011, 06:52:40 AM
Actually it's the opposite- the bacteria produces it's deadly toxin in environments devoid of oxygen, which is what vacuum packing does.  ;)

I thought I read somewhere that botulism can't grow in a vacuum which is why (partly) we can.  Never heard of it as an issue in cheese though.
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: WhiteSageFarms on April 03, 2011, 07:12:32 AM
Thanks for the info and the link. I read the article and it's about canned cheese sauce that appears to have been left unrefrigerated for 8 days, and possibly contaminated by some potatoes that were processed near the cheese sauce...  I'm still searching for an answer- now that I think of it, there's a Food Science professor who is sitting in on the Meat Science class I'm in, so I think I'll hit him up for some answers on Monday. He's from Washington State University and is involved with the creamery there. They produce an awesome cheddar cheese that's vacuum packed into cans, which sounds awful, but it's devine. It originated at the onset of WW2, when the manager of the creamery wanted to send cheese to the troops. It's so good that it's still produced the same way today. It's named "Cougar Gold."  I have a good feeling that he'll have an answer, I'll post it when I find out.

I appreciate the info you posted, it's really pretty interesting stuff. Scarey, but interesting.

~Laurie

Although rare, botulism can occur in cheeses and cheese products.

Botulism In Cheese ([url]http://www.annals.org/content/125/7/558.full.pdf+html[/url])

Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: linuxboy on April 03, 2011, 07:39:19 AM
It's an easy answer made complicated by bacteriology in general and dairy science and contamination specifically. To put it simply, the combination of raw material, handling, bacterial ecosystem, and affinage make it difficult for botulism spores to gain a foothold and to grow.

Botulism requires a nutrient-rich medium, one in which it can move, and one that has good conditions. Those good conditions are a low salt content, a high pH, and proper temp. Cheese matches few of these, and moreover, cheese bacteria tend to outcompete botulism.

For example, during the initial stage, when milk is fresh, those lactic bacteria multiply so quickly that botulism never gets a chance. And if it did get a chance, the acidity becomes low rather quickly. And then after the acidity, there's the salt. Botulism is inhibited at 4-6%, and I'm talking about pretty drastic inhibition.

Then after that you're stuck with a pretty solid block of protein and fat. If botulism is inside, it has little food. It's not like soup or processed cheese. And it can't move to find food.

And then suppose you have spores on the surface due to post-make contamination. If you do that, ok, then there's a chance. Except not. What would they eat? Nothing, the rind is dry. And it has all sorts of bacteria and molds on it, and yeast, even when vacuum packed. And then you have the affinage. After a couple of months, it's not really an issue anyway. And the botulism can't ever make enough toxin to be a real issue. In washed rind cheeses, it's possible, except in classic washed rind, you have many generations of bacteria that kill spores. b linens, S xylosum, etc.

So there you have it. If you approach it from a HACCP point of view in terms of the contamination vectors, it's tough to contaminate. Even if you do contaminate, there's so much stacked against botulism that it can't grow. It's not simple, you can't just say, just because the environment is anaerobic, botulism will grow, or because the pH is a certain level, it won't grow. You have to look at the bacterial ecosystem, the media, and everything else, to make a determination of risk vector and threat probability.
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: MrsKK on April 03, 2011, 02:47:02 PM
Brian - I modified my post with the verbage that I intended...

Linuxboy, are you truly human?  When I read your posts, it amazes me how much information you have stored in your databanks! 

All in good fun - I certainly don't want to miff you!
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: OlJarhead on April 03, 2011, 03:05:00 PM
Brian - I modified my post with the verbage that I intended...

Linuxboy, are you truly human?  When I read your posts, it amazes me how much information you have stored in your databanks! 

All in good fun - I certainly don't want to miff you!

Agreed 100%

Didn't you say you taught cheese making in WA?  If so perhaps I need to take a field trip! ;)
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: tananaBrian on April 03, 2011, 03:11:34 PM
Linuxboy, are you truly human?  When I read your posts, it amazes me how much information you have stored in your databanks! 
Agreed 100%
Didn't you say you taught cheese making in WA?  If so perhaps I need to take a field trip! ;)

If LB wrote a book, I'd be all over it like brie on a cracker...

Brian
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: ArnaudForestier on April 03, 2011, 03:26:14 PM

If LB wrote a book, I'd be all over it like brie on a cracker...

Brian

Methinks, let's all keep our spreading knives ready...
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: OlJarhead on April 03, 2011, 03:32:28 PM

If LB wrote a book, I'd be all over it like brie on a cracker...

Brian

Methinks, let's all keep our spreading knives ready...

What a grand idea!  LB? 
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: ArnaudForestier on April 03, 2011, 03:40:12 PM
Aw, come on, folks...it's really not a big deal.  Just grab every scientific, cultural and historical text, likely, related to dairy, husbandry and cheese making, retain it fully after a cursory first run, and implement and improve upon it in an energy output rivaling Rabelais's Gargantua and Pantagruel, and you, too, can opine on anything known to turophilic mankind - as easily as if it were rudimentary and ubiquitous knowledge. ;D
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: OlJarhead on April 03, 2011, 03:43:36 PM
Aw, come on, folks...it's really not a big deal.  Just grab every scientific, cultural and historical text, likely, related to dairy, husbandry and cheese making, retain it fully after a cursory first run, and implement and improve upon it in an energy output rivaling Rabelais's Gargantua and Pantagruel, and you, too, can opine on anything known to turophilic mankind - as easily as if it were rudimentary and ubiquitous knowledge. ;D

Now THAT is kinda funny :)  I must be reading several forums and books (mostly on History and Homesteading) and understand the challenge of doing just that!!!  But it's funny because I can fully relate and appreciate the Knowledge LinuxBoy clearly has (as is obvious many if not most or all here do).
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: ArnaudForestier on April 03, 2011, 03:55:40 PM
Now THAT is kinda funny :)


KINDA funny? 

