CheeseForum.org » Forum

CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Lactic Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: hoeklijn on December 01, 2012, 11:06:34 AM

Title: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 01, 2012, 11:06:34 AM
Finally found the time and opportunity to start with Valençay.
Got 10 ltr of fresh raw goat milk, last night the milk tank was emptied, so it was a fresh amount. At the moment he is milking about 450 goats (at the most this is about 600) and the fat is at this moment around 4.1%. The goats are Dutch Milking Goat x Nubian.
Back to the making:
At 24C I added 1/8 tsp of Alpha culture (Yoav, do you already sell that?) which is 2/3 Lactococcus Cremoris and Lactococcus Lactis and 1/3 Lactococcus Diacetilactis and Leuconostoc Cremoris, 1/8 tsp PC Neige and 1/8 tsp Geo 55 from the same supplier as the culture. Half an hour later I added just over 1/4 liquid calf rennet.
This will rest for 24 hours and then I will pre-drain for 6 hours. To be continued....
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Tiarella on December 01, 2012, 12:19:57 PM
Hi Herman!!  How nice to see that you've posted about making Valencay because I started a make of that last night!!  What is it they say?  great minds think alike??   :D.

Are you using a particular recipe?  I am loosely using Peter Dixon's recipe....I am doing some things differently and his recipe is for a whole class of French lactic type goat and cow cheeses so not specific in much detail.  I don't have a pH meter so I am winging it.  he gives different amount of cultures depending upon how long you want the ripening phase to last.  I chose the shortest ripening phase of 15-20 hours and now I am up before the sun (starting coughing....lung issue from some moldy clover hay in the barn) and drinking tea in the warm kitchen.  I have put wood on the stove fire and all is quiet except for our refrigerator that sounds like it is powered by chipmunks.  The cats have been fed and are looking out the windows at the snow falling outside.

Will you use pyramid molds?  I have 3 from Yoav and I'm using a lot of other molds too.  I have 2 1/2 gallons of milk and it's high in solids so I expect a lot of cheese from it.  My plan is to put some leaves on them just after ashing them, while they are still wet, so that the leaves stick.  I use leaves that have been frozen and thawed so that they are more flexible.

I used MM100, Geo 13, PC SAM(which is an anti Mucor type that a home cheese making cheese place carried and I am trying to use it up before I use my better PC), and I added a little bit of MD88 which I hope might add a buttery flavor by it's action.  It is not an acidifying culture itself, it is diacetylactis which is in the culture you used.

I don't know if I will pre-drain my batch.  I may split the batch and pre-drain some and not the other.  I would like to pre-drain the curd I will put in the pyramid molds because that will make a difference....especially since I can't wait around to keep adding curds the way my recipe says.  (and how does that work anyway....isn't the curd continuing to acidify as you wait for room to ladle it into the molds?).  ???  The other molds I have won't matter if I fill once.  I have to go milk goats and then clean stalls so I won't be able to do anything for my make for hours once I leave the house this morning.

I sure hope you are going to post photos as you unmold and age your cheese!  I'll enjoy comparing our makes.
Have you pre drained before?  And how was it putting pre drained curd into molds?  I've wondered whether it will be like smooshing cream cheese into a mold....and whether it will form a cohesive shape after that.

The dark sky has lightened to gray now........bye.
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 01, 2012, 02:08:55 PM
Hi Tiarella,

well, I read the recipe in "200 easy...", read Peter Dixon's recipe, read your thread about Valençay and Yoav's comments and distilled a recipe out of that all. We'll see how it works out. The milk is good so I'm pretty sure I will end up with cheeses that can be consumed  ;).
Cause it's the first time I make this, I didn't buy pyramids but extra small baskets which have about the same content (110 x 80 x 65 mm). I needed those anyway, because I want to make more smaller lactic cheeses in future.
So it's snowing already? We had some nights here with temps below 0C, but during the days it's all rain. Which is lucky for me: A lot of snow will mean a lot of problems with the trains and I'm travelling to Amsterdam every day by train.
How many goats do you have to milk? I like the atmosphere in a stall in the morning, I pick up my cow milk during milking time and I love to be there. Reminds me of holidays on the farm of my uncle when I was a kid...
The only predrained cheeses I made were Feta and white Stilton with blueberries, but I think I will check the draining tomorrow several times and then suddenly decide "Okay, now is the time to go for it and mould them", more based on guts feelings than facts or measurements (PH-meter is not working at the moment). With the feta that works okay.
Surely I'll make pictures when I unmould them and after ashing/salting them, also because I know Boofer loves cheese-porn  ;D.

cheers...
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Tiarella on December 01, 2012, 04:00:43 PM
HI Herman,  You use recipes like I do!!!  I look several over and then see what makes sense given my situation.  I also heavily weight the recipes that I know are from extra reputable sources.  I have some very tiny molds from Yoav because I want to wrap small cheeses in leaves so I should get some of those out to play with.....thanks for reminding me of them by mentioning your small baskets.  I have used small ricotta baskets before for Valencay and they were fine.

