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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => STANDARD METHODS - Making Cheese, Everything Except Coagulation => Topic started by: Shalloy on February 08, 2013, 11:08:27 PM

Title: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 08, 2013, 11:08:27 PM
Im about to start a camembert using 6 litres skim milk and 400mls of cream as per my recipe. However the instructions say this..

Preparing the Milk. Warm the milk and cream combination to 32°C (if using homogenised milk and no cream, add the Calcium Chloride solution at this time). Add the prepared starter and mix well. Leave covered for 75 minutes to ripen.

So does this mean if I am suing cream I DONT have to use Calcium Chloride?  I tried searching for this but didnt find anything on it. Im about to make a start and have already warmed my milk so am desperate for an answer. I dont want to add the calcium chloride if its going to wreck my cheese.

Thanks
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 09, 2013, 12:00:34 AM
Well I needed to get a move on so I added the calcium..But I stuffed up. I poured some calcium into a small tube so I could draw off 2mls with a syringe and put this into a small cup full of 70mls cooled boiled water. Except I then went and tipped the rest of the calcium chloride from the tube into this cup as well thinking it was water.

result was I just poured around 10-15mls of calcium chloride into 6 litres of milk with 400 mls of cream.  Whats this going to do to my cheese? Have I wrecked it?
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: linuxboy on February 09, 2013, 12:38:06 AM
Proceed as normal. Make sure you acidify the curd all the way to 4.6-4.8 before brining, or it will be a bit firm and likely not run enough.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 09, 2013, 12:49:49 AM
I dont have a ph meter so dont know how to acidify the curd? Also my recipe doesnt say to brine.  Im doing a camembert.

Appreciate the help.

Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 09, 2013, 12:52:03 AM
I also just realised that I stuffed up and only added the flora danica and forgot to add the candidum which I was going to get by mashing up some camembert cheese in a paste with some water. Its been sitting for about 40 mins can I add it now?

My first cheese went well, this is a disaster.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 09, 2013, 12:56:06 AM
Its been sitting for 60 mins actually. Can I add the camembert cheese paste now and let it sit for another 60 mins?
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 09, 2013, 01:28:12 AM
Well my 75 minutes wait time was up and I didn't quite know what to do. So I made up a paste with some camembert and water and poured this in through a sieve and am now letting this sit for 60 mins before adding the rennet.  Hopefully this is okay. I assume this time isnt as important as the time waiting for the curds to set?

When I opened the lid to add the camembert paste the milk had turned a yellow green colour.

Note to self:- Next time make cheese when you guys arent all asleep on the other side of the planet.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 09, 2013, 05:05:45 AM
Well I totally stuffed this cheese. I turned the heat on my urn for a minute to raise the temp a degree (I'm using it as a double boiler setup). And instead of turning it off turned it up full.
The whey ended up looking like cream of chicken soup.
And the curds were like rubber. From 6 litres of milk I ended up with only 2 hoops filled but im not holding my breath that this cheese will be salvageable.

My first cheese was a great success with no problems at all.
I just wasn't meant to make cheese today I guess.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: mtncheesemaker(Pam) on February 09, 2013, 09:19:23 AM
Sounds like everything went wrong that could have! Some days it just doesn't work out.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: bbracken677 on February 09, 2013, 09:44:48 AM
For future reference, yes to adding calcium chloride...I typically add about 3/8 tsp per 2 gallon make, but that can be upped to 1/2 tsp I have seen in many recipes.

Also...for the pc innoculation as per your method, you could just add that on the exterior of the cheese after the cheese is out of the form. I have never tried it that way, although early on I had plans to do it that way. I did make a blue using a piece of blue cheese from a purchased slice. Got a nice blue as a result, so I see no reason why you couldnt do the same with the PC.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: linuxboy on February 09, 2013, 11:50:28 AM
Quote
I dont have a ph meter so dont know how to acidify the curd?
Keep the curds warm when draining by making sure ambient temp is 75-80F.
Quote
Also my recipe doesnt say to brine.
Then salt. Whatever salting step you have, the cam needs to acidify before that.
Quote
poured this in through a sieve and am now letting this sit for 60 mins before adding the rennet.
You don't need to wait at all when adding the mold. There's no reason to.
Quote
And the curds were like rubber.
It was overacidified when you set it with rennet.

