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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cooked (Swiss) => Topic started by: woodsman on May 24, 2012, 11:38:57 PM

Title: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: woodsman on May 24, 2012, 11:38:57 PM
I basically followed this Alpine cheese recipe: http://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-alpine-cheese-making-recipe/ (http://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-alpine-cheese-making-recipe/) with some variations.

I used raw milk,  "yogurt" made with TA61, and since cooling 6 gals of milk down to 68 F wasn't really feasible I went for about an hour of inoculation time with milk at ~90F, then after coagulating it at 10 min floc x3 I cut it into 1/2" cubes and then warmed it up to 120F.

I tried pressing the curds under whey with 20 lb weight but after 30 minutes when I tried to flip it  the curds mostly separated. I'm trying pressing it again but with not much hope. I'm guessing that if I put the mass of curds in the press it's going to stick to the cheesecloth real good but otherwise it won't mat together.

Since my pH meter calibrates at pH4 in pH 4  buffer solution but then shows drinking water pH around 3.5 I have no way of reliably establishing the acidity of the whey.


What could be a cause of curds not matting together? Anything I can still do to rectify the situation?
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: linuxboy on May 24, 2012, 11:54:40 PM
Your curd size was possibly too big for the scald speed, creating moisture gradients and overly dehydrating the outside layers of the curds. They'll have trouble fusing unless you crank up the PSI. Soak cloth in vinegar/water blend (or spray), and try to press with as much weight as you have. it'll come together again, just not optimally.
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: woodsman on May 25, 2012, 12:17:17 AM
Thanks, I'll try that.

I brought it up from 90F to 120F in one hour - should I do it slower next time?
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: linuxboy on May 25, 2012, 12:29:23 AM
That's not too bad, but it depends on the rate. Should be slow at first, dry out the curds, then heat to finish. 60 mins seems long if you stirred the entire time.
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: woodsman on May 25, 2012, 01:20:26 AM
Took me 35 minutes to bring it from 90 to 100 than another 25 minutes with more heat to go to 120.  Did I do it right by chance? :)

Stirring for an hour is not a big thing. I learned while using a hand cranked grain mill that reading a book while turning a crank helps make it go faster...

I pressed the curds for about 30 minutes at 2 psi wrapped in cheesecloth soaked in vinegar and the curd didn't stick to it. The wheel is very fragile though and it doesn't take much to chip away curds from the edges.

I flipped the wheel, rinsed the cheesecloth, reapplied vinegar to it, rewrapped it and see where it gets in 2-3 hrs under 3 psi.
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: linuxboy on May 25, 2012, 01:38:42 AM
Did it fuse together under whey well? When you settled the curds to the bottom, did it come out as a nicely knit wheel? If not, have to press with a lot right away to form that initial wheel.

Your make seems decent... maybe just not enough weight or needed more time to fuse and settle before draining.
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: woodsman on May 25, 2012, 03:24:46 PM
When i was pressing the curds under whey it looked good until I started pulling the mold off of them - at this point the wheel came apart into little pieces. Like it didn't knit at all.

I just unwrapped the wheel after it was pressed at 4.7 psi overnight and it still seems very fragile. Luckily the cheesecloth din't stick at all or I'd have very rugged surfaces. I very delicately placed it in brine and see if it gets any sturdier afterwards.

Regarding inoculation time, since I can't control the temperature of a 6 gal pot of milk overnight to keep it at less than 72F should I inoculate it longer than one hour at an ambient room temp of ~80-88F? (the recipe calls for 1/3 cup of yogurt/gallon milk).

Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: H-K-J on May 25, 2012, 04:15:55 PM
Quote
at this point the wheel came apart into little pieces

Woodsman, I had the same problem (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9541.msg69761.html#msg69761) Thought I followed the recipe (http://cocker-spanial-hair-in-my-food.blogspot.com/2012/04/i-thought-i-was-makin-uh-swiss-cheese.html) to a T
 I finally had to press at 71/2 psi for 27 hours and it was still very fragile  :o
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: woodsman on May 25, 2012, 10:02:05 PM
Thanks H-K-J, I think I'll go for another Monterey next week and chew on all the info before I make another attempt at the alpine.
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: Alpkäserei on July 12, 2012, 11:49:47 PM
I think that your cooking time was far too long, and it sounds to me as if the curd became overly dry.

I make Berner Alpkäse, an alpine cheese of course. The rule here is to add culture and rennet together at 90 degrees, let sit for 30 to 35 minutes at this temperature (when making big batches like we do it will not loose any temperature while sitting) Then using a cheese harp, cut to curs the size of coffee beans or a grain of corn. It is very important that the curd be turned over while cutting so that the curd on the bottom gets cut also.

