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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cooked (Swiss) => Topic started by: Smurfmacaw on April 22, 2013, 09:48:30 PM

Title: Gruyere
Post by: Smurfmacaw on April 22, 2013, 09:48:30 PM
I decided there was too much room in my aging fridge so decided to make a gruyere. 

3 Gal Creamline Milk
3/8 tsp thermo starter
1/2 tsp CaCl (diluted)
3/8 tsp calf rennet


Innoculated at 90.2 degrees.  Held for 40 minutes.  Temp drop to 90.0 degrees.  Stirred in CaCl then rennet.  (My rennet appears to be fairly strong but I undershot a tiny bit I think).  Floc time was 20 minutes.  Let set for 50 minutes.  Cut to 1/4 inch cubes.  Let rest 5 min. Gently stir and raise temp to 122 over one hour.  I was pretty close on the temp, hit 122 at 59 min and 50 seconds.   Now for a 20 minute rest at temp and I'll start the pressing process.....More to follow.

Pressed at .5 psi in 122 degree whey for 15 min.Sstarting to knit but lots of openings
flipped and redressed and pressed at 1.75 psi for 30 min under whey.  Knit looks better.
flipped and redressed and pressing at 1.75 psi for 1 hour (not under whey)  Knit looks pretty good, no obvious flaws.

Planning on 3 psi for the next press for four hours. Then again at 3 psi overnight. I used an 8 inch mould and now I think I should have used perhaps a 6 inch which I didn't have.  It's a little thinner than I would personally like.
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Smurfmacaw on April 23, 2013, 02:34:12 AM
Anybody got a link to Alp's washed rind bible?  Not seeming to find it.

thanks in advance

Mike
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: WovenMeadows on April 23, 2013, 11:47:44 AM
Anybody got a link to Alp's washed rind bible?  Not seeming to find it.

thanks in advance

Mike

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10633.0.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10633.0.html)
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Smurfmacaw on April 24, 2013, 10:56:53 PM
Well,

the plan was to do  washed rind on this one but my youngest daughter had to have her appendix removed so I had to leave town to be with her.  My wife removed it from the brine and is air drying and flipping it daily.  I should be home on Saturday, can I start the washing process then or is it too late and I should just treat it normally?
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Tiarella on April 25, 2013, 01:23:58 AM
Well,

the plan was to do  washed rind on this one but my youngest daughter had to have her appendix removed so I had to leave town to be with her.  My wife removed it from the brine and is air drying and flipping it daily.  I should be home on Saturday, can I start the washing process then or is it too late and I should just treat it normally?

ooh, SO sorry to hear about your daughter.  Hope her recovery goes smoothly!  maybe some cheese to help her strength return.   :-\
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Smurfmacaw on April 25, 2013, 06:16:20 AM
Thanks for the good thoughts.  She is doing awesome....went to the Monterey pier tonight and had much seafood with her and her college roommate.  Surgical techniques are way  better than when I was her age.  She's always been my hobby buddy so I'm sure she'll help me work on technique this summer.  I think I'll start thinking about the SD county fair next year to get some feedback...
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: JeffHamm on April 25, 2013, 06:59:31 PM
Glad to hear her recovery is going well.  I suspect you can start your washing a bit late.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: tnbquilt on April 25, 2013, 08:00:18 PM
I have started mine washing late, because I didn't know any better, and it worked out fine. It takes a little extra time to get that dry rind moist again but what's a few extra days?
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Smurfmacaw on April 28, 2013, 12:28:19 AM
Got back this afternoon and the cheese dried nicely.  Had two patches of fuzz that I removed with cheese cloth dipped in brine.  Started the first wash with a wash solution made of 1 cup distilled water, 1/4 cup white wine and 1 Tsp salt.  Think I need to get a B. Linens culture and add to the wash or just hope the ambient species are good enough?  Smelled really good though, really like cheese that I'd like to eat.
Title: Photo of the Gruyere
Post by: Smurfmacaw on April 28, 2013, 11:06:12 PM
Here it is after washing the second side.  Looks like it may take a few times to make a good schmear.  Smells good though.  How hard should I sweat the small brown spots?
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: cowboycheese on April 29, 2013, 03:34:18 AM
My baby Swiss got a few brown spots too besides the random colored fuzzies. The wash got rid of the fuzz but the small brown spots stayed there at least until I got a slightly stiffer brush. I added a bit of vinegar to the wash too hoping the acid would help. The spots are still there but not as dark and they didn't spread. After reading and lurking here for some time, I've come to the conclusion that I need to inoculate the wash with what I want and not let the random household wild things take over. Somehow the stuff growing in the home doesn't sound so appetizing compared to appropriately inoculated cheese caves. I think I read that Boofer uses PLA in some of his washes to force the issue (example: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11295.msg87054.html#msg87054 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11295.msg87054.html#msg87054))

