CheeseForum.org » Forum

CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Washed Rind & Smear Ripened => Topic started by: Al Lewis on January 30, 2013, 03:34:59 AM

Title: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 30, 2013, 03:34:59 AM
Okay, I've already messaged a couple of the experts on this and got one great reply from Alp.  Does anyone know of a really good cheese recipe for a washed rind cheese that I can wash with cognac?  Preferably a, short aging, hard cheese.  Also, does anyone have a recipe for Langres or Époisses de Bourgogne?  I saw the picture (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10848.0.html) of the cheese Boofer posted and decided this would be a very tasty treatment for a cheese indeed. :P
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 30, 2013, 04:19:04 AM
Another question!  They never end…which of these B Linens would be best suited to a Langres or Époisses?  http://www.getculture.com/search.php?mode=search&page=1 (http://www.getculture.com/search.php?mode=search&page=1)
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 30, 2013, 04:24:51 AM
Alright, I found a recipe for Époisses. Nothing on here or in my books about Langres though.

2 gallons raw milk
30°C (86F)
¼ tsp Meso II
1/8 tsp geo
Ripen two to three hours
Add 4 drops rennet (in 2 oz H2O)
16-24 hours lactic ripening
Cut curds in 2 in cubes.
Put into molds at pH 4.5
Drain 24-48 hours; flip 2x
Unmold at pH 4.3
Dry salt 1-2% (1 Tbl)
Spray with B linens, and/or put it in brine (raises pH to 5.5!)
Wash every two days for 6 weeks, first with brine, then with ever increasing amount of grappa diluted in water.
Note:  Alternatively, one could add 1/8 tsp B. lines to milk with starter & geotrichum.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on January 30, 2013, 04:48:41 AM
Al,
perhaps you could copy the information I sent you here for the benefit of others as well. I don't see that I have access to it (maybe I just don't understand how the message setup works)
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 30, 2013, 05:08:27 AM
Great idea Alp!!  And thank you again!!

Quote
Al
I don't know much about Cognac, or liquor at all for that matter. But this I could say,

A lot of the non-wine washed alcohol washed cheeses (I hope that makes sense) seem to be either a washed curd type of cheese, use a Raclette base for example, or a lower cooked cheese, like Appenzeller. I can't say much for how true this is across the border into Germany or over in Austria.

What I would recommend is a Mutschli base. Mutschli is a simple cheese and easy to make and very forgiving. And it is not so strict that minor variations in the make disqualify it as Mutschli. You could say that Mutschli is more of a class of cheeses than a single variety. It is dispersed throughout the German speaking part of Switzerland in one form or another. I have a thread with a recipe somewhere around here.

Furthermore, Mutschli seems to me to be the basic pattern upon which many local varieties are based, and is perhaps the ancestor of many of the modern Alpine type cheeses, or a modern derivative of that ancestor. (I say this, because its recipe has a lot in common with the way we made goat cheeses, and the alpine cheese tradition began with goats a few thousand years ago)

But here is the Basic pattern for a mutschli, I have a more concise recipe listed elsewhere with the exact targets we used but you can vary freely from that all you wish. Just keep in mind how variations will change the final product. (Higher temperatures result in harder cheeses, longer cooking times result in higher acid and shorter times in sweeter paste)
Incubating temperature about 90 degrees. If using powdered culture, you probably want to let it incubate for 20 or 30 minutes first.
Add the Rennet at incubating temperature. It needs proper temp to work right. Keep the milk at this temp during the setting time. (the practice we use in a large vat is to heat 1 or 2 degrees warmer if the air is cold, but this probably wont work on a small vat)
Coagulate 30 minutes. When you do this, you should have a curd that is like a thick gel. I am convinced that most over-set their curds before beginning the slow cutting process.
Cut slowly according to the methods I have described elsewhere.
After the cutting period (timing of the cutting is important)stir the curd for 30 minutes, then heat up the curd slowly over a 20-40 minute period (exact time depending on the level of acidity you desire) to a temp of about 105-110 degrees. Remove from heat and continue to stir up to 5 minutes.
Let settle, and remove the curd as quickly as you can into the cloth-lined form and press at the ratio of 8 pounds of force to every pound of cheese. Flip at least 7 times during the proceeding day
schedule:
5 min, 10 min, 20 min, 40 min, 1 hour, 2 hour, 4 hour.
Leave in press overnight and place into brine. I have the specs for brine somewhere but don't feel like digging them up. But it should be very salty. I usually just start off with full salt brine when it is first made, and throw in a handful of salt with every cheese after that.
You can turn the cheese while in the brine, or it works just as well to spread a handful of salt over the top and leave it. The salt will draw water up onto the top of the cheese and it should brine evenly (it always does for us at least)
Then wash to your heart's desire.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: mgasparotto on January 30, 2013, 06:33:18 PM
Al-
I'm washing my epoisses style in cognac, and using the recipe from Mary Karlin's book. It's coming out really well so far. http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10889.0.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10889.0.html)
Melissa
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 30, 2013, 07:36:02 PM
Looks great Melissa!  Which B Linens did you use?  I plan on making Alps Mutschli and this will probably be the soft cheese I make.  Problem is I have to order B. Linens and am not sure which one is best for this application.  Here are my choices (http://www.getculture.com/search.php?mode=search&page=1)...
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: mgasparotto on January 30, 2013, 10:39:57 PM
I used PLA because I wanted the geo in there, as well. Good luck!
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on January 30, 2013, 10:54:22 PM
Why buy linens, if you are doing an alcohol wash? You will get wild ones as long as you keep the cheese hospitable to them.