We heat it over a period of 25 to 40 minutes to 120-125 degrees depending on local conditions and the maturity of the milk. It is important that it be stirred quickly to keep curds from clumping. Then once at this temperature it is stirred for 5 to 15 minutes until the curds seem right. If they get rubbery then you have cooked too long.

Then we let it set for 5 minutes so that the curd can settle to the bottom and mass together, and at this point it is removed as quickly as possible, after the proper amount of whey has been removed for culture.

The curd should be let to set for maybe 30 minutes to 1 hour so that excess why can drain off, and is then formed and put under the press, and we press it heavy.

I press for 20 to 24 hours before brining, turning at least 6 times, and my cheese is not fragile at all, after the first or second turning it should be well massed together and if it cracks at this point then it likely will not ever stick back together.
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: Tomer1 on July 13, 2012, 08:18:34 AM
Quote
The curd should be let to set for maybe 30 minutes to 1 hour so that excess why can drain off, and is then formed and put under the press, and we press it heavy.


In the vat or do you use a cheese cloth to collect the already formed cheese from under the whey and let it hang over the vat for 30-60min before going to the press?
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: Alpkäserei on July 13, 2012, 01:29:56 PM
we collect the curd and draw it out of the vat, then let it sit on the draining table in a box.

It is imperative that the curd be removed from the heat of the whey so that it does not get too dry. If too dry, then the curds will not bond properly
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: woodsman on July 19, 2012, 05:33:01 PM
Alpkäserei, thanks for the info.

When you say that you add rennet and culture together is it because you use whey from the previous batch for culture which already contains some quantity of enzymes?
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: Alpkäserei on August 03, 2012, 01:33:45 PM
There is not enough rennet in the whey to do anything, in fact there is no active rennet if you did it right.

I just spent a couple weeks making cheese in the Alps (I'm actually still in the Alps, but not making cheese anymore)

It was good to learn a little more.

These folks add their 'Sirte' (whey culture) directly to the morning milk in the vat and heat it up, and then add the eveneing milk to that, adding the rennet once the whole mass is at the proper temperature. These gives the culture perhaps as much as 10 minutes more time to act than if it had been mixed together with the rennet.
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: H-K-J on August 03, 2012, 02:29:24 PM

Quote
These folks add their 'Sirte' (whey culture) directly to the morning milk in the vat and heat it up, and then add the eveneing milk to that, adding the rennet once the whole mass is at the proper temperature. These gives the culture perhaps as much as 10 minutes more time to act than if it had been mixed together with the rennet.

So the way I am taking this is to add my TA, LH and PS at the same time I add my rennet?? ???
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: Alpkäserei on August 07, 2012, 04:50:38 PM
I really can't say for certain, the procedure for starrter cultures is bound to work a lot different than an active whey culture. And then you get into watching PH and all that garbage that you dan't worry about with whey culture.

Maybe  you produce a yogurt culture and go with that you can follow the traditional methods. I can give you later the info on how to do that the traditional way if you want
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: woodsman on August 08, 2012, 01:57:30 AM
When you say "whey culture" - do you just mean whey withheld from the previous day's make?
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: Alpkäserei on August 11, 2012, 02:33:38 PM
Yes, exactly.
But the whey must be specially prepared and incubated in order to sour the cheese properly.
When you do it this way, you make sure the whey is within a very narrow margin of acidity, and then if you follow the recipe right and such, you can be sure the culture is working right.

Furthermore, contrary to what I read all the time, you actually can tell visually if the culture is working properly. After you cut the curd, by watching the color of the whey and the character of the curd you can know if the culture is working right -if the whey is to white, you have to go slower and let the culture have more time to work. If it is a nice green then you know you are good.
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: woodsman on August 11, 2012, 04:04:07 PM
Thank you for the clarification. Do they use litmus paper or pH meter or do they test the whey on small quantities of milk to ascertain its readiness? I'm fascinated by the "old school" methods :)
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: Alpkäserei on August 12, 2012, 01:41:11 PM
They test for titratable acidity, using a small amount of whey, phenophthaline (sp?) and I think sodium hydroxide, and get the acid percent, not PH. In Switzerland it is measured in SH degrees, but in the US we would use degrees TH most likely.

Look for the acid tesing kit on the new england cheesemaking supply site, it is the same test.

The old school way would be to taste the whey, and see how sour it is. This of course requires a great deal of experience to be able to detect minute differences.
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: woodsman on August 12, 2012, 09:49:52 PM
Thanks. Litmus is pretty old school - it goes back to 14th century. Phenolphthalein isn't a spring chicken either - it was discovered back in 1871. But then again the general availability of either one might have been an issue till not so long ago, especially in places at the end of the world such as the one where I live.

