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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => Problems - Questions - Problems - Questions? => Topic started by: Cruci on March 10, 2013, 07:58:26 PM

Title: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: Cruci on March 10, 2013, 07:58:26 PM
Hello !!

I am getting about 10 gallons of raw cows milk tomorrow from a new source I found.
It is a mainstream milk production farm. The kind where the cows are not really grazing.
I disagree with these methods of raising cows, but it is my only source of raw milk currently.

Should I pasteurize my milk? There tends to be some grass in the containers and such.

Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: shotski on March 10, 2013, 08:29:55 PM
Hi I am not an expert on raw milk but by the sounds of it I would filter it first then pasteurize it.
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: margaretsmall on March 10, 2013, 08:48:08 PM
The issue, I believe, is not really what the cows are eating, but the cleanliness of the process and the health of the cows. Cows grazing pasture exclusively can still contract disease and be milked in an unsafe manner.  If you are planning to make a soft cheese I would definitely pasteurise. If its a cheese you plan to age and the milking conditions appear to be sanitary you may not need to. What does the dairy do with its milk? If it is selling it they do need to meet certain conditions. That said, of you have concerns,  by all means pasteurise.
Margaret
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: bbracken677 on March 10, 2013, 10:48:39 PM
How is grass getting into the containers??
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 11, 2013, 02:22:39 AM
If there is actually grass in the containers, I would find a new source, and quick.
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: susanky on March 11, 2013, 11:16:57 AM
I get raw milk from a farmer who is not overly concerned about cleanliness.  In his defense, he just throws the milk out unless I go to get it.  That said, he is willing to indulge me and my OCD with cleanliness when I go to get the milk.  His cows are healthy.  So, true, I am pretty careful.  But, other than a few specks in the filter, there are never 'floaties' in the milk.  How would it get in there.. unless he is hand milking into an open bucket?  Just a speck of debris can contain millions of bacteria.  I agree.  Would find a new source.  Once in a while I have a breach.  ie, the local dog dropped his toy (that he wanted me to throw) right in my milk jug.  I tossed that milk.

Or maybe there is the possibility the guy would work with you.  You could see where the problem is and make suggestions to correct the problem.  Of course, this only works if you have a good relationship with the farmer.  Good luck!
Susan
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: margaretsmall on March 11, 2013, 10:05:49 PM
Missed the last sentence about the grass in the container - yuck!
Margaret
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: Alison on March 12, 2013, 01:49:39 PM
Hi Cruci

Was the grass fresh or processed .... ;) (dung)? What did cheese makers do 500 years ago, hand milking, no running water, and still dung? These days I'm sure there are bacterial issues with bunching so many cows in the same place (ie the whole industrial scale agriculture thing). I just wonder how many whole flies (or bits of poop) landed in the bucket in the "good ole days" and why cheesemakers were not regularly burnt at the stake. Is there something forgiving about introducing a quorum of happy bacteria to milk that makes the nasties curl up into a corner?

I heard a story (from a Swiss dairy farmer) that in the 70's the holes in Emmentaler went away with the introduction of good hygiene......

I know listeria is a terrible and dangerous infection, but how do we avoid overreacting to any "contaminant"? Here's a (deliberately provocative) suggestion (to stir the curd): If you are local, you probably have been exposed to the bugs any way, as even pasteurisation does not kill ALL the bugs and only just weakens some. If you merely making for you own consumption - (as long as you are not immune-compromised) and the contaminant was fresh grass I'd be cautiously experimental.

Regards
Alison
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: Cruci on March 12, 2013, 09:55:12 PM
Hi Cruci

Was the grass fresh or processed .... ;) (dung)? What did cheese makers do 500 years ago, hand milking, no running water, and still dung? These days I'm sure there are bacterial issues with bunching so many cows in the same place (ie the whole industrial scale agriculture thing). I just wonder how many whole flies (or bits of poop) landed in the bucket in the "good ole days" and why cheesemakers were not regularly burnt at the stake. Is there something forgiving about introducing a quorum of happy bacteria to milk that makes the nasties curl up into a corner?

I heard a story (from a Swiss dairy farmer) that in the 70's the holes in Emmentaler went away with the introduction of good hygiene......

I know listeria is a terrible and dangerous infection, but how do we avoid overreacting to any "contaminant"? Here's a (deliberately provocative) suggestion (to stir the curd): If you are local, you probably have been exposed to the bugs any way, as even pasteurisation does not kill ALL the bugs and only just weakens some. If you merely making for you own consumption - (as long as you are not immune-compromised) and the contaminant was fresh grass I'd be cautiously experimental.

Regards
Alison

I do not know of how the cows were maintained, but the farm is one of the many producers of milk that go to the main milk companies here.
The step before the factory process.
Do you lose a lot from the pasteurization of raw milk?