it should be alright, texture may be off, though.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: margaretsmall on February 09, 2013, 04:40:08 PM
Dear shalloy,
I can only commiserate. Just one darn thing after another.I'm on the same side of the planet, but I didn't look at your sad story until now, too late to help. Not sure that I could have anyway.  It sounds as though the green colour of the milk which you saw when you added in the mashed up camembert was whey separating from the curds. I wouldn't throw it out, I think you will still get the cam. fuzz and it could well be OK, despite the over abundance of CaCl. Let us know how it is in a couple of weeks time.
Margaret
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 09, 2013, 06:49:07 PM
Unlike my blue recipe this recipe didnt say to drain the curds in cheese cloth. It just said to scoop out 60-70% of the whey then with a slotted spoon scoop the curds into the moulds. Then turn every hour for 5 hours.

I only turned a couple of times as I had to go to bed it was getting late.

This morning I removed the cheese from the molds and have them draining more covered with paper towel. They look quite wet still. So should I wait for half a day before I salt them? Ive also noticed they didnt shrink much in height like my blue did. I also had to salt my curds in the blue recipe and mix with my hands but this recipe just says to sprinkle salt on the top and let sit for 20 mins then turn over and sprinkle the other side and the sides. Then drain on a bamboo mat for 24 hours at room temperature.
Is this just because blue is a saltier cheese than camembert??

@ Linuxboy..So did my curds over acidify because I let the milk sit at 32C for 75 mins with just flora danica and cacl added, then added the camembert paste and let it sit for another 35 mins before adding the rennet?

How do these look in the photos? Should I salt now or let it dry out a bit more?

Thanks everyone for the replies and advice.

Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 10, 2013, 02:02:33 PM
Bump..Anyone???? What will the excessive heat do to this cheese? It got up to around 45C which I then dropped the pot into the sink with some cool water to get it to drop back down again.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: bbracken677 on February 10, 2013, 02:36:15 PM
Camemberts, in my experience, will shrink to 1/3-1/4 their original height in the mold in roughly a day or so....

You might as well salt them now, but I dont think you are going to get the results you are expecting due to the higher form factor....A Cam should be 1"-1.25" tall roughly...perhaps a bit taller may work but the taller ones (1.5 inch) I have made experienced less ripening than desired in the center.  Camemberts ripen from the surface inwards.

I dont think your cheeses would be badly over acidified given that the PC should raise the pH up to around 6 by the end of your aging period. Biggest problem I see is, again, the height of the cheeses....they will ripen around the edges about a half inch or so inward, but not the larger central portion.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 10, 2013, 02:51:25 PM
Why did my cams end up so high in the fist place? Was it the extra CACL i mistakenly added,  the longer acidification time, the higher temperature reached, or the fact that I didnt drain the curds in cheese cloth first?

If the latter why didnt my recipe say to do this?
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: linuxboy on February 10, 2013, 02:54:15 PM
Cut them in half. those are too tall. They're tall because you used enough milk for 4 cams and used only two molds :)
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 10, 2013, 03:00:21 PM
Cut them in half. those are too tall. They're tall because you used enough milk for 4 cams and used only two molds :)

Yes but when I did my blues I filled the hoops right to the top almost and they still shrunk down to the correct size of only around 1.25 inches tall. I thought these would do the same.

I will slice them in half salt the exposed layer than put them in the maturaton box and into my fridge at 10C. I was going to just throw them out as with all of my combined stuff ups I really didnt think they would be worth eating. The curds were very rubbery like mozzarella.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: margaretsmall on February 10, 2013, 03:07:56 PM
Some styles of blue cheese direct you to drain the curd then add the salt before putting it into a form. Camembert is a different type of cheese, so is made differently. Try not to worry about the differences, just follow the directions you have for camembert.  As LB says, you needed more forms - I use 3 for a make of 4l milk. I recently made the mistake of using only 2, I kept ladling curd in until the forms were full, and as a result by the time the centres were softened the outer curd was very runny. Maybe you did this too, or maybe because of the way your curd was so rubbery,  they did not drain down much. I agree with LB, as soon as they feel firm enough to survive amputation, cut them in half. Then put them in whatever you are using as a cave on a rack over something to catch moisture turn them every day and wait for the fuzz to appear.  When they are covered with fuzz wrap them up and put them in your regular refrigerator. Don't throw them out, give them a chance to come good - you won't lose anything will you, by waiting.
Margaret
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 10, 2013, 03:12:14 PM
Thanks Margaret I will do that.