Also, the Mutschli is not a 'soft' cheese like brie and such other 'pasty' cheeses. It is a solid cheese, amybe you would call it Semi-hard.
I am not always sure of the classifications, they are often arbitrary and besides, the classifications in the Swiss traditional are completely different.

For example, Emmentaler is classified as a hard cheese is America, yet the Swiss label it as 'Halb-hard' or half hard. And what they would call hard we would call extra hard. They would classify Mutschli as Halbhard, but it is not as hard as an Emmentaler. Maybe it should be closer to the hardness of a Jarlsberg (though not the texture, because Jarlsberg is washed curd)

Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 30, 2013, 10:58:32 PM
I knew that the Mutschli was a semi-hard cheese.  I wanted to do at least one solid one and one soft cheese so I'll be doing both.  Not sure I'm experienced enough to depend on wild linens showing up in my cheese cave. LOL  Figured I'd get some PLA and spray it. :o
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: JeffHamm on January 31, 2013, 01:30:36 AM
Hi Al,

Linens are everywhere naturally.  They're on your hands, etc, so if you get the cheese in the mood, they will show up.  But, it is comforting to supply them directly as you have a bit more control over their characteristics. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 31, 2013, 01:32:44 AM
Hell Jeff, I can't even get the wife in the mood.  I better buy extra!! LOL
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on January 31, 2013, 04:03:31 AM
Found this little gem while reading some about different practices of Mutschli,

„Je höher der Käsebruch gebrannt wird, desto mehr Flüssigkeit wird den Käsekörner entzogen, weil die sich mehr und mehr zusammenziehen. Das wirkt sich dann auf die Lagerung aus: Trockenere Käse können viel länger gelagert und ausgereift werden.“

That is to say,
The higher the curd is cooked, more liquid is expelled from the curd, because they [the curds] draw themselves more and more together. That works thus in the aging: Drier cheese can be aged much longer and become riper.

Before this it explained a good general rule for the Alpine cheeses:
40 degree C cooking temperature will yield a soft cheese
45 degree C cooking temperature will yield a 'halbhard' Alpkäse
50 Degree C cooking temp will yield a 'Hartkäse' or hard cheese.

all in all, this is the biggest variable among the procedures for the Swiss and many Austrian Alpine cheeses. The other variable is milk quality and wild flora used as culture.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is that by understanding this part of the process, we can tailor our Alpine style cheeses to our desires.

Want a hard cheese, cook it higher,
want a soft cheese, barely cook it at all.

Want to age a cheese for a long time? Cook it harder.
Want a cheese that's ready to eat in a month? Cook it less.

Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 31, 2013, 04:45:45 AM
Very enlightening!  I had planned on cooking the curd at the temperatures you state in your recipe.  I'm assuming you are using a thermo culture based on the temps stated.  I was looking for a semi-hard cheese to do with a relatively short aging time.  Perhaps 3-4 months.  I think your recipe fits the bill perfectly.  Especially the part where i can't screw it up. LOL  I really can't tell you how much I appreciate your time in helping me with this project.   A cheese to you for your relentless help for a newbee!!
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on January 31, 2013, 05:57:31 AM
If aging for more than 3 months, than you want to cook it a little more.
From the same document:
"Nach bereits zwei Wochen ist das Mutschli genussreif, allerdings noch sehr mild im Geschmack. Nach drei Monaten ist ein Mutschli dann endgültig ausgereift, von diesem Moment an wird es nur noch schärfer im Geschmack und irgendwann ungeniessbar."

After just 2 weeks the Mutschli is suitably ripe, though very mild in flavor. After 3 months is a Mutschli then completely ripened, from this moment on it only becomes sharper in flavor and sometimes inedible.

