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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cheddared (Normally Stacked & Milled) => Topic started by: MrsKK on July 14, 2009, 12:02:11 PM

Title: Dry cheese question
Post by: MrsKK on July 14, 2009, 12:02:11 PM
My cheddar and Derby cheeses seem to end up really dry.  They tend to crumble apart when I cut them and the curd doesn't knit very tightly, though it does hold together well when I take it out of the press.

Am I cooking the curd too long?  Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: wharris on July 14, 2009, 03:48:30 PM
Off hand, this sounds like a classic over acidification problem with your cheesemilk. You might have cheese that is too acidic.

IF you can measure the pH of your cheese now, that will confirm.  Your cheese should be in the pH4.7 to pH5.2 range.  if it is lower than that, you are too acidic.

(I think that is a valid range, i will verify a bit later as I am at work right now.)
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: MrsKK on July 15, 2009, 02:27:20 AM
I don't have a pH meter.

So, what stops cheese from becoming more acidic?
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: linuxboy on July 15, 2009, 03:24:18 AM
I don't have a pH meter.

So, what stops cheese from becoming more acidic?

Low temp and salt. You want to slow the action of the bacteria, and then kill it off to start proteolysis.
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: marianstock on July 15, 2009, 09:49:59 AM
is there a way of testing the ph of cheese that has already been pressed?
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: MrsKK on July 15, 2009, 11:06:26 AM
wow, Linux, you'll have to tone it down for this country gal!  What is proteolysis?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: linuxboy on July 15, 2009, 04:23:56 PM
Woops, sorry. Too much cheese book reading :). So after the bacteria do their thing and bring down the pH, they run out of food or can't live properly because of salt and/or the lower temperature. Over the weeks, they start dying off. When they die off, their cells break apart. Inside those cells are enzymes (called proteases), and the enzymes start working on breaking up proteins and producing a bunch of other stuff (like smaller proteins, amino acids) that give cheeses their flavor and aroma. That entire process of breaking down proteins is called proteolysis.

So long as bacteria have a happy environment, they'll keep making acid. Bacteria do not like salt, and like a range of warm temperatures, depending on if it's meso or thermophilic. For example, for cheddar, after you salt the milled curd, the acid development doesn't stop entirely, but pretty close. It's enough to press and keep the pressed cheese at room temp without worrying that the acid will keep developing.

marianstock, to answer your question, a few ways exist for measuring pressed cheese pH. You can cut off a piece and put your pH probe directly to it. Or you can take a piece, puree it with reverse osmosis or distilled water that has a pH of 7, and then measure the pH of the puree.
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: linuxboy on July 15, 2009, 04:29:27 PM
Here's a quick trick if you don't have a pH meter for knowing when to stop cheddaring: stop when the melted curd stretches. Take a piece of the curd and nuke it in the microwave for 5-10 secs, then pull on one end and see if it will stretch. It's similar to testing for spin when making mozzarella. Cheese starts to spin somewhere around pH 5.3, and that's a good point to mill and salt cheddar.
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: MrsKK on July 16, 2009, 11:45:26 AM
Thank you for the education, Linux!  I have to admit that I'm not as scientific about my cheesemaking as many of you are, but by hanging out here I'm learning so much and hopefully improving my cheese making.

Thanks for the quick trick!  I will definitely try that next time I make cheddar.  I think it would work well for Derby, too.
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: DeejayDebi on July 17, 2009, 03:28:10 AM
Never tried that with cheedar only pasta fileta cheeses.
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: wharris on July 17, 2009, 11:14:44 AM
I don't now about the rest of you, but I am continually impressed with Linux-boys knowlege.

Linuxboy, What cheese books do you read?
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: MrsKK on July 18, 2009, 01:50:28 AM
Maybe he doesn't need to read the books - he may have come pre-installed with that computer chip!
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: wharris on July 18, 2009, 01:52:41 AM
a computer chip  lol

running Windows?


LOL
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: DeejayDebi on July 18, 2009, 02:48:18 AM
I don't now about the rest of you, but I am continually impressed with Linux-boys knowlege.

Linuxboy, What cheese books do you read?

His technical expertise is amazing! Always ahs some obscur bit of knowledeg that your never read anywhere that just put the icing on the cake! Well done!
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: MrsKK on July 18, 2009, 10:47:27 AM
When I was in my early thirties, I took my first computer class.  Within 6 years, I was involved in programming the new system for the hospital I worked for and teaching nurses how to use the program.  I had to learn it the hard way, though, it seemed, whereas my kids just picked up a mouse and tapped a keyboard and were zooming along.

I always said that they were born with computer chips, while I had to reprogram my brain...
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: DeejayDebi on July 18, 2009, 05:45:39 PM
Our kids were raise with the concept of computing when everything was already understood where for us it was something strange and new  and nobody really knew what they would be able to do until you wrote the code. We also learned on computers with pixels the size of golf balls and limited programing languages. We learned as the rest of the world learned what these fanstinanting machines could do.

Now everyones an expert! They even have books for dummies!
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: linuxboy on August 06, 2009, 06:29:12 PM
I don't now about the rest of you, but I am continually impressed with Linux-boys knowlege.

Linuxboy, What cheese books do you read?


Thanks for all the kind words, everyone. I'm here to try and learn, like everyone else :)

Here's a short list of books or references I like:

Cheese and fermented milk foods by Frank Kosikowski
American farmstead cheese by Paul Kindstedt
Cheesemaking Practice by Andrew Wilbey et al
Applied Dairy Microbiology, by Elmer H. Marth
Advanced Dairy Chemistry: by Paul L.H. McSweeney, et al
Fundamentals of Cheese Science, by Fox, McSweeny, et al
The Dairy Processing Handbook that TetraPak produces


I've recently read Cheese Rheology and Texture, written by an Indian fellow and Cheese Problems Solved, edited by McSweeney.

Most of those get pretty far into geek territory. If you're looking for something more helpful to the everyday, check out The Fabrication of Farmstead Goat Cheese by Jean-Claude Le Jaouen. Also Margaret Morris wrote The Cheesemaker's Manual and it's very good. I also like Peter Dixon's annual journal, which you can get here: http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/publications.shtml (http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/publications.shtml)

Creamline often has good articles, too. Oh and there's a new book out that I like written by Debra Amrein-Boyes: 200 Easy Homemade Cheese Recipes.

I read a lot  :P
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: pamaples on August 06, 2009, 08:10:36 PM
And, you retain what you read; even better!
Title: Re: Dry cheese question
Post by: DeejayDebi on August 06, 2009, 09:47:27 PM
I highly recommend Margaret Morris's book for begining or advanced cheese makers that like plain simple language. She's a really nice lady too. She even signed my copy for me. If you buy it from her website it's cheaper than most places I have found.

http://glengarrycheesemaking.on.ca/kitvideo.htm (http://glengarrycheesemaking.on.ca/kitvideo.htm)

My only complaint is there is no index in the back but it is clear and easy to understand.

I also really enjoyed:

American farmstead cheese by Paul Kindstedt it made a lot of things I saw while making cheese blindly over the years very clear. A bit more technical but not to bad. You can always skip the sections on starting a business.

I also purchased - 200 Easy Homemade Cheese Recipes by Debra Amrein-Boyes a few months ago based on a recommendation on the Danlac website. I am trying her Munster recipe now. We shall see. Pretty good book. IMHO it's much better than Ricki Carrol's book for beginers or advanced cheesemakers. I have compared it to about 120 of my own recipes and so far I have found no errors other than my own.