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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cheddared (Normally Stacked & Milled) => Topic started by: Dulcelife on June 07, 2012, 06:43:38 PM

Title: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: Dulcelife on June 07, 2012, 06:43:38 PM
Okay, so there are plenty of long term prospects in the cave and even a Lancashire for fairly quick gratification.

This weekend I have decided to venture into the world of Havarti which I have grown quite fond of in the last couple of weeks.

So my dilemma is deciding which of the numerous recipes to adopt.  I will be heat treating my raw Jersey milk in the interest of making a Havarti I can cut into in 30 to 60 days  I am looking to come close to the commercial creamy Havarti I have been eating which has a pretty soft flexible paste, good buttery flavor and only a slight tangy aftertaste.

I have reviewed the John (CH)'s comparison which I have consolidated into an easy to read comparison spreadsheet (attached).

I am looking for advise from all Havarti-iers.  Those who have used one or more of the makes in the spread (hello deejay Debi), and or custom makes that have yielded exceptional creamy results.

Obviously, not sitting together sampling and discussing different Havarti recipes, makes this a thankless task but, alas any help, opinions, rants, etc.  will be highly appreciated and I thank you in advance for taking the time.

Cheer-rios

Lou
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: FRANCOIS on June 07, 2012, 08:18:32 PM
The Morris recipe isn't for creamy havarti.  It's a totally different cheese.

You can use virtually any standard meso, MM100 is fine as is FD or MA series.

The only critical step is washing the curd and making sure it runs at a high pH.  Interesting that the recipes all call for addition of salt prior to pressing.  I suppsoe you'll need that for home use.  Industrially we press this cheese only an hour or two and it's right into brine after that, which is essentially the same as adding salt to the curd.  You need to slow the acid development.

Vac bag and refrigerate at 4C for 8 weeks will yield the best texture.

HINT -  use FD for the butter flavour and pre-press under whey to try and get some of the lactose out before you put the curd into the press.  This will help you to keep your pH up.
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: Dulcelife on June 07, 2012, 09:03:59 PM
Francois: Fascinating!  This is definitely a new twist on all I have read.  Please, do elaborate:

At what pH should whey be pitched/drained.  Can you offer any other pH markers?
How long should I press under whey? Can I fore-go molding and press in cloth?
Is the one to two hour press prior to brine post "whey press" or including.
Is there an alternate for FD for the butter flavor?  Flora Danica? Aroma B?
Would MA 4001/4002 work for both? or combined with Aroma B?

Thank you in advance for your help!!
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: FRANCOIS on June 07, 2012, 09:26:56 PM

The industrial process for making this cheese consists of:
-normal make
-run curds through a casomatic tower.  This is your pre-press under whey, but inside a machine that creates a pressure tower of whey.
-Press at 30-40 psi for a few hours.
-Dehoop and brine for a few days.  Brine is normally chilled to 12C.

Your specific questions:
-pH markers:  if you don't have the vat empty by 6.4, you are going to have a problem with the cheese.
-pre-press time is an unkown for me, as I don't do this process.  It's a consinuous process through a casomatic tower.
-FD is flora danica.  It's similar to Aromatic B.  It's the LD in it that gives it the butter flavour.  I'd use Aromtic B if you don't have FD.
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on June 08, 2012, 09:21:26 AM
Dulce - Keep in mind that Francois is talking about pressing at 30-40 psi.
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: Dulcelife on June 08, 2012, 11:32:43 AM
Dulce - Keep in mind that Francois is talking about pressing at 30-40 psi.

Yes sir, I believe 950.332 lbs. is a little beyond my little spring press.
Thanks for watching my back as we say in New York City. 8)
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: FRANCOIS on June 09, 2012, 08:13:18 AM
That's actually the low end of the press rating.  We use the 1kg kadovas for a cheese and you should see what happens when someone forgets to turn the regulator down.  KABOOM.
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on June 09, 2012, 03:07:46 PM
Francois - I'd love to see a video of that. :o
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: margaretsmall on June 09, 2012, 05:46:35 PM
Having made a couple of havartis (6-8l of milk) I too am a little puzzled by the different recipes. There's one which doesn't press at all -Home cheesemaking by Willman. This also tells you to put the cheese in a cold water bath for 2 hours after it has been in the hoops and flipped frequently for 2 hours. Otherwise standard procedure. I did this one once, but I had no faith that it wouldn't fall apart if I took it out of the hoop before putting it in the cold water (it's not clear on this) so I put it hoop and all into the cold water bath. It went into a brine bath after that. Actually my taster thought this was the best, but he really prefers a mild cheese.