I am only milking 5 goats right now and usually it is very peaceful in the barn and a favorite time but right now is rutting season and 3 goats were in heat and bellowing so much I am afraid the whole herd will be deaf by the end of December!  At least they are quiet when in the milking room.  When I was a teenager I had a Jersey cow and milking her was a favorite thing.  I was a singer in a band that did old traditional United Kingdom and American songs and so I sang always as I milked.  It was a peaceful time.  I remember back then we had colder winters and two weeks each winter would be -34F  (-36C) at night with not above 0F (-17C) during the day.  The first squirts of milk to hit the milk pail would freeze.

I do love being in the barn and there is an office  (I can't legally call it a living place) in my barn that I stay in when the goats and sheep are birthing.  I love living up there.  I can walk down as often as I want at night to check on the mothers, I can hear them while I am sleeping and in the morning, after milking I have very fresh milk for my tea and granola.  I can sit on the daybed to eat and watch the flocks/herds below me out to pasture.  It's very nice.  I have a blog that I write on sometimes.  Here is a post with photos of the place in the hayloft.  The other blog entries show the rest of the barn, the livestock, the gardens here, etc.  Oh, and they show yummy food from our gardens too.  We currently have...... goats: 2 bucks, 5 does, 4 young does and 3 more ready for butcher.  sheep: 2 rams, 3 ram lambs, 8 ewes....1 ram and 3 ram lambs will be butchered also for our meat and to sell some.  We also have the dogs that live with the goats to guard them, chickens and meat rabbits.  (the chickens and rabbits live at the small barn closer to the house)  The big barn is up the hill through the woods.

Here's the barn post:  http://foxmountainfarm.blogspot.com/2012/01/upstairs-in-barn.html (http://foxmountainfarm.blogspot.com/2012/01/upstairs-in-barn.html)   
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 01, 2012, 08:50:29 PM
Tiarella,

thanks for sharing your blog with me. I spend most of my Saturday night reading it. I love the way you describe the live at the farm.

Cheers,
Herman
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Tiarella on December 01, 2012, 10:17:58 PM
Tiarella,

thanks for sharing your blog with me. I spend most of my Saturday night reading it. I love the way you describe the live at the farm.

Cheers,
Herman

Oh, I'm so glad you enjoyed it!  The visit offer still stands if you come to Massachusetts......we do have a guest room!  (and lots of cheese now!!!)  And the baby goats are so small we could put one in your suitcase to take back to Holland!
 ;D
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 03, 2012, 08:42:55 PM
Yesterday I predrained the curd for about six hours.
That is, part of the curd.
While I tried to knot the four corners of the cheesecloth together, I let one point slip away and lost about half of my curd.  >:D  >:( :'(.
Anyway, I have four Valençay type cheeses. Tonight, after draining them moulded for 24 hours, I salted them with a 5:1 mix of salt and charcoal.
I mixed it by volume, 1 Tbsp salt and 1/2 tsp charcoal.
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Tiarella on December 03, 2012, 10:34:11 PM
Looking VERY nice!!!  Mine are not ashed/salted as evenly as yours.  Did you see my thread of it.  I did some small cute ones.  http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10514.0.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10514.0.html)   And I played with leaves on some of them.  A total of 21 cheeses for me and of all sizes so it'll be interesting to see the ripening difference between sizes. 

Sorry you lost some of your curd.....so sad.   :'(
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Boofer on December 04, 2012, 01:18:44 AM
Surely I'll make pictures when I unmould them and after ashing/salting them, also because I know Boofer loves cheese-porn  ;D.
Hey, where's the goods? ;)

I'm curious how this will go for you, Herman. Watching.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Vina on December 04, 2012, 11:30:18 AM
I'm curious too. How are your cheeses doing?
And one question - how do you manage ash dusting process? I can just imagine what a mess is all that ash everywhere,
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: bodul on December 04, 2012, 02:01:02 PM
I'm curious too. How are your cheeses doing?
And one question - how do you manage ash dusting process? I can just imagine what a mess is all that ash everywhere,

 It is not so difficult  look at this video...

http://www.gastronomiaycia.com/2011/12/21/queso-torrejon-con-ceniza-cantagrullas/ (http://www.gastronomiaycia.com/2011/12/21/queso-torrejon-con-ceniza-cantagrullas/)
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 04, 2012, 04:28:35 PM
I'm curious too. How are your cheeses doing?
And one question - how do you manage ash dusting process? I can just imagine what a mess is all that ash everywhere,

 It is not so difficult  look at this video...