That is to say, 3 months is about as far as you want to go.
The sharpness described here is not the same thing we mean when we in America talk about sharpness of a cheese (in German, the word reif, meaning ripe, is generally used)  This is a bad quality. Remember that the Swiss like their cheeses in general far far stronger (Reifer, or sharper in American terminology) than Americans typically are accustomed to. If you don't believe me, eat an 18 month Emmentaler some time.

So if you want a 4 month cheese, you have to dry the mass out a little bit more, maybe cook up to the 110 to 115 F range.

Note one thing, with hard cooked cheeses, undesirable bacteria are most generally killed off. But the temperature ranges of this cheese are far too low for that. You will want to be sure and be very sanitary and have a good culture. And yes, the culture is thermo.

More specifically, you will want to use an Alpine type culture with Streptococcus Thermophilus and some form of Lactobacillus. (likey going to be either l. delbrueckii or l. helveticus)

Regarding the dynamics of the alpine cheeses there is one more thing that should be said.

The lower cooked cheeses ripen much faster than the harder cheeses, but the harder cheeses ripen better. The biggest reason for this is that the softer cheeses have a much more diversified bacteria population, whereas the harder cheeses have had their bacteria reduced by cooking to a small number of cultures.
Also, the higher moisture content is a little more hospitable to bacteria growth so they multiply slightly faster. Also, a moister cheese is more inviting to secondary population by bacteria post-make.

Part of the reason why a Mutschli becomes inedible once it is too old is because undesirable bacteria will produce much more pronounced false flavors past this point. This is much less of a concern if you start of with pasteurized milk. However, the principle still stands that a 4 month Mutschli is past its prime.

I should also note that the difference between the production an Emmentaler and an Alpkäse is 3 degrees (F) that is, Emmentaler may be cooked to about 122, while Alpkäse would be cooked to 124 or 125. This slight difference has a tremendous effect on the texture and hardness of the cheese (also, yes ps has an effect on texture as well) This is only here to point out how important it is to be precise with temperature and time on these cheeses. Slight errors can make a huge difference.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on January 31, 2013, 06:01:03 AM
One thing I could offer,
take very good notes on your make and post them up. Based on that I can tell how long the cheese should be aged.

In fact, I am thinking about making a little chart to show different aging times and their related temperature targets.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Boofer on January 31, 2013, 06:07:03 AM
Here are my choices ([url]http://www.getculture.com/search.php?mode=search&page=1[/url])...
Other vendors are less expensive...TheCheeseMaker (http://www.thecheesemaker.com/products/B%252dLinens%3A-PLA%2C-FR22%2C-SR3%2C-ARN%2C-LR.html), for instance.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 31, 2013, 03:14:19 PM
Here are my choices ([url]http://www.getculture.com/search.php?mode=search&page=1[/url])...
Other vendors are less expensive...TheCheeseMaker ([url]http://www.thecheesemaker.com/products/B%252dLinens%3A-PLA%2C-FR22%2C-SR3%2C-ARN%2C-LR.html[/url]), for instance.

-Boofer-


Couldn't find either of the molds I have on there.  Did place an order for PLA and Brie containers though.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on January 31, 2013, 04:11:37 PM
Just come home after a long hard day at work and rub your sweaty feet all over them  ;D :o
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 31, 2013, 05:24:32 PM
That's very strange Alp.   :o LOL
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on January 31, 2013, 07:02:22 PM
Salty and wet, sweaty feet are the perfect breeding ground for linens!
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 31, 2013, 07:35:49 PM
I'll just fo ahead and stick with the stuff I ordered. LOL  Not that I doubt your word, just saying. ???
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 01, 2013, 12:27:10 AM
Al I left off an important step to the Mutschli.

After the curd is cut and stirred, you need to brew the cheese for 30 minutes. All this is is slowly stirring the cheese for this time to give the culture time to develop and acidify.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 01, 2013, 12:37:33 AM
Thanks Alp!  I plugged it into the recipe. ^-^
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 01, 2013, 05:26:48 PM
Received this rrom Pav today.  Honestly, you guys are really amazing to take this much time to help out us new folks.  You're a wealth of knowledge and I, for one, really appreciate you.

Quote
you can do any cheese with whatever wash you want. question is what is the purpose of the cognac. there are three possible uses:
- 1. as aromatizer. you use the cognac as a perfume, washing or misting with it, and possibly also by enclosing the cheese in a bubble and letting the perfume soak in
- 2. As rind flora manager. To use the alcohol and adjust the rind balance through alcohol concentration if you want to target a specific proteolytic mix (as epoisses does)
- 3. as colorant/or other hybrid use. This is where you understand the function of alcohol as rind manager, and are trying to do more of a mix of 1 and 2. Chief difference between 2 and 3 is concentration and frequency/duration of application.