I don't think I could describe any of my attempts as creamy - I've followed the Willman, Morris (twice) and 200EHMC. What to do to get a creamy result? Add cream? Cut the curd larger? I would have thought pressing at this level as Francois suggests would have made for a drier texture. (This is heavy for someone who presses with small barbell weights balanced on top of a tray over the hoop! Primitive I know).
Margaret
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: Boofer on June 10, 2012, 12:57:17 AM
Just a datapoint....

Esrom is a close approximation of a Havarti. I have had some success (here (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,8405.0.html) and here (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9293.0.html)) with creaminess and similarity to regular Havarti.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: FRANCOIS on June 10, 2012, 04:58:40 AM
Creamy havarti refers to the texture.  It doesn't use any added cream, it just has lots of trapped moisture and a high pH.

Un-pressed havarti is a different animal all together.  Yes we press at high pressures, but only for short periods.  The longest we press anything is swiss at just over 5 hours.
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: Dulcelife on June 10, 2012, 09:25:28 AM
Well, I completed the Havarti make as planned.  If any one should have creamy havarti this is it.

I cut the cooking time in half based on pH targets.  I worked my pressing up to nearly 100lbs. and I intend to light-vac-pack (hand vacuum variety) just as soon as the surface dries.

 
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: margaretsmall on June 12, 2012, 05:56:49 PM
Ah. This makes more sense, I think, of the Willman recipe which goes like this:
- heat milk to 32oC
- add culture
- add rennet
- cut curd after set (about 40 min) [I would do the flocc. method]
- replace 1/3 whey with water 60oC to raise temp to 38oC
- stir intermittently 70 minutes
- replace half of whey with cool water to lower temp to 28oC
-Hoop, flip [this recipe doesnt press at all]
- After 2 hours cool in cold water for 1-3 hours depending on size of cheese
- brine 3-4 hours
- Dry, wax, mature 6-10 weeks.

Am I right in assuming that the steps in italics are to stop the pH from dropping further?
The time I followed this I had no confidence that the cheese after only 2 hours in the hoop, unpressed, would retain its shape in a 2 hour cold water bath so  I put it in the bath still in its hoop. I think I would press it and skip the cold water bath.
Margaret
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: Dulcelife on June 12, 2012, 09:29:57 PM
Margeretsmall:  I hear you.  Researching this make was really confusing.  There are simply too many interpretations of this creamy Havarti make.  I think the only solution, assuming it is a cheese that motivates one, is too try them all and find the one that comes closest to what we want.  Then continue to tweak the chosen make until we come ever closer to what is desired.

I finally ventured a Havarti make this weekend and the resulting wheels appear to be moist and flexible as I continue to ripen in a high humidity box for the requisite four weeks, turning daily and monitoring its development.  I initially vacuum-packed but, subsequently unpacked and put in said ripening box after moisture immediately materialized in the bags.

Good luck, keep us posted.

Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: rosawoodsii on October 22, 2012, 03:26:00 PM
Well, I completed the Havarti make as planned.  If any one should have creamy havarti this is it.

I cut the cooking time in half based on pH targets.  I worked my pressing up to nearly 100lbs. and I intend to light-vac-pack (hand vacuum variety) just as soon as the surface dries.

What kind of press do you have that you can go to 100 lbs? One of mine won't go over 50, and the other needs weights stacked on it--I'd never get to 100 lbs!
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: Boofer on October 23, 2012, 09:25:11 AM
Time for a Dutch press. Using a 5 lb weight, I can press with 80 lbs pressure. If I go to 10 lbs, then the pressing power doubles to 160 lbs. Easy peasy.