[url]http://www.gastronomiaycia.com/2011/12/21/queso-torrejon-con-ceniza-cantagrullas/[/url] ([url]http://www.gastronomiaycia.com/2011/12/21/queso-torrejon-con-ceniza-cantagrullas/[/url])


That's a nice video, pity I don't speak Spanish (or Catalan?), but not the way I done it:
I mixed the salt and charcoal in a glass bowl (try to avoid the use of plastics, because that's hard to clean) and I used a small funnel to poor it in a small saltshaker. With the saltshaker it was easy to do. I just held the cheeses above a plastic wash basin that was covered with wet paper tissues and shook the shaker  8)
And of course I'll keep you all posted...
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Vina on December 05, 2012, 07:24:12 AM
Thanks for an idea of wet paper towels! I was always wondering how to avoid that blacj duty mess all around :)
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 13, 2012, 07:42:12 PM
Almost forgot to post an update with pictures after one week: Hurray! They are getting fluffy!
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: bbracken677 on December 13, 2012, 08:09:58 PM
Nice!  Very well done! 
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Tiarella on December 13, 2012, 11:09:00 PM
Herman,  I think I have a white thumb.  (in the Netherlands do they say a gardener has a green thumb?  Or is that expression only here?). Anyway,  my little Valencay are so white they look like a snow storm and that was days ago.  Which PC strain did you use?  I think I posted photos on my thread but am not sure.....

Yours will be very tasty I'm sure and less likely to get slip skin.  Some mine did get this because the temp did not stay at the proper temperature.  I need a real cheese cave....sigh.   :(
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 14, 2012, 06:57:50 AM
Yeah, we know that expression here as well!
I'm using PC Neige, which is strong indeed. I removed the lid of the container to lower the RH and the cave is about 53F and pretty stable on that temperature (thanks to an external thermostate). I'm checking and turning them every day.
I bought a big second hand fridge for about $30 and the thermostate was about $100 and I think it was worth every penny.
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Tiarella on December 14, 2012, 12:30:03 PM
My problem is that I outgrew he wine fridge so quickly and then moved into a spare room with using a window to let in winter cold air to chill the room but every time we have a guest the cheeses have to taken out and put on my workbench in a room that is not cold enough.  I am starting to think of a real cheese cave....well, not real like a cave but perhaps a shipping container buried underground.  We need a root cellar anyway to store roots, winter squash and fruit.
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 14, 2012, 04:07:03 PM
Well, personally I would turn that around: Have a container buried to use for wine and other stuff and use the wine fridge for the cheeses. Reason for that is simple: Wine is stored in glass and molds are not a problem for glass. A fridge is easy to clean so you can prevent the cheeses for unwanted molds, which will be much harder in a buried container.
I guess you're making the wine yourself? Grapes and/or fruits? Used to do that several years ago, but two young children are taking up the space I had for my fermentation glasses  ;)
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 16, 2012, 01:23:37 PM
Okay, it's two weeks after making them and according to the recipe it's time to wrap them. And I agree. The rind is nicely covered with PC, when I tab them the charcoal is shining through and they have a nice fresh smell. I think I will cut the first next Tuesday...
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Tiarella on December 16, 2012, 01:32:21 PM
VERY nice looking, Herman!  A cheese to you for a nice batch of good looking batch of Valencay. 
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 16, 2012, 03:47:49 PM
Thanks Kathrin! I'll let you all know how the taste is...
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Tiarella on December 16, 2012, 04:54:42 PM
Well, personally I would turn that around: Have a container buried to use for wine and other stuff and use the wine fridge for the cheeses. Reason for that is simple: Wine is stored in glass and molds are not a problem for glass. A fridge is easy to clean so you can prevent the cheeses for unwanted molds, which will be much harder in a buried container.
I guess you're making the wine yourself? Grapes and/or fruits? Used to do that several years ago, but two young children are taking up the space I had for my fermentation glasses  ;)

