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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Rennet Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: AndreasMergner on January 27, 2013, 04:06:57 PM
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I made a Cam last year as my second molded cheese. It turned out pretty well, but then I read how you are *supposed to* make it and realize I made a couple mistakes, most importantly, the cold ripening. I used iratherfly's classic Cam in 10 steps recipe.
I'm using P/H milk because I figure my technique still needs improving before I invest my time to drive 40 minutes to the only local source of raw milk. I also only have MA11 for ripening cultures. I really should get some others that everyone seems to be using. I need a recommendation on which (several?) I should get!
Make went well, I think. I hit all the pH and temp markers. The molded curd seemed nice and soft which seems different from any other make including my cams last year. I tried to keep stirring to a minimum since all of my cheeses seem to end up too dry.
pH at molding was 6.36 and was 5.95 at demolding/salting. They ended up a little thicker than last time I made them. Here they are in the ripening box ready to go in the cave.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/734593_4719003205779_75733118_n.jpg)
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congratulations! They look quite nice. Don't know if iratherfly's recipe mentions it but when the PC growth gets going you're supposed to tap/press it down regularly. moving to colder temps in time seems important as well and I often seem to miss the day I really should be doing that. >:(
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Thanks! I'm pretty happy with the make (so far). :P
I didn't read the part about tapping the mold down in iratherfly's recipe, but I have read that before. Good thing you reminded me because I already forgot!
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I like the flavor I get using Flora Danica in my Camembert. It can be used in any recipe that 200 easy cheeses calls for an aroma meso culture.
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I also only have MA11 for ripening cultures. I really should get some others that everyone seems to be using. I need a recommendation on which (several?) I should get!
I know there have been discussions in the past about what cultures a new cheesemaker might get, but I don't seem to have that link at hand. Can anyone else point Andreas to the right info? It's something that should be in the FAQ board.
I have found reasonable success with the following:
- TA-61 thermophilic for Swiss, Parmigiano, Romano, Mozzarella
- Alp D meso/thermo mix (LL, LLC, LLD, ST, LBH, LBL) for semi-hard and hard cheeses
- Aroma B or Flora Danica mesophilic (LL, LLC, LLD, LMC) for Havarti, Baby Swiss, Gouda, Edam
- MA4000 meso/thermo mix (LL, LLC, LLD, ST) for Brick, Cheddar, Gouda, Colby, Camembert, Brie
- MM100 meso (LL, LLC, LLD) for Gouda, Edam, Cam
- Propioni shermanii for eye/hole development in alpines
- PLA (B. linens, Arthrobacter nicotianae, Geotrichum candidum, Debaryomyces hansenii) for morge treatment of rinds in hard cheeses
- SR3 (Brevbacterium linens) for rind development and protection and paste maturation(orange)
There are certainly a lot more cultures available, but these have been the framework for a lot of the cheeses I have made. I keep them in their original foil pouches and vacuum-seal them after opening to protect them from moisture in my freezer. Seems to work very well. The TA-61, Alp D, Aroma B, and MA4000 were also mother-cultured to extend/expand the culture and save a little money.
I didn't include Penicillium roqueforti (PR) or Penicillium candidum (PC) because you can grab them from store-bought cheeses.
I've grown really fond of Alp D and PLA. They're wonder cultures for me.
HTH.
-Boofer-
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Who makes the Alp D? I haven't seen much about that one. Sounds interesting. :)
I use mostly the MA4000 series and MM100 series although I also use some adjunct cultures such as MD88 or LM57 sometimes. I have PC VB and Geo13 although I'm wondering about a different Geo when I run out of this one. I do also have TA61 for the parms. I also have been appreciating the Mycodore for rind development. I like how it makes the cheese smell like fresh mushrooms. (I haven't tasted one yet because they are still aging but I do always smell the cheeses when I check them, give those that need it a little massage, etc.). With all the wiping out of moist boxes of certain cheeses it can feel almost like I'm changing cheese diapers. :-\
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Thanks for all that great info, Boofer! What are the acronyms LL, LLC, etc.? I would like to get a few of those, but why can't you blend a meso and thermo to get a mix instead of buying the already mixed type?
Do you think the PLA is better than just using b linens plus geo?