I believe forum member smolt1 sells them rather affordably here (http://sturdypress.com/). No, I don't get a commission.  ;)

There are quite a few threads on presses and Dutch presses specifically.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: rosawoodsii on October 23, 2012, 10:57:40 AM
I borrowed one from a friend once, but whenever I put a weight on it,, it was out of balance and fell over sideways.  I didn't think about how it worked, or I might have realized that the arm creates torque, just like any other lever.
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: Dulcelife on October 24, 2012, 10:32:52 AM
Well, I completed the Havarti make as planned.  If any one should have creamy havarti this is it.

I cut the cooking time in half based on pH targets.  I worked my pressing up to nearly 100lbs. and I intend to light-vac-pack (hand vacuum variety) just as soon as the surface dries.

What kind of press do you have that you can go to 100 lbs? One of mine won't go over 50, and the other needs weights stacked on it--I'd never get to 100 lbs!

I have a couple of custom made stainless spring presses with 100lb springs.  I have resisted the temptation for a dutchie simply because I have had zero issues thus far even with makes that logic says require more like my cantal.
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: Boofer on October 25, 2012, 01:29:50 AM
Once you find a piece of equipment that works, it makes the job so much more fun and relaxing.

I love the Dutch press I built. It allows maximum flexibility. I designed it so I could fit my big double boiler under it and press "in the pot". Works as designed.  ;)

There are at least two Dutch press builders on the forum who have created really beautiful presses for sale. We're so lucky to have them on the forum.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: rosawoodsii on October 25, 2012, 07:35:40 AM
I love the Dutch press I built. It allows maximum flexibility. I designed it so I could fit my big double boiler under it and press "in the pot". Works as designed.  ;

-Boofer-

Could you post a photo of your press, Boofer?  And another with your double boiler under it?  I would love to see that.
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: Boofer on October 25, 2012, 12:43:41 PM
Could you post a photo of your press, Boofer?  And another with your double boiler under it?  I would love to see that.
Here's my recent make (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10316.0.html).

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: rosawoodsii on October 25, 2012, 04:52:47 PM
That is one impressive press!  Pretty good looking cheese, too.  ^-^
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: H-K-J on October 25, 2012, 05:42:24 PM
Boofers press inspired me so I went and built this one (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9425.msg68019.html#msg68019) 8)
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: bbracken677 on October 25, 2012, 06:46:50 PM
Quite the project! I am highly impressed at the finished piece with all the steps along the way   :)
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: rosawoodsii on October 25, 2012, 07:22:34 PM
Beautiful press! That's for some serious cheesemaking.  My two milk goats give me enough to do a couple of 4-5 lb cheeses a week.  I'd have to increase my herd--and my milking time--to use a press that big!  :P   
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: Dulcelife on October 26, 2012, 07:13:04 AM
Could you post a photo of your press, Boofer?  And another with your double boiler under it?  I would love to see that.
Here's my recent make ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10316.0.html[/url]).

-Boofer-


That is one good looking pimple cheese Boof.  Nice monster jam press too.
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: margaretsmall on October 26, 2012, 08:28:14 PM
I too am very impressed by the press and hope that my DH will soon feel well enough to make me one. However, my query here is about pressing havarti (my new iPad, hardly under control, just tried to change havarti to navaratalova!) I thought havarti is pressed lightly if at all, not at weights as high as 100lb - have I got this wrong?
Margaret
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: rosawoodsii on October 26, 2012, 09:29:11 PM
The havarti recipe I have, which was passed on to the Maine Cheese Guild from a Dave Potter workshop, has no weight at all.  It's pressed by its own weight.  I had another, same press instructions.
Title: Re: Will the real Havarti please stand up. Help needed.
Post by: Boofer on October 27, 2012, 12:49:41 AM
Using my press, I'd probably use the weight of the lever arm and piston which is 11 lbs. I some cases, I would press in the pot and use a 5 lb weight and not even use the press. It all depends on what the cheese style dictates.

-Boofer-