Actually we don't make wine.....I bought it just for the cheese and it is a 44 bottle size bit filled with cheese quickly it was scary!   ;)

I don't know the exact dimensions for shipping containers but I am thinking of 20x12' or bigger.  I need lots of shelves.....I really do make a fair amount of cheese even with these small batches.  I have about 10 full wheels aging and always lots of the PC style cheeses.  Shelving would be nice.  Even if I had to keep many or all of them in mini cave boxes to control RH it would still be worth it to have enough space at a constant temperature. Then I could use the wine fridge for a few oddball cheeses with different requirements. 
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 19, 2012, 08:34:45 PM
Hurray  ;D O0 ^-^ ! Yesterday I brought a Cambozola, a Reblochon and a Valençay to the office, because a colleague from Barcelona was visiting and I had promised him he could taste some of my cheese. He is a hobby cook, beer maker and wine maker and is thinking about making cheese.
It turned after working hours into a spontaneous party with a couple of bottles of wine, some beer and about 2 kilo's of cheese that was finished in no-time. The Valençay was delicious: Young, fresh, goaty but not too much, nice thin rind with a very thin layer of ash and no, I don't have pictures. But I have still 3 Valençay left.
Everybody loved the cheeses....
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Tiarella on December 19, 2012, 11:05:13 PM
Congratulations!!  Isn't that a nice feeling when people like your cheeses?  I hope you take photos when you break open the next cheese of this make.  A cheese to you! 
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 20, 2012, 07:31:18 AM
Thanks Kathrin. Yes, I plan to cut the next in a more "controlled environment"...
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Albert on December 20, 2012, 11:19:20 AM
Hey hoeklijn!!  if you have a friend from Barcelona who is thinking in cheese making, I would like to contact with this person, so I'm catalan too, and here is not many people doing home made cheese. Could you ask him if can I get his e-mail?
I'm always finding home cheesemakers in my country, but never founding...

Thanks

Merry Xmas from Catalunya
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Boofer on December 20, 2012, 02:57:56 PM
a Cambozola, a Reblochon and a Valençay

Everybody loved the cheeses....
Excellent, Herman! Serving the masses....

A cheese for your crowd-pleasing cheese mastery. :D

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 20, 2012, 07:25:47 PM
if you have a friend from Barcelona who is thinking in cheese making

LOL, Alberto, I'm afraid I have to disappoint you: My colleague from Barcelona is an American who is stationed in Barcelona for only a short term and then he will return and settle somewhere in MA probably. He already told me he will wait with making cheese until he returns, also because he has no clue where to get fresh milk in Barcelona. But maybe we can convince him to start if you have access to fresh milk???

@Boofer: Thanks man! Pictures will follow....
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Albert on December 20, 2012, 09:32:23 PM
yes hoeklijn, your friend is right, here is not easy to found fresh milk...

BR
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 24, 2012, 09:03:18 PM
Okay, plans are changed. No cheese for desert at the Christmas diner, but home made garlic icecream with melting chocolate cupcakes.
So my mother in law who is having here birthday at Christmas Eve, was surprised with some cheese for the visitors. And I made pictures of the Valencay...
(http://flexiprogram-public.s3.amazonaws.com/IMG_1526_Valencay_cut.jpg)
And a bit closer:
(http://flexiprogram-public.s3.amazonaws.com/IMG_1527_Valencay_cut.jpg)

And let me wish everybody at this forum a very happy Christmas!
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Tiarella on December 25, 2012, 12:07:11 AM
Herman,  a cheese to you for SUCH a beautiful cheese!!!!!  Very NICE!!!  I bet it was extremely tasty also.  It doesn't look like ski skin to me....were you thinking of a different cheese or am I not remembering correctly what you posted?  let's keep experimenting with this make and see what we can do to slow down the PC.  We can use the buddy system of research.   ;D
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Al Lewis on December 25, 2012, 12:48:16 AM
Very good job!  Hopefully I'll get some goats milk one day.  How does the charcoal compare with grape vine ash?
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 25, 2012, 11:26:42 AM
How does the charcoal compare with grape vine ash?
I have really no idea. Bought this ash from my German supplier. I know they offer more ash but since this was the smallest amount (and my first buy of ash) I didn't compare the differences.