The MFFB of the cheese also matters. You can use alcohol with any cheese, but softer cheese absorbs more flavor and reacts fastest in the rind.

So take a cheese like langres... small cheese, washed with cognac and brine to impart color and a bit of flavor and as rind manager. epoisses is similar, but used more for the rind management, to shift flora balance and adjust the ripening speed. A harder cheese like mutschli is used more for color and flora balance because not a drastic amount of aroma or flavor carries through.

so it all depends what you're going for. Hope the above helps with your cheese design. there are many ways to approach it. if you pick a single cheese, I can help craft a regiment to reach your goals
.

Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 01, 2013, 10:30:19 PM
PAv is right in pointing out that in the Alpine family of cheeses, the biggest reason for the use of alcohol in its various form is rind control. However, the contribution it makes to the flavor and character of the cheese is not to be underestimated.

A cheese like Mutschli is often heavily flavored with secondary ingredients such as garlic, peppercorns, and other herbs and spices, or in other cases with alcohols. It is very receptive to flavor, but will not be overpowered by the cognac's flavor -it will still retain a great deal of its own character.

Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 04, 2013, 07:38:43 PM
Well I made a 6 pound Mutschli approximation saturday and brined it in 2 pounds of salt, one gallon of water, and a half bottle of Courvossier Cognac.  Tested my new Sturdy Press by pressing it overnight with 450 pounds.  No problem. It will be washed with half cognac/half water for the remainder of its aging.  Should be an interesting cheese. :o
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 04, 2013, 10:48:48 PM
Like I said, there is no such thing as a Mutschli approximation as the cheese itself is an extremely loose classification. So go ahead and call it Mutschli if you like. Or if not, call it something else -you can name this whatever you want (Ludwigerkäse, you could name it. German for Lewis Cheese)
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 04, 2013, 10:52:44 PM
Also, we neeed...

wait for it....

Pictures!



Might also want a little bit of salt in the wash. Helps to condition the rind to keep it from splitting when you dry it off next week or whenever you choose to stop washing it.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 05, 2013, 12:55:58 AM
Okay, here's the porn  pictures.  And no, I didn't drink the brine.  ::)  Here's what I did do…


I didn't have the other cultures recommended so what I opted for was to add 1/8 teaspoon PHN-19 with the 1/8 teaspoon TA-61 for the 4 gallon pot, half for the two gallon pot.  Don't know if it will have any effect as it is a meso culture but it was the best thing I could think of.  The cultures were added to the milk early and let to stand about an hour at 90F.  I put in 1 1/2 teaspoons of calcium chloride and then added 3/4 teaspoon of vegetable rennet, I made a 6 gallon cheese so 2/3s went into the 4 gallon pot.  After 30 minutes I cut the curd into large pieces and stirred for 30 minutes.  I then brought the temperature up to 113F over 30 minutes and stirred again, with a whisk, until the curd was about the size of a bean for 5 minutes.  Then I transferred the curd to the mold and went through the pressing schedule of 5 min, 10 min, 20 min, 40 min, 1 hour, do a shot, 2 hours, and 4 hours flipping, and re-dressing it each time.  This was at 50 pounds.  For my final pressing I varied from the schedule a bit.  I pressed overnight at 9 psi or 450 pounds in my new sturdy press.  I then took the cheese out of the mold and placed it in a brine of 2 pounds of salt to 1 gallon of water and 1/2 bottle of cognac.  I left it there for 15 hours.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 06, 2013, 07:32:56 PM
Have this sitting out to create a rind and the smell of the cognac is incredible.  No strong alcohol smell, just the sweet aroma of all of the fruit that went into making the cognac.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: mgasparotto on February 06, 2013, 11:04:18 PM
Isn't that amazing? I had the same experience with the epoisses. :)
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 06, 2013, 11:35:38 PM
Sure is Melissa!!  I'm loving this!! ;D
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 08, 2013, 05:54:54 AM
Well while the Mutschli gets its rind it's time for the next adventure, Epoisses.  I downloaded Mary Karlin's book "Artisan Cheese Making at Home" so I could get the recipe first hand.  Have to make a visit to the hospital tomorrow morning but I'll pick up some milk on the way home and do three of these.  Seems I have all of the ingredients, minus the milk, and it looks like an easy make.  Most difficult part it tending the cheeses after the make.  Looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: mgasparotto on February 08, 2013, 03:00:38 PM
Exciting! I'm really looking forward to seeing how yours turn out and comparing the way each of ours develops. Mine are ripening in boxes right now, and I expect to crack one open at the end of next week.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 08, 2013, 03:39:46 PM
That's great Melissa.  You should be able to give me a heads up on things as they are happening.  This will be my first try with these and I'm very eager to get it right.  I'll post the recipe I'll be using when I get home later. ;D
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 08, 2013, 08:13:41 PM
Okay, finally home and got all of the fixings ready for this Epoisses.  Should be interesting, if nothing else.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 08, 2013, 08:29:48 PM
I'll be doubling the recipe so here's the ingredients I'll be using and the recipe from Mary Karlin's "Artisan Cheese Making at Home"