Can I wrap them in the same cheese foil I purchased to wrap my blues in? I assume its the same thing?
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: margaretsmall on February 10, 2013, 03:45:34 PM
Yes, that will be OK. You can buy special cheese wrapping paper, but foil is fine.
Margaret
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 10, 2013, 05:29:20 PM
It is special cheese wrapping foil I received with my blue cheese kit. I just didnt know if it was ok for cams as well or if they required something different.

thanks Margaret.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 10, 2013, 08:41:20 PM
This cheese just doesnt want to make it to a cam. I had it sitting on my bench top overnight on a new bamboo mat I had just brought. The ink from the mat transferred to the top of the cheese marking it with pink lines.
So had to scrape all this off. I cut them in half and then they wouldnt fit in my second aging box without touching each other. So then had to pull the blues out of the larger box. Sanitise both boxes and put the blues in the smaller box and the cams in the larger box.

Ive noticed that the cams are now quite dry after 24 hours at room temp. Also some of the edges have a slightly yellowish to light brown stain on them. Is this normal?

Ive placed a wet cloth in the bottom of both boxes to increase humidty and am checking my hygros calibration now using the salt method.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 10, 2013, 09:12:32 PM
I was thinking of making up a PC slurry to spray onto th surface of my cheese as per insructions in the wiki on the Camembert recipe.

The Wiki says to spray on suface of cheese after 1 day in the cool room. So do I spray one side then turn over the next day and spray the otherside?  Also how often would I repeat this? Searching for the frequency of spraying didnt really find anything.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: linuxboy on February 10, 2013, 09:28:59 PM
Spray every surface. Usually, only once is enough.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 10, 2013, 11:15:37 PM
Ok will do. Here is what they look like with them cut in half. The yellow (and pink) marks are from the crappy bamboo mat which I will now throw in the bin.

Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 11, 2013, 02:31:12 PM
Bump...How do hey look? The surface seems to be too rough so am concerend they wont get covered in mold properly.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: bbracken677 on February 11, 2013, 02:58:14 PM
I do not think the roughness of the surface will have any effect on the pc growth. As long as pH is in the right ballpark along with moisture you should be fine.  Once you have sprayed them, you will want to place them into containers (referred to often as mini-caves) to maintain humidity up in the 90s (95% is considered optimum and has been perfect for my makes).  After a day or 2 at room temp, you will want to then move them into your aging environment, which should be 90-95% humidity and 50-52F. You should see excellent coverage by the PC after a few days. Each day you will want to flip them. Once the PC has fully covered the cheese, it is recommended that you continue to flip daily for a couple of weeks and if PC growth seems to get out of hand (sticking to the mat) you will want to lightly press the growth down.
After a couple of weeks of PC growth you should start to notice a softening just under the surface, which will continue until the end of the 4th week at which point they should be ready for consumption.

I am concerned about the moisture level in the cheese...nothing you can really do about that now. Your cheese appears to be drier than what mine are once out of the forms, but then seeing such in pictures is not the same as being there in person  :)   Hence, I may be worried for no reason and the moisture level may be just fine.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 11, 2013, 07:23:39 PM
Those pics were taken after leaving hem at room temp for 24 hours covered with paper towel. i was concerned they may b a bit dry too. I have them in an aging  container in the fridge at 10C (50F) next to my blues in a seperate container.

I have a piece of wet paper towel in the bottom of both containers but my wireless hygro is only in the smaller container with the blues. The humidity in there is at 91%. I thought the humidty for the cams had to be around 80% so have kept the lid off slightly. Now that youve said it should be 90% also I will close the lid up. When my blues were in their this container held 90% no problems with a wet cloth in the bottom.

is it imperative that you make up the PC slurry, mix it with 200mls water and 2% salt and leave it for 12 hours???