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AndreasMergner
MM100-101
the cultures in the packet
(LL) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
(LLC) Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
(LLD) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis biovar diacetylactis
(freeze-dried direct set/DVI-Direct Vat Innoculation)
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Who makes the Alp D? I haven't seen much about that one. Sounds interesting. :)
See the attached.
With all the wiping out of moist boxes of certain cheeses it can feel almost like I'm changing cheese diapers. :-\
:o :P Whoa! Thanks for that lingering image...(must scrub mind out thoroughly!)
why can't you blend a meso and thermo to get a mix instead of buying the already mixed type?
Do you think the PLA is better than just using b linens plus geo?
You can certainly mix your own "custom blend" for whatever you want. Someone else has already determined an optimal blend so why should I try to figure out something better?
PLA, as you can see, includes 2 linens cultures (B. linens & Arthrobacter) as well as a yeast and Geo. My experience has been very good using it.
I've included the Alp D and PLA docs plus a couple culture selection docs.
-Boofer-
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Thanks for all the great info! I will definitely have to order at least some of these very soon.
I think the Cams are doing well. I've been wiping out the containers twice a day and flipping them. They now are getting some Geo slime (now I know what that is!) on the sides and it looks like the ends have both cream and snowy white colors on them. Something good is happening! It is too subtle for pics, but I'm sure I'll have something more interesting to show in a couple of days.
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The last couple days I have opened the ripening container to a smell similar to white wine. I think I might have some linens growing on the cheese, although I'm not sure if the smell is coming from it or not. I don't know what Geo smells like. I do know that I have not gotten much PC growth yet. They have stayed pretty moist and I've tried to dry them a bit over the last few days by leaving them out for a bit.
I'd love to get a bit of wisdom on whether I'm on the right track or not. The recipe says to expect PC bloom at around 2 weeks and I'm at 12 days so if they fully bloom in 6 more days that is no problem...but that smell has me a little worried.
In the pic you can see a very slight orangey-ness just to the right of the top corner facing you....or maybe it is too slight. :)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/405733_4854939124092_106118122_n.jpg)
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They look a bit dry, like a batch I made that had trouble growing PC. I ended up wrapping mine when I had about 30% PC coverage and they eventually got a thick PC coat, almost too thick. It went from under ripe to liquid in a week. What is your aging temperature?
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52 degrees F. That's helpful info. They were much wetter a few days ago and slimy. They were wet and an not moist, plus the smell got me paranoid of linens since it happened to my Stilton.
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Here's what works for me:
After draining and removing the cheeses from their molds, I keep them in their ripening box, loosely covered, at room temp on the kitchen counter. I'm religious about keeping any accumulating moisture wiped up and turn them daily. They usually begin to bloom in 3-4 days. When they are fully bloomed, I move them to the colder room and continue to flip them daily, wipe the box, and pat down the mold.
I also quit using Geo as it seems to always lead to the dreaded slip skin.
It took me several tries to figure out what works for the milk I use and the conditions that I have.
Pam
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Pam, thanks for that info.
I have been wiping out moisture every day (twice a day for the first 5 days). I had good Geo growth, but PC has been a bit slow. I don't remember a problem last time I did it and I think I used Geo then also. I think I read that slip skin can be prevented by wrapping and refrigerating the cheese to allow the PC to grow deep into the cheese while the Geo is dormant at that temp. This is the first time I will be trying that technique so it is only what I have read! I don't think I did anything drastically wrong, so hopefully it will turn out ok.
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They slimy was, more than likely, a geo party going to town. The problem with these kinds of cheeses is you need the correct amount of moisture in the cheese as well as in the air to make them work right...I find that humidity levels (for me) of 95-99% are perfect for geo and pc growth. Once the rind dries somewhat, it can be dificult to get the pc growing properly.
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BB, I still have about 95%+ humidity in the container. The PC is just having a hard time with the geo. I have growth of PC in the grid under the cheese, so my humidity can't be that off. They are starting to get soft in some places so I figured I'd wrap them now for the fridge before they get slip skin. Someone told me that their PC grew to cover the cheese while in the fridge so I'm crossing my fingers. Here they are:
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/p206x206/480174_4893185120218_312539968_n.jpg)
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It has been my experience, and recommended by forum folks that if you maintain temp at 50F you should not have trouble with slip skin and are best off leaving them in the container rather then wrapping the cheeses prior to ripening. Think of it this way...if you take the cheese and reduce the temp from 50F to 37F then your cheeses will take much longer than 4 weeks to mature, if at all. Longer time in the fridge also means additional moisture loss which will affect the paste.