I did notice that the more makes I go through the better my feel for curd texture, whey color, etc. and I have to pay less attention to objective measurements or timing.  I never thought about tasting the whey - which is really a shame since by now I'd known what it tastes like at different levels of acidity :)
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: Alpkäserei on August 14, 2012, 06:58:10 PM
We are talking about the Alps here, after all. You should come here some time to understand the remoteness of the place.

Litmus may have existed a long time ago, but these folks sure didnt have it. This is a place where up to very recent times, houses were built without a single bit of iron. Because iron can't be found here, and there was no practical way for anyone but the very ich to carry it up the mountains.

How often do you make cheese? And what size?

The Alpine methods are really designed for the production of fairly large cheeses, and there are special considerations when making it smaller.

For example, if I would cut my curds so fine with a 10 gallon batch as I would with a 40 g batch, the small cheese would be much too hard.

There is so much that you have to watch when doing things all by traditional means that maybe you would not if you do it in a modern style. You have to observe everything from the maturity of the milk, the sourness of the culture, the color of the whey, the size and texture of the curd, and so on and so forth.

one more thing too, the cheese is wrapped in a cloth while it is in the press to retain heat. this helps the culture.

And the volks I learned from wash their cheese every day for the 1st 10 days with a salt brine containing a little white wine. The wine has bacterial and yeast cultures in it.
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: woodsman on August 14, 2012, 09:40:04 PM
I skied in Tyrol a few times. I even skied down into Switzerland from Ischgl:) Too bad I wasn't paying much attention to cheesemaking back then.

Where I live now, 50 years ago I'd have to paddle a dugout canoe up the river for a few hours from the nearest town where the road ended. I know exactly what end of the world remote place means:) I can get basic meso and thermo cultures from the local dairy but they're quite expensive and importing them for myself after shipping and duties are paid isn't much less. 

I make cheese once a week with 7 gallons of milk which I trade from the neighbor for my pigs. Though I'm seriously thinking about getting my own cow(s) or else I have no control over quality or freshness of milk, which in the tropics is probably even more important than in a temperate climate zone.

I'll try running a 1 gallon test batch this week using the whey I saved from last week in the fridge and see how it goes. I'm not really trying to fully mimic the method and conditions of a different place across the world, it's not feasible - just to see what happens under the local conditions and if anything useful comes out of it.
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: bbracken677 on August 15, 2012, 12:31:09 AM
I think I read somewhere that if you are going to use whey, you have to use it fairly quickly or it wont work properly....I suspect  week may be too long.
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: linuxboy on August 15, 2012, 12:51:02 AM
It's fine if you keep it cold at 34-36F, but not optimal. The longest a culture can be stable without fancy manipulation at normal ambient temps is 4 days. It'll go into a nice maintenance phase after about a day.
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: woodsman on August 15, 2012, 01:19:16 AM
It depend on what ambient temp means in your locale. We have a well shaded house, build make use of passive cooling only so our ambient temp could be anywhere between 25-34C. Slightly cooler at night though it does go down to a bone-chilling 10C on winter nights. Under these conditions whey left standing in the kitchen for 4 days will ferment and mold.

I once run an experiment with meso whey culture but my mistake was to add rennet after an hour and the milk granulated instantly and never properly clobbered.
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: Alpkäserei on August 19, 2012, 03:26:19 PM
If it has been cooled, do not use it for direct set. Use it to produce a new starter culture.

DO this by making the yogurt, but be sure to excessively boil the milk so that only your starter bacteria will set it.

I would recommend the same if it is more than a few days old.

Furtermore, it is a good idea to always be making yogurt, and add a little of this to your whey every time you pull it.

We produce whey culture by first heating it to a certain temp, then cooling it immediately to another temp and incubating it overnight. It cant tell you off hand what the temps are, because they are in a scale that is used only for cheesemaking in Switzerland, and exist no where else
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: woodsman on August 23, 2012, 06:11:53 PM
Awesome! They still use Réaumur scale?

Clobbering milk with whey to preserve the culture  for longer time periods makes a lot of sense. I use store bought cheese with sterilized milk in order to obtain a viable cultures from the cheese too.
Title: Re: Alpine recipe - curds don't mat together
Post by: Alpkäserei on August 24, 2012, 01:40:49 AM
Yes, that's the scale alright. 0 is freezing and 80 is boiling. It's not actually a very precise scale, so often they'll work in fractions of a degree.

never heard of making culture from bought cheese. I doubt it would work on 2 year old alpine cheese. Here the culture works to such an extent as to make the cheese an inhospitable place for any bacteria, including its own self. The initial acid-producing culture will die after maybe 6 months, and then other cultures kich in that give the alpine cheeses their distinctive bite.

The folks I learned from thought that a cheese should be at least 2 years old before you cut into it, and the best cheese was 3 years old.