Can I just make up a slurry drain it through a sieve into a spray bottle and use it straight away?
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: linuxboy on February 11, 2013, 07:38:32 PM
Quote
Can I just make up a slurry drain it through a sieve into a spray bottle and use it straight away?
Of course.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: bbracken677 on February 11, 2013, 10:27:52 PM

I thought the humidty for the cams had to be around 80% so have kept the lid off slightly. Now that youve said it should be 90% also I will close the lid up. When my blues were in their this container held 90% no problems with a wet cloth in the bottom.


I keep my RH for cams at 95% or a tad higher...and have never had any problems with PC growing well. I have heard that 90% is also good, but since I have had success at 95 I just repeat the process that works for me. When growing molds you really need a high humidity.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 13, 2013, 03:47:07 AM
ok thats good to know. I sprayed them with some PC slurry last night so hopefully they will start to bloom soon.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 16, 2013, 03:49:04 PM
Well here is what they look like after a week. I sprayed a PC slurry on them twice. Is this PC mould spores or just regular mould?

Also they smell sort of sour like sour cream. Is this normal? Or the result of all my stuff ups with this cheese? If there going to taste sour Id rather ditch them now and make some more.

Thanks once again

Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: bbracken677 on February 17, 2013, 06:36:58 AM
It kinda looks like PC to me, but normally I get a more even growth. That is probably due to the fact I add the PC culture directly to the make, as opposed to spraying on a slurry. I think you are fine. A sour cream smell is not the worst smell you could be smelling at this point   :)

I would suggest patting/lightly smearing the PC with your hands as you flip them daily to help spread the growth. You will be able to "feel" the aging process further along as they begin to soften. In about 4 weeks your paste should be just about right for a try.   

Best of luck with the make. My first cam make was quite a learning experience even though they did not turn out as tasty as I would have liked. Since the first make I have had nothing but success, primarily due to the learnings from the first, combined with the information I gained from the forum posts from the outstanding cheeseheads here on the forum.

Most important learnings I had were regarding moisture control in the cheese (flocculation) and aging (humidity control and temp).
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 17, 2013, 04:12:43 PM
Thanks mate. I did add Pc to the make as well but may have killed it when I accidentally raised my temperature up to 45C. so thought I should spray some on as well.

Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 18, 2013, 02:50:01 PM
As well as the white mould Ive now noticed some blue mould on the surface of the cheese. Is this normal to appear on a camembert? I have them in my cheese cave with some blues but they are both in seperate maturation boxes. Could the blue mould have caused some slight cross contamination?

If so should I just rub it off each time it develops?
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: bbracken677 on February 18, 2013, 03:23:25 PM
Quite possible it is cross contamination... Blue can be very persistent. 

As long as the blue isnt more aggressive than the PC you should be fine. I am not sure how to properly address that, since if you just rub it, you will likely spread the blue. If you try to kill the blue, you would likely also kill the PC.

I think the PC is normally more aggressive than blue and should contain the contamination but it bears keeping an eye on. I have had cams in my cave, in their own container, and havent had problems with cross contamination, other than a couple of very small spots that soon disappeared. With my blues, I tend to get a PC type growth on them after the blue begins to die off, but then I think that is kinda normal.

Perhaps someone else has a good answer?
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 18, 2013, 05:27:47 PM
I must admit the blue spots are very faint and certainly not as aggresive as the PC mould spores which I rubbed in with my finger last night and spread across the cheese as much as possible.

Will keep an eye on it as you suggest and see how it goes.  Thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: bbracken677 on February 18, 2013, 05:32:40 PM
One thing though...Every other cheese I have in my cave does develop some blue at some point or other. I have to stay on top of them constantly or else I wind up with some totally wild rinds.  :)
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 19, 2013, 03:41:25 AM
Here are some pics of the blue mould on my cams. But as you can see they are also starting to get a healthy growth of PC as well.

Do you think this blue mould is nothing to worry about?

Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 20, 2013, 01:58:21 AM
Bump...Anyone??
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: bbracken677 on February 20, 2013, 06:46:33 AM
It looks just a tad dry to me, but then that could just be the pictures.  If they are a bit dry and the PC is struggling, perhaps give it a light misting of distilled water or very weak saline solution.