2 gallons whole milk pasteurized
1/4 teaspoon Flora Danica (same as Meso II)
pinch of PLA
1/2 teaspoon Calcium chloride
4 drops liquid rennet diluted in 1/4 cup non-chlorinated cool water
salt
1 bottle Courvoisier Cognac

Warm milk to 86F
Sprinkle the Flora Danica and PLA over the top of the milk  and let sit to rehydrate for 5 minutes
Mix well using a whisk and a bottom to top motion
Maintain temperature and allow to ripen for 30 minutes
Add the Calcium Chloride and whisk for 1 minute
Add the rennet and whisk for 1 minute
Cover and allow to ripen for 4 hours at room temperature
Bring back to 86F and cut the curd into 3/4" pieces.
Let sit for 5 minutes
Gently ladle curd into molds lined with cloth
Let drain for 24 hours
Once they have shrunk to half their size flip every 2 hours
Remove from molds and cloth and rub with 1 teaspoon of salt each
Air dry at room temperature on a rack for 18 hours until the surface is dry to the touch
Ripen in cave at 56F and 85-90% RH flipping every 3 days for 6 weeks
When flipping wipe the entire surface with brine (1 teaspoon salt to 1/2 cup boiled water)
After first week alternate washes with brine and a 50/50 mixture of cognac and water
At 3 weeks switch to straight cognac washing every 3 days

Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 08, 2013, 09:20:29 PM
Just a quick update on the Mutshcli already in progress.  It has developed a nice firm outer shell, not really a rind, and is starting to take on the color of the cognac.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 08, 2013, 09:22:40 PM
Back to the Epoisses, here's a shot of the cultures rehydrating.  Try not to get too excited by all of this action.  ::)
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 08, 2013, 09:26:53 PM
I've now added the calcium chloride and rennet and, I'm afraid, I have to sit and drink some ice cold beverages while I wait for 4 hours.  Already got a free range chicken in the oven with a beer can shoved up it's butt and some Tony Chacheres's on it for dinner but that will cook from 2 to 5 so nothing to do for some time. ;D
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: H-K-J on February 08, 2013, 11:31:19 PM
It all looks great AL, Havin all kinds-O-fun :P
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 09, 2013, 12:04:37 AM
Yes I am my friend!! Chicken is smelling great about now and the curds are getting ready to spoon into the, now sanitized, molds!!  Life is good!  Oh, and it's Friday and the wood stove is lit and the drinks fridge is full and the bar stocked.  Forget anything? LOL  ;D  Did I mention I had the day off?? ;D
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 09, 2013, 01:15:29 AM
Okay, the curd has set and it's ready to ladle the curd into the molds.  I'm using three 5 1/4" open ended molds.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 09, 2013, 01:48:38 AM
Alright!!  All warm and tucked into their beds for the next 24 hours.  Good night little cheeses!! ;)
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 09, 2013, 05:30:58 AM
Can't comment on the epoi-whatever-you-call-its but the Mutschli is looking nice.

How is your washing schedule, and have you encountered any invading foreign armies?

You won't get a true 'rind' until much later, after the washing has really broken down the surface proteins in the cheese.

Here's what to expect with a good washed rind:

Stage 1: Slippery and wet
Stage 2: Gooey and scary
Stage 3: Slimy and terrifying
Stage 4: Gooey and scary (see, we're loosing our goo)
Stage 5: Soft and waxy
Stage 6: Tough wax
Stage 7: Hard
Stage 8: Harder
Stage 9: Still harder
Stage 10: Really hard
Stage 11: Archaeological curiosity
Stage 12: Diamonds (this is when the cheese really goes up in value)

Ok so I got carried away there...

The bottom line is that the cheese can get slimy and weird, but as the rind dries off it first goes through a waxy stage that will have white marks on it if it rubs on something, then it gets tough and hard.

Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 09, 2013, 04:43:20 PM
Thanks Alp!!  So far nothing has gone anywhere near it.  I figured the alcohol warded them off.  The surface is a bit damp but not really slippery or gooey.  Seems to absorb whatever wash doesn't  evaporate.  I've been flipping it every 12 hours and have washed it every 24.  Added the salt to the wash, as you suggested, and will probably switch to every three days.  The aroma is incredible.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 09, 2013, 05:16:24 PM
Here are the Epoisses this morning.  Definitely deflated of their whey.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 09, 2013, 09:28:42 PM
Well the little darlings are undressed and drying nicely.  Won't be long before they start getting their daily diet of cognac. :P
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 14, 2013, 12:39:45 AM
Well Alp, the Mutschli is coming along great!  How long should I age it?
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 14, 2013, 12:41:17 AM
Here are the other three little prizes.  Those B Linens seem to be sneaking in.  Few more weeks for these.  The boxes are ready and waiting. ;)
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Tiarella on February 14, 2013, 01:35:33 AM
Nice looking cheeses, Al.  can anything be done about the B linens?  Will it provide a bunch of flavor you'd rather avoid?  I want to see the video of you trying to finesse these babies into boxes.   :D
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 14, 2013, 02:03:17 AM
The B Linens are wanted.  I paid extra for them!!! LOL  I also bought the right size boxes to slip these puppies right into. O0
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 14, 2013, 02:15:19 AM
The Mutschli looks good. This you can age anywhere from 3 weeks up to 4 or 5 months with the way you went about making it. So any time past a month you can open it, though I like the guideline of at least 60 days.

We for commercial purposes are required to age all of our raw milk cheese a minimum of 60 days, and I think this is a good practice.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 14, 2013, 03:14:39 AM
This was made from PH milk but I think 60 days would be good.  We'll see how the rind/wash goes.  I have high hopes for this cheese.  Can't thank you enough for your help and continued support. If you would message me your mailing address I'll happily send you a pound when it's done so you can sample your advice first hand. A cheese for you for all of your help my friend. ;D
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: mgasparotto on February 14, 2013, 09:08:54 PM
Those are some beauties, Al!
Melissa
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 14, 2013, 09:29:16 PM
Thank you Melissa.  I think I may have to put them into their boxes soon.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 17, 2013, 05:41:48 PM
Just a weekend update for my cognac washed cheeses.  The B. Linens seem to be doing their job on the Epoisses.  Still waiting for signs of softening though as they are still young.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 17, 2013, 05:44:29 PM
My Mutschli is looking awesome.  I'm getting some cracking even with the washing.  The surface actually emulsifies a bit with the cognac wash. 
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: JeffHamm on February 17, 2013, 07:19:39 PM
Hi Al,

I've had some washed rind cheeses crack during the washing as well.  For me, the cheeses were really moist inside as I probably under cooked the curds.  However, with mine the cheese also slumped, which you would expect with such a soft inner paste.  Your's looks like it has much more structural integrity.  I know some people will rub salted butter into the cracks to keep the moulds out of the paste.  I've not tried that myself, so I'm just passing on what others have said works for them (just in case you're thinking of doing anything about the cracks). :)

- Jeff
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 17, 2013, 07:36:09 PM
Thanks Jeff! I have found that when brushing on the cognac wash, yes I use a small paint brush, it creates a bit of an emulsified paste that I can brush into the cracks.  This seems to seal them pretty well.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 21, 2013, 01:07:18 AM
Here's a shot of the Mutschli tonight after its cognac brushing.  Looking good to me and smells great!  Really looking forward to cutting into this one.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 22, 2013, 12:52:26 AM
That cheese looks good enough to sell!

Ei Chäs für di... (a cheese for you)
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 22, 2013, 12:55:36 AM
Also see that slime in the picture? This is a very good picture to show what I am talking about when I talk about the 'Schmier' when washing a cheese. This gooey slimy gunk that develops as a result of the water, alcohol, and b. linens. This eventually gets absorbed into the cheese to form the rind.

I would say from the looks of things, you can expect to get a somewhat waxy rind texture, if you would age it out long it would get hard.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 22, 2013, 03:33:42 AM
Thanks a million Alp.  It smells awesome.  The surface seems to emulsify a bit when brushed with the cognac.  I'm very happy with it and am anxious to cut it.  Waiting for that 60 day mark though.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: H-K-J on February 22, 2013, 02:51:38 PM
It looks MMMMmmmmGoooood!
Look's like it's gonna be great AL ^-^
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Tom Turophile on February 22, 2013, 04:19:16 PM
Received this rrom Pav today.  Honestly, you guys are really amazing to take this much time to help out us new folks.  You're a wealth of knowledge and I, for one, really appreciate you.

