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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Other => Topic started by: 9mmruger on August 02, 2010, 03:11:52 PM
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Good morning fellow cheese makers.
I have a couple of questions, and not real sure where to post them, so I will put them here and hopefully gain insight from the wealth of knowledge that you all possess.
I made two 3 gallon batches of cheese this weekend, and measured starting ph of the milk which was 6.67 on both days. The first day, I warmed the milk to 86 per the instructions for the particular cheese that I was making and added the starter, ¼ tsp of flora danica and 1/8 tsp of mm meso type M (aquired from Leener’s). I allowed the milk to ripen for 60 minutes as recipe recommended and then tested the ph again. There was no change, which I was not expecting. I added ¾ tsp of CaCl2 and mixed thoroughly. I added the rennet, I used dry calves rennet, about 3/32nds of a teaspoon, which is a 32nd more than the package instructions, re-hydrated in ¼ cup of cool distilled water. It took just about 3 hours to set to a firm curd. Very, very distressing to take that long for a curd set. Throws the whole recipe timing off schedule. I measured the ph at curd set and it was about 6.53, which I thought was insufficient acidification for the amount of time that had elapsed.
Now to my questions:
Does acidification effect curd set or do I have another problem.
Do you think that possibly my starters are bad? They have been kept frozen in their containers, in a zip lock bag.
When I drained the curd after cooking I had a ph of about 6.28 and at final pressing I was at around 5.75 ph in the whey.
What do you think I am experiencing?
By the way, the cheese is the Crosta Rossta Pistachi recipe that is listed in a thread at this site.
Now for my other question regarding PH values. Is there a general guideline that a person should look to for his cheese making, i.e. value of ph at ripening time, rennet time, draining time, pressing time, etc.?
I ask so that I can get a feel for if it is going correctly. Thanks all.
Buy the way, here is a pix of the Pistachi.
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Watching this thread with interest.
Is it just me or does Flora danica seem to be lazy?
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First - Flora Danica contains gas producing bacteria. Not a good choice for most hard cheeses. It is also not an aggressive acid producing combination. You seem to really like FD. ;)
Every cheese is different in its pH requirements. It's mostly a matter of style and personal preference not just absolute values. Your starting pH was perfect and 6.53 at curd set is not at all off base. The outcome of your cheese depends on what you do after that. However, that does clearly show that the bacteria were active.
More importantly, your rennet dose is WAY off base as evidenced by your set time. You should search the forum and read up on flocculation. I use around 1 tsp of animal rennet for 5 gallon batches. So you should be around 3/5 not 3/32 tsp. That is about 6.5 times what you used. Flocculation will tell you exactly how you are doing. When a curd takes that long to set, it takes MONTHS for the cheese to mature, so don't be in a hurry to cut that one.
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Thanks Sailor, that helps. The dry calves rennet that I used indicated that it takes 1/16th tsp for 1 to 4 gallons of milk. This was printed on the package, so I used a tad more than that. I think you are right in that the directions are probably wrong. I will use 1/8 on the next batch and see what happens.
kim
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I use liquid rennet. I'm sure that the dry needs to be reconstituted before use. It could also be old. Flocculation hels solve these issues. 1/16th tsp for 1 to 4 gallons is really misleading. Rennet use is proportional to the volume of milk that you use. So I can see 1/16 for a gallon and 4/16 (1/4) for 4 gallons. You were really far off on your set time so that's where I would start (1/4 tsp.) and see what happens.
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Thanks again, I do dissolve it in 1/4 cup of distilled water about 20 minutes prior to use. I will take your advise a increase my level. I must admit that I have not tried the floc method yet, as I have not been able to get a consistent curd formation yet. On Sunday's cheese venture, I used vegetable rennet which calls for 5 drops per quart of milk. I used 60 drops for my 3 gallons and had a good curd at 47 minutes. I did nothing different other than the culture that I used.
You mentioned that I liked to use Flora Danica, but really these two cheeses were the 1st time that I have ever used it. I used it because of the recipe posted in the "Drunk & nutty" cheese thread. I have always used Leener's Meso A or MM previously.
I do keep them frozen all the time, so they should still be good. Do you rehydrate them in a cup of milk before adding to your main milk container. I tried this hoping that I would get them going prior to putting them into my 3 gallons. I did not see significant improvement.
Thanks for taking the time with me. I appreciate it. I want to learn.
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Which dry calf rennet? Chr hansen's? Because that has an exact dosage rate, and not a wild range like "per 1-4 gal". Rennet has to be exact in terms of clotting units per liter of milk, and there's a certain number of clotting units per gram in dry rennet.
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Which dry calf rennet? Chr hansen's? Because that has an exact dosage rate, and not a wild range like "per 1-4 gal". Rennet has to be exact in terms of clotting units per liter of milk, and there's a certain number of clotting units per gram in dry rennet.
Thanks Linuxboy for the reply. I am attaching the spec's for you. Hopefully you can help me figure this out.
