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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cooked (Swiss) => Topic started by: SouthernCheese on October 20, 2013, 01:21:43 PM

Title: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: SouthernCheese on October 20, 2013, 01:21:43 PM
Just sharing this blog post in the event that it is interesting and helpful to others. I know there are lots of folks here with wonderful knowledge but this may be interesting to some of you:

http://naturesharmonyfarm.com/make-cheese-gruyere-alpine-style/ (http://naturesharmonyfarm.com/make-cheese-gruyere-alpine-style/)
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: jwalker on October 20, 2013, 02:44:13 PM
Thanks for that link , great info there.
One of the problems I have had with the milk I get locally , is that the curds tend to break apart easily and I end up with very small curd , looks like this would be a good cheese for dealing with that problem , I will try a few next week.

I wonder how this type of cheese develops if you wax it rather than wash the rind , the only reason I ask is that I am away from home a lot when working and just am not available to to it on a regular basis.(Don't you just hate work ?! >:D)

I'll be trying one next week.

Thanks , great post.
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: linuxboy on October 20, 2013, 02:49:33 PM
Tim, have you thought about using a whey starter system?
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: SouthernCheese on October 20, 2013, 03:09:54 PM
Tim, have you thought about using a whey starter system?
I haven't, as I make a number of cheeses and may not repeat a Fortsonia (Alpine) make for several weeks. Would a whey starter system work? Can you explain how I could use it in a rotation of cheddar, Alpine, blue, etc?

Thanks for the tip!
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: SouthernCheese on October 20, 2013, 03:12:40 PM
I wonder how this type of cheese develops if you wax it rather than wash the rind , the only reason I ask is that I am away from home a lot when working and just am not available to to it on a regular basis.(Don't you just hate work ?! >:D)
Oh you could do it and it would make cheese, of course. It just would miss an important characteristic of an Alpine cheese, which is a natural rind of bacteria, yeasts and molds that protects the cheese while still allowing it to "breath". Of course, the rind flora will contribute to the taste/texture of the cheese and that will be absent with the wax. Still, you'll come up with your own masterpiece. Just as the Alpine cheesemakers had to deal with their limitations, you have to deal with yours. Namely, work!
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: mjr522 on October 20, 2013, 03:20:57 PM
I appreciated the post, too.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: Boofer on October 20, 2013, 04:33:17 PM
It just would miss an important characteristic of an Alpine cheese, which is a natural rind of bacteria, yeasts and molds that protects the cheese while still allowing it to "breath". Of course, the rind flora will contribute to the taste/texture of the cheese and that will be absent with the wax.
I've come upon a compromise of sorts. By letting a hard cheese (I love Beaufort (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11991.0.html).) develop a "cultured" rind, it has a chance to develop additional flavor and character. Then I will cream-coat it to protect it and still allow it to breathe and exchange gases. That has worked well for me.

At some point during the affinage, I will further protect the cream-coated cheese by vacuum-sealing it. I realize that this curtails any future exchange of gases, but as I said, it's a compromise.

Thanks for that link. Nice.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on October 20, 2013, 08:50:23 PM
Lovely blog,  thank you!
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on October 20, 2013, 08:54:33 PM
Bookmarked already. Thanks Tim.
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: Pete S on October 21, 2013, 12:25:31 AM
    How long do you let the culture ripen before you rennet ---Pete
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: SouthernCheese on October 21, 2013, 11:47:32 AM
one hour
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: Alpkäserei on October 22, 2013, 03:20:08 AM
Hello,

when passing along a whey culture, this needs to be used the next day, or if prepared differently it can be a 2-day culture instead. however, 2-day cultures are less safe and less controllable and today in Switzerland, farmers are discouraged from using them.

You can, however, take a bit of whey and freeze it, then use this to make a new mother culture. Use the whey as a culture to make yogurt, somewhere you can find I have a post here about whey cultures and how we do them.

You would need about 1 liter of whey culture (Sirtenkultur, in Switzerland) for every 100 to 150 liters of milk (precision with the culture is not that important, unlike rennet) or if you make yogurt, about 2 to 3 dl yogurt per 100 liter milk.

hope this answers the question about whey culture.


Also, I posted on your blog but I will say here too, I'd be glad to fill you in a little on the history and why it is Alpine cheeses are made the way they are. In some areas you are right, some you are part right, some, well, not so much. I like to see that our culture is understood, cheese is a very important part of our heritage, and the specifics as to why it is made the way it is and how are also important to who the people are.

I'd also be glad to fill in and show you how your methods compare to the traditional methods, you might be interested in comparing them (like many things, the New World method of making Gruyere is quite a bit different)

Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: jwalker on November 03, 2013, 02:31:21 PM
I made a four gallon wheel of this yesterday , i will start a post on it.

But i was wondering , when googling "Gruyere" , I noticed in some of the photos , the cheese had some good sized eyes in them.