I'm watching this thread for an expert diagnosis...
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Alpkäserei on May 01, 2013, 10:58:45 PM
Careful with acid on the rind. Yes, this does help 'wipe off' the moldy spots, but also it will kill or at least stunt the things we want to have growing. Wine has a mild acid content already. I hesitate to use more acid than this, unless things get seriously out of hand.

But even then, I would't use vinegar. One cheese I had at home got seriously moldy, but I reclaimed it without acid. I scraped off the mold and put it back on a pretty strict washing regiment. Not a spot of the mold ever showed up again (unfortunately it had already put a little flavor in the rind, and left a dark spot that will never go away)

I prefer not to use any commercial cultures for washing -I even have left off of commercial cultures for the make, and have gone over to isolating my own wild cultures. For me, it's something of an art, a craft. I like to get my flavors from the world around me, like my ancestors before me did. That way, I feel like my products are a little more connected to the world from which they come. But not everyone wants to do that. It takes some diligence to get your own wild strains of Linens going, and some amount of knowledge to be able to isolate the ones you want. As for the stuff growing in the home, It's the same stuff you buy anyway...

But also, with all of this comes the fact that my system is geared to the fact that I make cheese every day. The cultures I make are highly perishable -I can keep them stored for very long at all, they aren't freeze dried or anything like that, just liquids full of live, hungry, happy bacteria that need to be used up within a pretty small window (like, a time span of a few hours). SO that means my methods might not be practical for you, unless you are the diligent farmer or farm wife that takes the leftover milk from the family cow and makes a batch several times a week.

Now, about the gruyere make,

I suspect you should have let it coagulate a bit longer. For example:
Our Alpkäse is an extra-hard cheese, and it coagulates with a certain amount of rennet for 30 minutes. Our rennet is quality controlled so that we know the proper amounts to use, we don't use the floc method but as I understand that system, we use a multiplier of 2. Makers of Gruyere using the same amount of rennet would typically coagulate their cheese for around 45 minutes. Other than that, the making process for the 2 cheeses are almost identical. So, that would imply a multiplier for true Swiss Gruyere of about 3.

So taking your floc time of 20 minutes, you should have coagulated for about an hour. (You used slightly less rennet or weaker rennet than would typically be used)

Also, the strength of the curd we go for in the Alps is A LOT thinner than what I see most people aiming for in America on the same cheese. This means that the cheese you get from Switzerland will often be a little bit harder than their American counterparts. I have noticed this to be true, especially with Emmentaler.


Now for brown spots,

If you are talking about what I think, these are natural results of the Linens. As the linens do their thing, they produce pigment. The color change in the rind will often be spotty at first, and in some strains it might never be consistent. Some strains are pink, some are bright orange, some are deep red, some are a sort of burnt orange, and some are golden brown. Mine are the golden brown variety, many commercial cultures will be red or orange.

Unless you have good reason to believe the brown spots are the work of mold or yeast, let them be and let them spread.

Always remember with the Schmier, we want to cheese to eventually change color. And when we get spotty color, it's our job to work up those bugs and spread them around.
Title: Latest Photos
Post by: Smurfmacaw on May 10, 2013, 04:37:28 PM
After seven days of washing this is what it's starting to look like.  I assume the brownish red is linens.  Any idea on the darker spots.  There is no particular smell really.  Getting a little bit of gooeyness when I wash now.

Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Smurfmacaw on May 10, 2013, 04:38:21 PM
And the other side.

Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: High Altitude on May 12, 2013, 01:43:15 AM
Wow that looks exactly like the first ever cheese I made...a gruyere also.  I had NO idea what to expect and (being wary of any molds whatsoever), I dry brushed the surface raw for the first 2-3 weeks until there wasn't a sign of any living thing on it!  Well I aged it out and got a thin, very salty, but pretty tasty result.  Fortunately, it is edible and makes a wonderful grating cheese :-), despite the horrific treatment I unknowingly bestowed upon it....poor thing  :o.

I now know I can try this make again and work at a successful rind and better quality result.

Nice work!  I look forward to more pics as it develops.
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Smurfmacaw on May 12, 2013, 02:14:39 AM
Yeah,

I got a late start washing the rind (and it's my first washed rind cheese) so I'm not sure what to expect.  Since I started washing it I haven't had any fuzzies growing on it at all and I'm starting to get a fair amount of goo but it dries out between washings even in 85% RH.  I suppose I could wash it twice a day to encourage the Linens which doesn't seem to be exactly exploding on it (I even put a pinch of linens in the wash water just in case).  I'm trying to leave it out to breath for a while each day just in case the O2 level in the "cave" is getting low between openings.

Next Wed I'll have a little time and I'll do a Mutchsli and do the washing right.  My youngest daughter will be home from college and will be able to babysit the cheese for a quick weekend away with my wife.  I think I'll try Alp's technique for adding in two stages.  I can get raw milk only on Sundays so that's difficult for me and I'm not sure about letting it sit in the fridge for a week until I have time for practicing cheese making techniques.  I'm going to continue to wash it daily until Sunday and then drop to two or three times per week.

I'll keep the pics coming as it matures.  I plan on aging it for at least three months though after reading the treatise on the significant change that occurs at the six month point I'm tempted to let go for a while.  I think I'll tide myself over with the Mutschli to keep me from eating it.
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Alpkäserei on May 18, 2013, 02:05:19 AM
I would recommend more alcohol  :P

When I have spots like that or problem with molds that don't go away, some times I just wash with straight wine for a few days. That will take care of things.

I'm also beginning to lean toward a heavier wine concentration in general. I like the deeper color tones you get by doing that.
Really what convinced me was a 3 year old Alpkäse I received in the mail, with its beautiful golden brown rind.
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Smurfmacaw on May 18, 2013, 02:18:15 PM
How aggressively do you brush the rind?  I'm trying to hit a happy medium between merely swooshing the morge around and exfoliating the darned thing.  I'm trying to brush just hard enough to get some gooiness worked up each time.  I haven't found a brush I really like yet.  Natural bristle brushes seem to be either really stiff and I'd remove cheese or too soft and I'd just tickle it.  I did see one somewhere on line that looked like the one you were using in your picture but it was 6 inches in diameter.  Great if I were making 20kg cheeses but not for my little 1.5kg cheeses.
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Alpkäserei on May 18, 2013, 04:06:38 PM
you dont 'dig in" at all. i just wash the goop around, and let the bacteria, alcohol, and weak acid of the wine do all the hard work. the goal is to create as smooth a rind as possible, and when you scrub to hard you can sometimes get grainy.
i definitely prefer a natural bristle brush. id go for the soft just tickle it brush. thats what i look for. i just want to smaer around the goop without digging in
i know most leave the nubbins. i use solid forms. aits a spring form open on bottom and top we call a Järb. i have never seen forms with holes used by Swiss cheesemakers. those who make smaller cheeses use a tall form thats like a tube, no holes. these we call Vätterli or Vätteren. but we trim off any flash, like around the edge of the form. we like our cheese perfect. which is actually good for practical reasons. it makes washing easier and more consistent .
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Smurfmacaw on May 20, 2013, 03:19:11 PM
Straight wine wash and it's getting more golden.  I'll get a pic in a couple of days.  Getting some white powder but not sure if it's salt or mold.  Since this is fairly thin, only 2 inches thick, should I wax it eventually or will the rind keep the moisture in well enough I don't end up with a solid piece of rind in 7 months?
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Alpkäserei on May 20, 2013, 04:41:00 PM
2 inches is quite thin, it won't get a solid rind but it would get rather hard.

But right now I am eating away at a 3 year old Hobelkäse, which you would think is terribly hard I'm sure.