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Oh, renco's that Steve sells. IMHO, by the time this makes it over the ocean, it loses some activity. I would start with 1/16 tsp per gallon. Hmm, Sailor and I agree on that point it seems.
Also don't dissolve 20 mins beforehand. There's no need to let it sit that long.
Any way to measure out exact micrograms? Jewelry scale?
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Unfortunately no scale. Do I get the feeling that you do not think that this rennet is as good as some other may be? I guess that after I use this up I will probably go back to the liquid. Cheers, and thanks for the replies.
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For the record, I use veal rennet from Dairy Connection (http://dairyconnection.com/commerce/catalog.jsp?catId=2).
The Dosage rate there is 90ml/1000lbs of milk, with a 1:40 dillution rate.
I developed this cheatsheet to help me calculate the proper amounts of rennet to use for my batches. It has not failed me yet. I always get a good, timely set.
(this gives me plenty of time to screw up other aspects of my cheese!)
So, for your 3 gallon batches, you would need 2.32ml of rennet dilluted in 92.88ml of water.
Hope this helps.
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Love the chart!!
What do you use to measure your rennet? Up to this point I have been using teaspoon type measures.
But would like to be more precise.
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Great chart, Wayne. Wanted to point out the valid range is 7-10 ml/100 lb for single strength. Some cheeses take less rennet. Also styles of the same cheese differ among countries. Like for cheddar, the range is 6-11. Some of it depends on milk, too. Milk with more solids needs less rennet. Higher fat milk sometimes uses more. 9 ml/100 lbs is a great all around amount, though.
I use a pipette or syringe to measure when making small batches and a graduated cylinder for large batches.
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Like Linuxboy, i use pipettes and graduated cylinders, and volumetric flasks to get accurate measurements.
BTW, I got my 9ml/100lb (90ml/1000lbs) from the generic recommendations from the Rennet bottle.
Linuxboy has better recommendations. If you change that cell in my spreadsheet to a different number, all the values in the chart should automatically update.
BTW: Here is a picture of my little lab.
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Well you all are certainly more advanced than I am. I use dash, pinch, and smidgen, measuring spoons LOL. I'll get there eventually. Great chart!
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I buy bulk rennet from a local diary. They sell it at 1.5 USD an ounce and bring it out in little plastic container. I draw the rennet into a 35 ml syringe because it's so much safer to store it in the fridge, than a little flimsy cup which I tipped a few times and it leaked. It's also very convenient to dose the rennet having a calibrated syringe and no measuring spoons to clean and sanitize either.
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I would keep it refridgerated and sealed. I might suggest getting a vial or something dedicated to storing what you get. 1.5oz is about 44 ml, so a 100ml vial would work well.
(http://a763.g.akamai.net/7/763/1644/3/app.infopia.com/img/image/fp/VPID/6815080/size/250)
Here is one.... (http://www.onlinesciencemall.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/6815080/vpcsid/0/SFV/30852)
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I haven't found a way to measure the volume of liquid rennet precisely. I have been weighing it with a 1/100 gram scale. Is that valid?
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I would keep it refridgerated and sealed. I might suggest getting a vial or something dedicated to storing what you get. 1.5oz is about 44 ml, so a 100ml vial would work well.
([url]http://a763.g.akamai.net/7/763/1644/3/app.infopia.com/img/image/fp/VPID/6815080/size/250[/url])
Here is one.... ([url]http://www.onlinesciencemall.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/6815080/vpcsid/0/SFV/30852[/url])
But isn't it sealed in a syringe?
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mostly, I guess.
But In my head, I had this image of a dripping syringe.
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Interesting choice of cultures. I think this will be a different cheese altogether keep us posted. I need to find the orginal post I believe I make this with Meso aromatic (type B).
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I chose the Florica Danica because that was what was referenced in the Drunk and Nutty thread for this cheese. I hope it won't be too different. Should you find the original recipe I sure would like to have it.
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Meso aromatic type B and Flora Danica have the same bacteria types. Ratios of each might be different, not sure on that. Based on culture choice alone, it should be a similar cheese.
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They are close enough not to be a problem.
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As pointed out, both cultures include: Lc. lactis, Lc. cremoris, Lc. lactis biovar diacetylactis, and Leuc. m. cremoris, but in different (unknown) proportions. However Flora Danica also contains maltodextrin - an artificial sweetener with thickening properties.
Maltodextrin is a polysaccharide, which qualifies it as an alternative sweetener to sucrose or fructose. Maltodextrin can be enzymatically derived from any starch. In the US, this starch is usually corn or potatoes; in Europe, it is commonly wheat. It is often used in combination with other additives to form a sweet coating for fried snack foods such as corn chips and potato chips. Although rarely marketed by itself, maltodextrin can often be found as an ingredient in a number of other artificial sweetener blends such as Splenda.
So unless you want artificial sugar in your Gouda, Flora Danica is a very poor choice for hard cheeses. It is much more appropriate (but not necessary) for French cream cheese, Mascarpone, etc. If using FD as an alternative culture, it is important to understand that a part of the bulk is the maltodextrin, so you will have to use more to get an equivalent dose of the starter bacteria.