Is that normal , or natural , or do some makers add Shermanii to it? :o

Was thinking of adding some to todays make , so if anyone has any info on it , let me know.
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: Pete S on November 03, 2013, 04:53:08 PM
  It depends if you want to make old world style cheese or new world style. In old world style eyes were considered a defect.   Pete
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: Boofer on November 04, 2013, 02:35:54 PM
the cheese had some good sized eyes in them.

Is that normal , or natural , or do some makers add Shermanii to it? :o
PS is added to some alpines not with the intent to develop eyes, but to give the cheese that "alpine" character (propionic acid). Beaufort is one such style. Without the Warm Phase, the eyes are not encouraged to develop.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: jwalker on November 04, 2013, 03:35:19 PM
Yes , thanks for the replies , I added some PS to yesterdays make.

I do like the flavour it imparts to the cheese , I won't put it thru a warm phase tho.
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: Kirkbybil on March 12, 2014, 04:32:24 PM
Hi,

I have just ordered 4 gallons of Raw milk to collect tomorrow - my first attempt at raw milk cheese, and I was going to make this Gruyere recipe. I bookmarked it and just went back to read it and it has gone!

Did anyone copy the recipe or can anyone recommend a tried and tested one for Gruyere?

Otherwise, looks like a cheddar..... :)
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on March 12, 2014, 05:57:07 PM
Not Gruyere, but this Beaufort by Sailor is fantastic!  Give it a try if you can't find your Gruyere protocol.

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11079.0.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11079.0.html)

- Jeff
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: Kirkbybil on March 12, 2014, 07:23:53 PM
Thanks Jeff, I don't even know what a Beaufort is (I thought it was something to do with wind :D) but I've seen quite a few write ups of Boofers, I think, so if it is a swiss style I may give it a go.

I only have TA061 and a general mesophillic (I think it's MA400) starter so I assume these will be ok? Any thoughts?
I will reduce amounts by 25% for raw milk.

Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on March 12, 2014, 08:10:28 PM
Hi Kirkbybil,
TA061 is Strep.Therm, and so is ST B01.  Probably different strains, but should be similar enough to what I used.  MA400 is supposed to be a good allround mesophillic, so that should be fine too.  If you're going to be getting into thermophillic cheeses, you might want to pick up some LH100, which as I understand it helps to develop the flavours as the cheese ages.  You could fire in a bit of active Greek Yogurt, just to get some other cultures into the mix, but you're working with raw milk, so you may be fine on that.

Beaufort isn't supposed to have eyes, but the one I made had a great swiss flavour (the PS strain I have is a low gass one, so it isn't supposed to produce eyes).  You'll want to age this out at least 6 months, but it is well worth the wait.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: Kirkbybil on March 12, 2014, 08:55:16 PM
Thanks Jeff,

I have some PS which is either a low gas strain or my last Emmentaler just didn't expand! I'll add a pinch. I've been reading up and I think it was Sailor who said that if using raw milk you shouldn't need the messo starter. Choices, choices. I'll wing it as usual, I generally seem to end up with a nice cheese - sometimes no resemblance to what I was aiming for, but nice nevertheless.

I'll post the make. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: jwalker on March 12, 2014, 10:12:19 PM
Yes , that link is gone ! :o

That is one of my favorite cheeses !

Luckily , I copied the recipe onto one of my recipe cards >:D , if you still want it , I will post it here for you.

Let me know.
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: Kirkbybil on March 13, 2014, 12:21:36 PM
Hi - Yes please, I usually print them but this time I didn't. If you can post then that would be great.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: shotski on March 19, 2014, 11:19:16 PM
Yes , that link is gone ! :o

That is one of my favorite cheeses !

Luckily , I copied the recipe onto one of my recipe cards >:D , if you still want it , I will post it here for you.

Let me know.

Hey jwalker, Please post the recipe. I did not see the original link but would like the recipe.

John
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: jwalker on March 20, 2014, 06:01:47 PM
OK , here it is , hope it's right , I didn't print it out word for word , I just wrote it down on one of my recipe cards , it's the way I have been doing it and it has been producing some nice cheese , I have about 5 of these aging now.

I hope this is close to the original , but it's what I wrote down and it's been working for me.

The highlighted text is my personal take.