Quote
you can do any cheese with whatever wash you want. question is what is the purpose of the cognac. there are three possible uses:
- 1. as aromatizer. you use the cognac as a perfume, washing or misting with it, and possibly also by enclosing the cheese in a bubble and letting the perfume soak in
- 2. As rind flora manager. To use the alcohol and adjust the rind balance through alcohol concentration if you want to target a specific proteolytic mix (as epoisses does)
- 3. as colorant/or other hybrid use. This is where you understand the function of alcohol as rind manager, and are trying to do more of a mix of 1 and 2. Chief difference between 2 and 3 is concentration and frequency/duration of application.

The MFFB of the cheese also matters. You can use alcohol with any cheese, but softer cheese absorbs more flavor and reacts fastest in the rind.

So take a cheese like langres... small cheese, washed with cognac and brine to impart color and a bit of flavor and as rind manager. epoisses is similar, but used more for the rind management, to shift flora balance and adjust the ripening speed. A harder cheese like mutschli is used more for color and flora balance because not a drastic amount of aroma or flavor carries through.

so it all depends what you're going for. Hope the above helps with your cheese design. there are many ways to approach it. if you pick a single cheese, I can help craft a regiment to reach your goals
.

Thanks for this; I was actually just thinking the same thing before I went back through this thread and found it.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 23, 2013, 01:00:36 AM
Epoisses looking good!!
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on March 16, 2013, 04:03:42 PM
Well this is my third weekend recovering from the dreaded lurgee and I am feeling much better.  Just had to post this updated photo of the Mutschli that Alp was kind enough to help me with.  Just had to let him know it was still going great and looking good!!  Also, the Epoisses are starting to soften.  Should these be wrapped before boxing them?  Too late!  LOL  I wrapped and boxed them this morning.  Very sticky on the exterior and softening quickly.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on March 17, 2013, 08:21:14 PM
Looking good

How old is this cheese now?
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on March 18, 2013, 09:00:16 AM
Thanks!  Coming up on 7 weeks.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on March 25, 2013, 06:36:06 PM
Tried one of my Epoisses yesterday.  Absolutely delicious!!!! :P
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: JeffHamm on March 25, 2013, 07:23:22 PM
Great!  Where's the photo of the interior?  Here, I'll even give you a cheese in advance.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on March 25, 2013, 09:06:45 PM
Have to take that on the next one Jeff.  First one didn't last long enough to pose! LOL ;D
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on March 26, 2013, 11:56:54 PM
Okay Alp, this one's getting cut this weekend.  It looks great to me and smells incredible.  Can't wait to taste it.  My 6 pound Mutschli washed in cognac. :P
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: H-K-J on March 27, 2013, 02:51:11 AM
WOW!!!
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: JeffHamm on March 27, 2013, 06:46:22 AM
Wow is right!  That's a fantastic looking wheel.  Are you sure it's ready to cut though?  It's barely 2 months old.  I would think you would want to stop the washing, and take this out to 6 months at least.  It will definately be worth the wait.  Make caerphilly, lancashire, and butterkase in the meantime.  You could make and eat all three over the next 4 months, then eat this one.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on March 27, 2013, 02:10:12 PM
Well Jeff Alp says it needs to be cut at 60 days.  As he gave me the recipe I am going to follow his instructions to the tee.  However, There's nothing that says I can't vacuum pack 3/4 of it and try the other 1/4.  ;D
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Boofer on March 27, 2013, 02:22:42 PM
I think I'd agree with Jeff to wait a bit more. That's a pretty big cheese at 6 pounds. I would think the paste would benefit from longer affinage to allow the biological and chemical changes to occur throughout the bulk of that cheese.

Was Alp referencing a smaller form factor cheese, perhaps? Maybe something half that size?

Just saying....

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on March 27, 2013, 03:31:07 PM
id have to look through the make and see for sure
but a Mutschli cannot age for very long without developping bad flavors
i am sure this is much less the case when using past. milk
typically, these would only be aged 2 to 3 months, and arent aged more than 4 to 6 depending on cooking temp (every Mutschli is different
these are good cheeses to age out quickly, good if you want something easy that you can enjoy soon, and good intros to the alpine style as they are hard to mess up and quick to test. assuming your culture was good, they develop quickly due to the high moisture, but will spoil if aged to long due to the same
id personally let it set out a few days to dry, and then eat it
if you want to make a cheese to age for longer, amake a drier version of the same principal.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: JeffHamm on March 27, 2013, 06:13:18 PM
I stand corrected then.  I look forward to hearing the tasting notes.  Another quick to table cheese (2 months is quick for cheese after all) is always worth having on the books.

Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on March 27, 2013, 07:31:07 PM
yes thats the point of it. compared to the aged alpine cheeses it is made next to, which might age for years, it is good to have a quick to table cheese as well
some say the Mutschli is an application of goats milk cheese methods to cows milk, speculating that all alpine cheese types were first made with goats milk. the harder cheeses, then, may have been further developped from the Mutschli
its a nice theory, just dont know if it is true.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on March 27, 2013, 09:10:24 PM
I look forward to hearing the tasting notes.  Another quick to table cheese (2 months is quick for cheese after all) is always worth having on the books.

And I look forward to writing them!!! ;D
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on March 30, 2013, 08:32:22 PM
Well the day has finally come and well worth waiting for.  I would have to describe this as a semi-soft, creamy, and mild cheese.  Very pleasant to eat.  Didn't take on much of the cognac but that may be due to it's size.  Definitely well worth making!!  This would make an awesome cheese for panini's or even a great cheese in a Mac & Cheese.  Can't thank you enough Alp.  If you message me your address I'll send you some to sample.  ;D
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: H-K-J on March 30, 2013, 09:48:50 PM
Al
beautiful cheese, Looks like it would be great snackin cheese to,
a cheese to you  ;D
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on March 30, 2013, 10:48:49 PM
H-K-J, it really is an awesome cheese.  A cheese to Alp for his help and his recipe!!  Well, here's the Epoisse that Jeff wanted to see the paste in.  Jeff I really like this cheese.  It cost a ton to make but it really is delicious.  I will be making it again!!! :D  The outside rind simply peels away to reveal a very tasty inside paste.  I ate both! LOL   ;D
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Boofer on March 31, 2013, 01:13:26 AM
Good job, Al. Have a cheese for breaking into this style. :)

What are those darker areas inside the paste?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: JeffHamm on March 31, 2013, 05:03:37 AM
Two excellent results Al.  I would give you a cheese for both, but I'm only allowed to give per hour, so one cheese to you for now.  Thanks for those photos.

- Jeff

P.S.  Was able to give my 2nd cheese as well.  The night is good!
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on March 31, 2013, 06:12:46 AM
Thanks guys.  Both have been an adventure and both seem to be a success. Boofer I had to warm the Epoisse slightly to release it from the paper it was on.  The rind melted slightly.  Apparently it's very heat sensitive as I didn't really warm it that much, ten seconds in the microwave.  Tried some of the Mutschli in a panini tonight and it was great.  It didn't melt as fast as I thought it would which is good as I may have a go at smoking some in the future in my new smoker. ;)                                                     
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Boofer on March 31, 2013, 01:02:21 PM
No, Al, I was referencing the Mutschli.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on March 31, 2013, 03:22:06 PM
No idea, I assume they were tiny air pockets that dried.  There was a slight amount of gas release on one side that created a few small pockets under the rind towards the end of the aging.  Even had a small spot of blue transfer from my Stilton but nothing I can't live with.  Still looking at a way to segregate/isolate these larger cheeses in my small cave.  Have to take some measurements and make a trip to Cash & Carry's container section.
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on March 31, 2013, 05:25:07 PM
Set out some cheeses for Easter dinner.  Having about 20 guests.  Put out a wedge of the Mutschli, an Epoisse, some Double Gloucester, and a White English Cheddar I made 6 months ago that tastes awesome. 
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Alpkäserei on March 31, 2013, 06:01:41 PM
Looks great! Glad it worked good for you
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: Al Lewis on March 31, 2013, 09:13:57 PM
Thank you Alp.  I had a little blue intrusion but nothing that didn't make it more interesting.  All in all a delicious cheese.  I can't thank you enough.  The next one will be smoked.  Seems a perfect cheese for that. ;)
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: cheesytokyo on July 20, 2015, 04:36:42 AM

Quote

Cut slowly according to the methods I have described elsewhere.
After the cutting period (timing of the cutting is important)stir the curd for 30 minutes

I have been seriously scouring the forum for this cutting and timing information, and I think I actually read that thread a couple days ago, but unfortunately, I can't seem to find it...

Can anyone kindly point me in the right direction?
Also, is there a way to search a member's posts? i.e. go to their profile, click on their posts, and then search for specific info (besides manually doing so - I manually searched Alp's posts for this info, but could not manage to filter it out)

Thanks much~
Title: Re: Cognac Washed Rind Cheese?
Post by: cheesytokyo on July 20, 2015, 05:16:00 AM
Found it!

For anyone else who comes along:
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10373.msg77537.html#msg77537 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10373.msg77537.html#msg77537)