I dont think you have anything to worry about yet. Wait and see how the PC develops, since it should take over and rule the cheese    :)
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: george (MaryJ) on February 20, 2013, 07:18:00 AM
It looks like the PC is going to have a hard time as it is (looks way too dry to me, too).  Meself, I'd spray it with more PC at this point.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 20, 2013, 02:43:26 PM
I actually thought it felt dry too. I have a wet paper towel in the bottom of the container and the lid is closed. Humidity is around 90% and temperature 10C.
I still have some PC slurry in a spray bottle in the fridge but its about 10 days old. Will it still be okay to use?

Also should I be replacing the wet cloth from time to time? I soaked it in a salt water solution first.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: bbracken677 on February 20, 2013, 03:43:35 PM
I have very little experience with slurries, but personally, I would just try spraying some distilled pure water on them to moisten the surface a bit and see how that works.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 20, 2013, 11:38:25 PM
Ive sprayed some distilled water all over both surfaces and the sides to really give it a good soaking and hopefully will absorb the moisture. I then gave the PC a rub and pat with my fingers. (The wife likes me doing that to her also   :) )

Heres what it looked like before I rubbed it in.

So once I get a full coverage of PC is that when the middle starts to soften?

Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: bbracken677 on February 21, 2013, 07:02:48 AM
it will take a while, but yes.  If all goes well, in about 4 weeks you should have a lovely soft paste inside the rind.
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 25, 2013, 01:00:46 AM
These cams now have a nice covering of PC around the sides and almost a complete covering on both top and bottom surfaces. I broke a small piece off and noticed that they are already starting to go soft in the middle.  Isnt that a bit too early for them to being do this? I thought they had to be completely covered with PC before they would start to go soft??
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Tiarella on February 25, 2013, 06:48:25 AM
Ive sprayed some distilled water all over both surfaces and the sides to really give it a good soaking and hopefully will absorb the moisture. I then gave the PC a rub and pat with my fingers. (The wife likes me doing that to her also   :) )

Heres what it looked like before I rubbed it in.

So once I get a full coverage of PC is that when the middle starts to soften?

I'd like to make a joke about the time differences of the middle softening on cams vs wives but I've only had one cup of tea and I just can't quite figure out how to be witty.  BUT, I can say that it's a sweet thought somehow that you are able to transfer your rubbing and patting techniques from wife care to cheese care and I bet your cheeses feel the love!   ;D
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Shalloy on February 25, 2013, 01:56:48 PM
Ive sprayed some distilled water all over both surfaces and the sides to really give it a good soaking and hopefully will absorb the moisture. I then gave the PC a rub and pat with my fingers. (The wife likes me doing that to her also   :) )

Heres what it looked like before I rubbed it in.

So once I get a full coverage of PC is that when the middle starts to soften?

I'd like to make a joke about the time differences of the middle softening on cams vs wives but I've only had one cup of tea and I just can't quite figure out how to be witty.  BUT, I can say that it's a sweet thought somehow that you are able to transfer your rubbing and patting techniques from wife care to cheese care and I bet your cheeses feel the love!   ;D

Yes and coincedentally the rubbing and patting makes my wife go all soft and gooey on the inside as well.... :) What works for the missus works for the cams..
Title: Re: Do I need calcium chloride if using skim and cream?
Post by: Tiarella on February 25, 2013, 02:30:07 PM
Ive sprayed some distilled water all over both surfaces and the sides to really give it a good soaking and hopefully will absorb the moisture. I then gave the PC a rub and pat with my fingers. (The wife likes me doing that to her also   :) )

Heres what it looked like before I rubbed it in.

So once I get a full coverage of PC is that when the middle starts to soften?

I'd like to make a joke about the time differences of the middle softening on cams vs wives but I've only had one cup of tea and I just can't quite figure out how to be witty.  BUT, I can say that it's a sweet thought somehow that you are able to transfer your rubbing and patting techniques from wife care to cheese care and I bet your cheeses feel the love!   ;D

Yes and coincedentally the rubbing and patting makes my wife go all soft and gooey on the inside as well.... :) What works for the missus works for the cams..

Yes, that's the thought that made me giggle and want to make a joke or pun.  Glad you got it!   ;D