4 gals milk. (I have been having good luck with P?H on this recipe too!)
heat to 90
add 1/3 tsp. Thermo.  (I use a little F.D. as well 1/8 tsp.)
Maintain temp for 1 hour.
Add Calcium wait ten minutes.
Add rennet ( I use 1/2 tablet for 4 gals.)
Floc time should be 40-60 min. ( I use the full 60)
Cut curd small and stir till rice sized grains. (you'll get these anyway if using P/H milk.)
Heat slowly to 130 stirring occasionally to keep from matting.
Press into a mass under whey , maintain temp.
Drain after 40 min. break up curd mass and put in cloth lined mold.
Press with light weight for 15 min.
Flip and re-press with enough weight to close rind. (I didn't put weights down as everybody seems to have their own , I go light 10 lbs.)
Flip once more , Six hours in mold. (I do the final press with no cloth for a smooth rind.)
Brine overnight.
If you want a washed rind which is the proper way , wash with 1 gal. water , some B.Linens , and 70 oz. coarse salt.
Every second day for a week or two , then once a week.
Or wax ( I wax some and they are very mild , and popular with friends)
Age 6 months or more. ( my waxed ones make a really nice cheese at 3 months , very mild though)
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: H-K-J on March 20, 2014, 07:35:19 PM
jwalker
what type Thermo are you using or would you use.
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: Al Lewis on March 20, 2014, 10:03:26 PM
I keep getting an error code on the link Tim.

Error 404 - Page not found!
The page you trying to reach does not exist, or has been moved. Please use the search box below to find what you are looking for.
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: Alpkäserei on March 20, 2014, 11:04:16 PM
as per the original, and if you are close to it,

pretty much. a few differences to note, though

most modern Gruyere does add a touch of PS, although it is not put through a warm phase like Emmentaler
L'Etivaz, which is essentially Gruyere of 100 years ago omits this.

60 minute floc is excessive. 50 minutes I think is the maximum stipulated in the regulations for Gruyere in Switzerland. 40 minutes is normal
cutting of the curd should take 10 minutes. Adjust how you cut to do so.

The curd should be brewed for 20 to 30 minutes after cutting (stirred gently so as not to continue to break the curd) this helps the flavor to develop

130 degrees is too high. Think more like 126 to 128. those few degrees make a big difference. Heating should take 40 minutes
You have a long floc time, which would give a soft cheese, but then you cook it hot which dries it out.
You might have a better cheese if instead you floc it less, but cook it less, resulting in the same hardness but at the same time giving you a better curd. If I were to guess, I would say your cheese is fairly soft, but tending toward the crumbly side a little bit?
Swiss Gruyere is hard but smooth.

Also, I don't get the press and then break up mass and repress. We always will put the curd straight into the mold and press it right out of the vat into the cheese.
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: jwalker on March 21, 2014, 02:34:52 PM
Quote
what type Thermo are you using or would you use.

I have been using TA61 as that's the only one I have.

Alp , this one called for no Shermanii , or I would have made note of it , I have added Shermanii to some and liked it tho.

You're probably right about 60 minutes being a bit excessive when using fresh raw milk , but not when using P/H milk , the extra time is usually needed for a good curd set.

130 was what the original recipe said , that may be his personal preference , I sometimes wonder if there is much difference in a two degree spread , especially when using a Chinese made thermometer , most are not even that accurate. ;D

I have no idea why it is pressed into a mass under whey , but that was in the recipe , as well something about hanging it to drain in cheese cloth afterward (something I don't do , so didn't really make note of it).
I like to put the curd straight into the mold as you do.

Some one could probably email him for the original recipe word for word , but this was pretty much it , and it makes a nice cheese.


Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 21, 2014, 02:42:08 PM
Jwalker, the shermanii isn't for gas production, but rather for flavor and aroma effect.  It's quite muted, when compared to emmental, but most use at least some; and Francois and others reminded me, it's likely very plentiful on alpage forage, so it's there naturally.  Those of us not blessed with high-mountain pasture, well...
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: jwalker on March 21, 2014, 04:35:30 PM
Jwalker, the shermanii isn't for gas production, but rather for flavor and aroma effect.  It's quite muted, when compared to emmental, but most use at least some; and Francois and others reminded me, it's likely very plentiful on alpage forage, so it's there naturally.  Those of us not blessed with high-mountain pasture, well...

Yes , it's not just for gas , I use it just for flavor as well , as I don't put it thru a warm phase for gas production , and I do like the flavor.

Maybe why he didn't include it in the recipe , is that it is naturally present in his milk ?

I've done them with and without , they are different , but both are good , I've also included lipase in some , and come out with something stronger , much like a young Parmesan.

 One of the main reasons I like this make is that it produces a nice cheese with store bought P/H milk , which is sometimes all that is available to many of us. :(
Title: Re: Blog Post - How to make Gruyere/Alpine cheese
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 21, 2014, 05:00:25 PM
I guess what I meant is that I think it's a necessary component of gruyere - but it's a very small component.  But that also probably comes with my messing around with Beaufort (really, Abondance) makes - Beaufort is quite low in propionic, compared to Gruyere (and higher in salt level, so, doubly acting against any kind of pronounced propionic character).  And I was once piqued by Francois's comment on the natural propionic in alpine forage.  Alp mentions L'Etivaz, a small area of strict traditionalists I hold a ton of respect for (man - I love their cheese); want to visit and see firsthand what they do.  I'd also love to see a chemical breakdown of their cheeses and forage - to see what they start with in terms of alpine grasses, herbs, flowers.

Anyway, just my thoughts, sounds cool what you're doing.