I experimented with some wrapping of cheese prior to being fully ripened and it is my standard procedure now to leave in the container at 50F until fully ripe and then transfer to fridge (actually at least half get eaten before ever making it to the fridge). It seems normal for the rind to become a bit stiffer while the inside softens causing some sinking inward of the centers of the cheese but you should not experience a full blown slip skin provided temp and humidity are correct. Most often slip skin issues are the result of too high a ripening temp (ie: 55F or higher).
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Dang, I thought I had good info on this since it was iratherfly's recipe. I put one in the 50-52 degree cave. I left the other two in the fridge because I don't mind them taking longer....but then you mention moisture loss. Ok, I guess I'll unwrap them all and put them back in a container in the cave. :-/
Thanks for info BB!
They don't seem to be doing much, to tell you the truth. My Reblochon is the same way.... Do you also recommend that it stay in the cave also?
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Hey, Andreas - how did these turn out? I'm thinking you must have tried them by now? Very curious.
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Brandnetel, I tried one just now. They have been doing similarly to my Reblochon. They have been leaking liquidy cheese from just below the rind while I can tell that the center is still firm. I ended up lowering my cave temp to 45, but that didn't seem to help at all. Here's a pic:
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/549974_10200184743954059_1130485692_n.jpg)
The paste is softer than that of the Reblochon, but doesn't seem to have ripened except for the 1/4" near the rind. The flavor is much stronger than the Reblochon. It actually tastes pretty good, but wish it was softer in the center and less liquid near the rind.
I am all ears if you want to give me suggestions for next time....or what I can do with these. Not sure if I want to eat it as a table cheese or not.
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Dastardly slip skin - often keeps the interior from ripening further. Here are some ideas for next time.
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4265.msg80208.html#msg80208 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4265.msg80208.html#msg80208)
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First off...they appear to be a bit on the thick side. The form factor is important since camemberts ripen from the outside in. If they are too thick they will not ripen in the interior.
Secondly...I think next time you should try keeping temp at 50F and 95% RH and forget the wrapping until they are fully ripened. Then wrap and stick in your fridge at 37ish once fully ripened in order to give them a longer shelf life. I cannot say for sure how the slip skin occurred, but as long as you stick to 50F and 95% humidity that should be minimal.
I have not had good luck when wrapping my cheese prior to them being ripe....I have had great success ripening them in the container under the above conditions. Anything above 1 inch or so thickness tends to leave a center that is a bit chalky. Nothing wrong with it other than the texture isnt really what you are looking for.
After I have added rennet and waited the x6 flocc multiplier time from rennet addition I just ladle the curds straight into the camembert forms until they are full. They will shrink as they drain until they are 1/4-1/3 their original height which is about what you want. I usually wait extra time before flipping them the first time. I want them to be about 1/2 or maybe a bit higher than their original height before the first flip, otherwise it is likely to get really messy. Then I flip them every 4 hours or so as I am able for a day or so, and then twice daily until they come out of the molds. I remove them from the molds once they have reached 1/4-1/3 original height. Then they are ready for salting...I salt the top side and then wait until the salt has melted/been incorporated into the cheese and then flip and salt the bottom (which is now the top) as well as the actual sides of the cheeses.
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Another possible glitch:
pH at molding was 6.36 and was 5.95 at demolding/salting
Thats way too high. you need to get it down to 4.7-4.8. acidity has a major influence on protein behavier and the way enzyme work, maybe Pav could comment on this?
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Another possible glitch:
pH at molding was 6.36 and was 5.95 at demolding/salting
Thats way too high. you need to get it down to 4.7-4.8. acidity has a major influence on protein behavier and the way enzyme work, maybe Pav could comment on this?
I missed that...yes, It should be in the 4.8 range. The objective is for the PC to raise the pH as part of the ripening process.