I've never waxed. I don't really know what to say honestly. I'm afraid to say 'wax it' because I don't like wax, but I'm afraid if you don't do something, it will be harder than you want it.

I would say if you keep it in the proper high humidity -like not under 85%- for the duration, it should still be good, just maybe harder than you might be used to.

White powder happens. At this point, hard telling what it is but just pay it no mind. Keep washing like normal. If it is geo, it is OK. If it is salt, it will go away eventually. If it is PC it will die. If you are washing with straight wine, I don't see how PC could survive anyway. Even geo in that kind of environment doesn't tend to do so well. I had a cheese that had a nice geo coating, but someone left the light on  >:( and it got PC on it so I had to wash with pure wine to disinfect. The geo all died from that.
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Smurfmacaw on May 21, 2013, 05:46:06 PM
It was more of a learning batch to begin with but in all honesty I like harder cheeses so I'll just play it by ear.  I saw some pictures of a Hobelkase on the internet somewhere and it looked quite good.  Planed into nice thin curls.

The white dust went away with the wine wash and it's still fairly supple so it hasn't dried out yet.  I'll continue washing twice a week for a while and see what happens.  If it seems like it's loosing too much moisture then I'll cream coat it or even wax it for a while.  I'd really like to let it go for at least six months before I try it.

My humidity stays around 85% normally so it should be pretty good to go.  As I put more and more cheese in there the humidity should remain stable.  I'm going to make another one soon with three gallons of raw milk.  With a 7.5 inch mold that come out to a really nice form factor (I think anyway).

cheers

Mike

I'll post another pic to show the rind development.  Haven't had any new invaders for a while now.  I'm hoping the Mutschli benefits from not have a week's delay between finish and start of wash.
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Alpkäserei on May 21, 2013, 07:23:20 PM
Another tactic for Gruyere is to make a salt rind. This is probably how most of the larger producers in Switzerland do it.

I have had much more luck with a salt rub, rather than a brine wash. When you rub with dry salt, moisture is drawn from the cheese and the air around it to the rind, so you do still develop a schmier. This is what I would do if I wanted a lighter, thinner rind without the b. linen flavor.
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Smurfmacaw on May 22, 2013, 09:24:35 PM
Latest pics for rind development.  I gave it a couple of days of washing with a nice Pinot Grigio so I guess it'll speak Swiss German with an Italian accent.  The B. Linens isn't exactly exploding across the surfaces but nothing else is volunteering either.  It is getting more golden in color and still feels fairly supple so I don't think it's in danger of drying out just yet.  I'm going back to a twice weekly wash with this one with an increased wine ratio.  Once I get my pH meter debacle sorted out, don't get me going about Extech customer service, I'll see what the pH of the surface is.  If it turns out to be too low to make the linens happy do you think I should innoculate it with PLA to raise the pH a little or just let it do its thing for a while to see what happens.  Currently it smells a little fruity from the wine but no major sweatsocks smell or other aromas to speak of.  Still not sure if the white on the edges is salt or GC.  I guess I could use my organic salt detector but that might introduce other, less desirable, flora  ::)

Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Smurfmacaw on June 22, 2013, 02:50:49 AM
Well, in a fit of playing with my new cheese tryer I sampled the cheese even though I know it's very immature.  The texture is right on already....I was kind of shocked.  The flavor is very mild but it is indicative of what's to come.  7 or 8 months it will be really good......if I wait longer then it will be awesome.  Right now I've got "issues" with RH in the cave.  I may either wax this one or maybe use cheese coating to keep it from drying out too much although I really like the really hard alpine cheeses.  I just got in a Beaufort d' Alpage and a Gruyere d' Alpage and they were awesome......I think I need to salt my cheeses more though....I seem to really like really really salty cheeses.
Title: Re: Gruyere
Post by: Tiarella on June 22, 2013, 10:42:06 AM
You could rub a couple coatings of pure coconut oil on it.  just check a few days to make sure all surfaces have a thick enough coating and that will slow/stop moisture loss.  That's what I've been doing because my cave is pretty dry and I'm out of room to do stuff like pans of water, fans, etc.  Coconut oil melts at a warm room temp or in a pan of hot water and is solid at aging temps.  I haven't yet seen any mold grow under it.  It does need to be redone as needed during longer agings.