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Sailor, so that I understand, does the maltodextrin replicate itself like the Flora Danica culture then, or will the 1/4 tsp that I used in the recipe remain the 1/4 tsp? All this is very confusing.
Thanks for your insights.
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The maltodextrin (MD) does not replicate. The exact proportions are unknown, but for discussion sake assume that 50% of the Flora Danica (FD) is composed of the starter bacteria and 50% is the MD. That means that if you use 1/4 tsp of FD then you are really only using 1/8 tsp of starter bacteria and 1/8 tsp of MD.
In a lactic coagulated cheese like Mascarpone or cream cheese, that's not a big deal. The bacteria will just continue to replicate overnight until you get the desired "set". In a hard cheese, that's a completely different story. Now you want a starter mix that is going to produce lactic acid more quickly so you can reach the desired pH targets along the way. If the starter is too weak, the finished cheese will never reach it's potential.
So how much more FD to add to compensate for the bulk MD? Best way to figure that out is to use a pH meter and see what's going on throughout a make. But... as I said, FD is not a good choice for hard cheeses. ;)
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Thanks Sailor, I think I am understanding. When I was looking for my PH marks I felt that they were not responding properly according to the times that I allowed to set. It seemed that if I wanted to drain at 6.1 I would have had to wait another hour or so. Typically at drain I am finding that I am at 6.25 to 6.35 depending on the batch. This would indicate that I need to use more culture in the beginning, yes?
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Sailor, it's a little bit more complex than that. Maltodextrins are added as lyoprotectants. Meaning when cells are freeze dried, there is a great chance that they will be damaged because first the slurry is frozen and then water is removed during lyophilization. What happens is that the outer cell wall is composed of proteins, and when they are stressed like that, they can aggregate together or unfold, causing cell death and decreasing viability. To aid in the percentage of viable cells when reconstituting, one practice that is used is employing lyoprotectants such as maltodextrins.
Maltodextrins are starches that have been partially hydrolyzed. What happens chemically is that they can then form hydrogen bonds with proteins. When that bonding happens it dramatically stabilizes the cell wall and prevents it from being damaged during lyophilization.
Typically, it's not 50%. It's more like 4-15% by weight. That's about all you need to have a good outcome. It depends on the cell concentration. Higher cell density needs more lyoprotectant.
IMHO, maltodextrin plays a very negligible role in final cheese texture. Acid development and milk quality and culture selection play a larger part.
Also, I remember reading something on Ricki's site about the role of maltodextrins and how they're preferentially consumed by bacteria upon rehydration and how bacteria need the maltodextrins after "waking up". This is not true, it takes more work for the cell to consume them; lactic bacteria have a preference for lactose. They use their inner cell reserves in the first 5-10 minutes upon rehydrating and coming out of a dormant phase. That's one of the reasons there's a lag phase in bacterial reproduction.
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I was trying to keep it simple. ;)
I have not seen MD listed as an ingredient with Aromatic B. Just from experience, FD seems to be a much slower acidifier than Aromatic B, even though they have the same bacteria mix. Just seems to take longer to start getting a pH drop. That's why from a practical standpoint, I have considered FD to be for slow overnight coagulation. Perhaps the hydrogen bond with the MD proteins makes it take longer to "wake up" the Flora Danica because of a difference in the bacteria ratios. In other words, maybe FD has a higher proportion of Leuc. m. cremoris that results in a stronger bond to that particular protein. This could be a distinction between dominant rods vs cocci or it could be observed in a gram stain reaction. All of these are gram positive, but a stronger gram stain indicates that the cell wall is more permeable and maybe more receptive to the hydrogen bond with MD. Probably why they use it in the first place - to protect the fragile cell wall.
BTW - I'm sure you have noticed the very old taxonomy that Ricki is still using on her website. Not good when trying to educate cheesemakers. :P
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LOL. I was trying (and failing) to keep it simple, too. Not sure on the FD strains either. Might be that meso B has higher ratio of acidifying bacteria or maybe they have a different pH curve and drop faster. But I agree, for classic FD, it's really best for fresh cheese. Makes for a great chevre or similar lactic curd. I know in chr hansen's line, for example, their continental culture is lactis, cremoris, diacetylactis and leuconostoc, just like FD, but acid curve is way different and gas formation way different.
Yeah, I have mixed thoughts about Ricki. I think we both understand business necessities, and she's been around for so long and has helped so many people... it's amazing, really. But it's like the science has gone light years since the 1970s, and the exact help an industry person should provide should be useful and correct and complete. Heck even the last 10 years have made concepts in DVI technologies more refined, to the point where viability of reconstituted bacteria is nearly double what it used to be 10-15 years ago. Maybe that's why she has Jim on staff, and why he charges consulting fees. Nothing is free I suppose. Unless you're on cheeseforum :).
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Believe me, I appreciate you both, all. I do appreciate keeping it simple as well. I will keep the use of the FD to the softer cheeses from here on in. Thanks for the enlightenment. Lots to learn.