That's it.  I'm going to go read "Syneresis of submerged single grains and curd rheology (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T7C-41F5Y4P-8&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2000&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1703864872&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=6788e46c628bd80c662b572f9a7b0d1c&searchtype=a)" for laughs.  This place is a morgue.
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: tananaBrian on April 03, 2011, 09:02:20 PM
Aw, come on, folks...it's really not a big deal.  Just grab every scientific, cultural and historical text, likely, related to dairy, husbandry and cheese making, retain it fully after a cursory first run, and implement and improve upon it in an energy output rivaling Rabelais's Gargantua and Pantagruel, and you, too, can opine on anything known to turophilic mankind - as easily as if it were rudimentary and ubiquitous knowledge. ;D

...I only had to look up one big word  ;)

Brian
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: ArnaudForestier on April 03, 2011, 10:12:08 PM
Glad I've done my part to keep at least one of the 170,000 words of the English language from falling into desuetude. ;)

"I also wanted to attack - this is saying the same thing, really - the contemporary idea that there is something noble about the inarticulate hero.  About James Dean and all his literary children and grandchildren.  I don't admire beats, bums, junkies, psychopaths and inarticulates.  i feel sorry for them."

- John Fowles, Conversations with John Fowles
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: WhiteSageFarms on April 06, 2011, 05:58:56 AM
linuxboy,

Thank you so much for the information... I appreciate your reply very much. This is one I am saving.

Best regards,
Laurie

It's an easy answer made complicated by bacteriology in general and dairy science and contamination specifically. To put it simply, the combination of raw material, handling, bacterial ecosystem, and affinage make it difficult for botulism spores to gain a foothold and to grow. ...

Title: C. botulinum .. Again!
Post by: JayW on March 09, 2012, 09:38:37 PM
I was just reading some back posts on the forum here and just had to jump in here on the botulism thing.
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=6794.0;last_msg=48547 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=6794.0;last_msg=48547)
I totally agree with L-B on a properly made cheese being very difficult for C.botulinm to set up housekeeping within due to the environment of a properly made cheese.
HOWEVER.
I have seen some real science projects in home cheese making where things have not gone well. Especially failed fermentations with plenty of lactose and moisture in the curds when they get pressed. I do suspect that this would be an ideal environment for some stray spores to get going in. This would be even worse if they decided to plastic pak the cheese. Not even mentionioning undersalting etc.
Maybe I am just playing the devils advocate here and perhaps should focus on preaching about proper fermentations and acid targets but just throwing it out there.

   .......  jim@cheesemaking.com
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 09, 2012, 11:19:19 PM
It is unlikely that an infected cheese would ever make it to an edible stage. C. botulinum produces a TON of gas and would most likely just explode the cheese. And it has a rotten egg smell that is a clear warning. This shows up every now and then in the grocery stores, often canned beans, where the can is obviously deformed by the internal pressure of the gas.

The botulinum toxin is easily destroyed with cooking. But the best advice is If it stinks, don't eat it. ;)
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: DeejayDebi on March 11, 2012, 11:57:45 PM
It has always amazed me how much of the scientific stuff Pav, Ed  and Francous can remember. I've read it absorbed it, made tables from it all and forgot it like where I left my keys and they just pull it out like it's on the tips of their fingers. It's even funnier when someone quotes something I did and it doesn't ring any bells - must be getting old!

In any event I for one would just like to say you are truely loved and appreciated!

{{{{{{{BIG HUGS!}}}}}}}}}
Title: Re: Vacuum Plastic Sealing - Why No Botulism?
Post by: stephmtl222 on March 10, 2021, 02:39:11 PM
It is unlikely that an infected cheese would ever make it to an edible stage. C. botulinum produces a TON of gas and would most likely just explode the cheese. And it has a rotten egg smell that is a clear warning. This shows up every now and then in the grocery stores, often canned beans, where the can is obviously deformed by the internal pressure of the gas.

The botulinum toxin is easily destroyed with cooking. But the best advice is If it stinks, don't eat it. ;)

Just in case you come here in a search of information about botulism risks with vaccum packed cheese, please note that clostridium botulinum is not detectable by sight or smell.
« c. botulinum contaminated product may appear to be safe (no off odors or appearance), even when it may not be safe any longer. C. bot also grows better when it does not need to compete with spoilage organism growth. » - Dr. Londa Nwadike, former UVM Extension Food Safety Specialist, June 2013



See the link bellow for a good review on the risk of c botulinum contamination of vaccum packed cheeses. In summary, assuming proper cheese production, the risk is not zero but generally low. Some varieties have a little more risks, depending on cheese salt-in-moisture/water activity, moisture on a fat-free basis, pH.

https://www.specialistcheesemakers.co.uk/media/Download.aspx?MediaId=151 (https://www.specialistcheesemakers.co.uk/media/Download.aspx?MediaId=151)