Herman,  a cheese to you for SUCH a beautiful cheese!!!!!  Very NICE!!!  I bet it was extremely tasty also.  It doesn't look like ski skin to me....were you thinking of a different cheese or am I not remembering correctly what you posted?  let's keep experimenting with this make and see what we can do to slow down the PC.  We can use the buddy system of research.   ;D
Thanks Kathrin, yes it was extremely tasty. It was pretty warm in the room, so it might be possible that this was causing a slight creaminess just below the skin. I certainly want to try this one more often and I will do some research on the forum as well. Good idea to share research this way!
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Boofer on December 25, 2012, 12:48:53 PM
As per usual, very professional and tasty-looking cheese, Herman.

Merry Christmas to you as well.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Tiarella on December 25, 2012, 12:55:19 PM
I am chagrined and giggling that my auto correct changed "slip skin" to "ski skin"!  Sorry I didn't catch that!  ???
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Boofer on December 25, 2012, 02:04:54 PM
Yeah, you had me wondering. What the heck is "ski skin"? ???

Merry Christmas, Kathrin.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Tiarella on December 26, 2012, 01:47:40 AM
Merry Christmas to you too, Boofer!  Ummm, I think "ski skin" is chapped skin after a day of skiing the slopes.   ;D  Maybe there's a cheese form of it but I don't know.  Probably somewhere in the world is a cheese that is aged in open air on a windy mountain side and it gets "ski skin"?   ???

And Herman, I want to know how the garlic ice cream was.  I haven't tried that.

Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 26, 2012, 10:52:18 AM
Merry Christmas everybody.
And Herman, I want to know how the garlic ice cream was.  I haven't tried that.
The garlic ice cream was delicious. I'll post the complete recipe in the Lounch...
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Al Lewis on December 26, 2012, 05:47:27 PM
I do a lot of homemade ice cream but I'd have to give the garlic a pass.  I love garlic and have heard of the ice cream before but I just don't think I could enjoy the two combined. LOL
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: H-K-J on December 26, 2012, 11:45:06 PM
I do a lot of homemade ice cream but I'd have to give the garlic a pass.  I love garlic and have heard of the ice cream before but I just don't think I could enjoy the two combined. LOL
I'm with you Al :-\
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on December 27, 2012, 10:01:59 AM
I do a lot of homemade ice cream but I'd have to give the garlic a pass.  I love garlic and have heard of the ice cream before but I just don't think I could enjoy the two combined. LOL

Well, combined with the melting chocolate cupcakes and a very nice Pedro Ximenez sherry I can recommend it to everybody.
And hey, aren't we willing to try new things with cheese, so why not with garlic  ^-^ ?
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Tiarella on December 27, 2012, 12:57:59 PM
I'd love to try it but I don't have a way to make ice cream.  maybe sometime.
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Tiarella on January 02, 2013, 10:39:52 PM
Herman, I had to make cheese on New Year's Eve and I wanted an easy, quick make so I made Valencay again and this time I left out the PC and I'll spray it on later.  I'm hoping to give the Geo a chance.  It's funny but I made Chaource with Geo and PC and the Geo developed fine on that but the PC is rampant when I do the same on Valencay.  So anyway, in the name of research I am trying it this way to see if I can control the impact of my "white thumb".   ;)
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: hoeklijn on January 03, 2013, 06:31:02 PM
Herman, I had to make cheese on New Year's Eve

LOL, that's the difference: I have to go out and buy milk so I can make cheese and you have to make cheese because you have too much milk.
Next time I make Valençay I will only use a pinch of PC, but first I have to make me some Gouda's and Cabra al Vino. My cave is as good as empty  :'(
Title: Re: Today Valençay day !
Post by: Tiarella on January 04, 2013, 02:51:48 AM
I'd send you milk if I could!  It would give me a break.  I did remember that I wanted to mention that on my last Valencay make I did some round ones in ricotta baskets and pressed a whole star anise seed into the middle of the top.  I didn't know if it would add any flavor or just make a stylish statement but it really does add some flavor.  you can smell it when you open the cheese paper and taste it just a bit when you eat the cheese.  Pretty nice and very easy.  I did not steam or boil the seeds because I trusted that the PC would preclude any stray molds from growing. 

My cave overfloweth into much of the basement cold room and I just had to buy more cheese boxes.  I must have about a dozen filled with everything from washed curd, Caerphilly, shitake brie, chaource, Valencay, washed rind, etc.  Keeping up with all of them is a lot of work!  But very fun.  I only have this much cheese because I make it every three days. 

On the PC versus Geo.....your rind wasn't too thick, right?  So maybe you already do a good balance of PC or Geo or your conditions are just right unlike mine which always go crazy with PC only.  I was reading the descriptions of strains of cultures and molds at www.getculture.com (http://www.getculture.com) and comparing the different PC and Geos.  Good evening.