As a matter of a fact I am immuno-compromised. I need to pay close attention to such bacteria. Thanks!

Lots of good info on this page awesome
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: Alison on March 13, 2013, 07:54:30 AM

Do you lose a lot from the pasteurization of raw milk?


As long as you pasteurisation is "low and slow" say 1hr at 62degC (there can be issues with shattered curd with the in line pasteurisers that reach 85degC for 5 sec) there is little functional loss.
I make both pasteurised and unpasteurised versions of the same cheese. The flavour differences are like the differences between a single malt and a blended whiskey. The pasteurised version has strong flavours in 1 or 2 dimensions, the raw milk cheese is rounded, and softer flavoured. I imagine it's because in the raw milk a number of different bacteria are producing different byproducts.

There is, of course, no accounting for taste :o!

Regards
Alison

 
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: george on March 13, 2013, 08:51:44 AM
There are two kinds of raw milk: milk intended for pasteurization, and milk intended to be consumed raw.  If the milk you're getting is intended for pasteurization, I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole - hygiene tends to fall by the wayside when intended for pasteurization (i.e. grass in the milk).
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on March 13, 2013, 09:04:10 AM
Alison raises a good point about being subject to local cultures. It is quite possible for local communities to become acclimated to local strains, except some nasties like Listeria.
For most of us in the western world, who have been bought up on pasteurised milk, any contact with these could be quite distressing.

After the recent deaths and mishaps here in Australia, from commercial producers supplying Listeria in their cheese, I will stick with pasteurised and put up with an inferior product.
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: Alison on March 13, 2013, 01:52:21 PM
After the recent deaths and mishaps here in Australia, from commercial producers supplying Listeria in their cheese, I will stick with pasteurised and put up with an inferior product.

The scary part is that they claim to pasteurise their milk for the cheese.... (http://www.jindi.com.au/cheesemaking.html (http://www.jindi.com.au/cheesemaking.html)). Where the did the Listeria come from?

I'm not sure a single malt is inferior, just different.
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: Tomer1 on March 13, 2013, 02:44:12 PM
There are bacterial products (cultures) which can help promote saftety in raw milk cheeses.   You should consider their use.
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: bbracken677 on March 13, 2013, 04:04:09 PM
After the recent deaths and mishaps here in Australia, from commercial producers supplying Listeria in their cheese, I will stick with pasteurised and put up with an inferior product.

The scary part is that they claim to pasteurise their milk for the cheese.... ([url]http://www.jindi.com.au/cheesemaking.html[/url] ([url]http://www.jindi.com.au/cheesemaking.html[/url])). Where the did the Listeria come from?



Listeria does not have to come from the milk. The milk could have been pristine and the listeria came about during the processing, at some point, of the cheese itself.

It is a common misperception that by definition listeria in cheeses came from the milk, which is not necessarily so.

All crows are birds, but not all birds are crows.
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: Cruci on March 15, 2013, 09:32:46 PM
After reading these posts I decided to approach my friend at the farm to ask some questions.
It produces milk for the major milk giant here. They use some fancy robotic set up that can detect problems with a cow throughout milking.
The way I obtain the milk is through a large milk silo.
At the bottom there is a an area where he has to fill up a clean container from his home.
The time with grass is the bucket was from his son who collected the milk in a messy manner.

I obtained milk from them a few days ago and inspected the containers for "floaties" and had seen none.

I sense fear from a lot of posters over these farming methods.
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: Tomer1 on March 17, 2013, 10:12:52 PM
A. Bring your own sanitized container and have it filled while instructing how you want it to be filled. (as said, when they think your gone heat treat the milk, they dont pay attention too much to laying the hose on the floor and then submerging it in your container as its filled with milk)

B.You can send\take a sample of the milk to a lab and have it tested and see how "dirty" or "clean" (concentration of harmful bacteria such as ecoli and listeria), of course this is only a spot sample but it will give you some idea.
Its gone set you back 60-70$
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: Cruci on March 19, 2013, 12:25:50 AM
There are bacterial products (cultures) which can help promote saftety in raw milk cheeses.   You should consider their use.

This sounds interesting!
Perhaps I will look into that.  Any idea where to look?
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: BobE102330 on March 19, 2013, 01:52:47 AM
Any purveyor of cultures may stock it.  Tending more to the commercial products, an industrial supplier is more likely.  Give iratherfly a PM, see what he has. 
Title: Re: Raw Cow's Milk and Pasteurization
Post by: qkhwaja on April 06, 2013, 04:32:05 PM
I use raw milk, both cow and buffalo.  I never used to pasteurize it and never had any problem... Though recently I heard of a documentary where people were contracting TB from raw milk, so after that I just thought it would be safer to pasteurize the milk and for soft cheeses like cream, cottage etc, I pasteurize after making the cheese just to be safe.