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GENERAL BOARDS => USA => Geographic Type Posts => Washington => Topic started by: Luckyksc on June 08, 2011, 03:25:56 PM
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So I finally found a place in Tacoma that sells raw milk ($10 gallon) and a place that sells pasteurized non homogenized milk ($16 gallon). The raw milk is cheaper but I have to age the cheese longer, the other milk cost more but I would be able to continue to make cheese and eat it within a month or two. I am very much a beginner and like being able to see my mistakes quickly. I make a cheese a week right now. I know that non homogenized milk is supposed to makes better cheese, does raw milk make better cheese then pasteurized milk? Which one should I go for? Right now I just make cheese out of the cheap milk at the store ($2.50 gallon).
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The raw milk is cheaper but I have to age the cheese longer
How do you figure? Because you're unsure it's free of pathogens? Can't sell raw milk in WA unless it's tested. One of the best joys of making cheese for oneself is that you can enjoy extraordinary delicacies, like 3-4 week old raw milk bloomy rind and smear rind types. One of my favorites, for example, is to skim all the fat from my goat milk in the spring, and make a double creme bloomy rind that I eat in 4 weeks and infuse with petals from cherry blossoms. Thin, mixed-species yeast/geo/linens rind, or PLA if I'm lazy.
does raw milk make better cheese then pasteurized milk?
When it's high quality milk, yes.
Right now I just make cheese out of the cheap milk at the store ($2.50 gallon).
Which milk? Pooled Dairygold? Rebranded sunshine dairy shipped up here from Portland? One of the smaller producers? Because IMHO, the only passable cheeses you can make from store milk around here are blues, gouda types, and very low moisture types such as parmesan.
Do raw, it's how cheese was meant to be. And if you're paranoid about bacteria, then thermize it.
I am very much a beginner and like being able to see my mistakes quickly.
Having trouble following how you can tell when you made a mistake when the only way to tell most of the time is to age a cheese out. A cheese at 2 weeks is not the same cheese at 4 weeks is not the same cheese at 4 months, etc.
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Thanks for the answer! :) I did not know that all milk here had to be tested. I won't worry about it then. The raw milk is from Marline's Market, I don't know how high quality is is. The only cheese I make right now is a Gouda like cheese and a simple cheese from the basic cheese recipe posted on the Fankhauser website. I don't want anything I have to age more then 6 months because I bought veg rennet not knowing my cheese would turn bitter if I let it age too long and I am just impatient. As for mistakes, I seem to know pretty quickly when I have done something wrong (cheese leaking, cheese really, really dry, cheese that looks more like cream cheese, and so on) if I open it up within a month or so. Now I just have to convince my husband that it is worth it to buy $10 milk for my "weird hobby" as he calls it.
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I bought veg rennet not knowing my cheese would turn bitter if I let it age too long
This is not necessarily true. It's not a foregone conclusion. It's just more likely than not. Plenty of good cheese is made with mucor rennet.
Marline's carries Laurie's milk (Cozy Valley in Tenino) or Pride and Joy. Both are excellent, excellent milks. Haven't been there for a while, so they might have something else. If you can afford it, use that. Or if you can, go down to Tenino and get milk directly from Laurie. She sells it for $6-$8/gal IIRC.
Welcome to the forum! :)
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That is so good to know that they sell great milk before I go and spend my money on it. How handy to have a local on this board. ^-^ I have already learned so much just from reading posts.
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Right now I just make cheese out of the cheap milk at the store ($2.50 gallon).
Hi & Wecome,
Im really interested how your cheese tastes when using this milk - what other cheese is it comparable to?
Thanks
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I have found that as long as I use calcium, I have no problem making cheese out of store milk. The two that I have aged for one month have been very good. They were like a cross between a sharper cheddar and a Gouda I guess. I am not very good at remembering the name of cheeses I have tasted so I can't compare very well. I just keep using Fankhauser's basic cheese recipe and tweaking it to make a softer cheese or dryer or whatever I feel like making at the moment. Today I used store milk to make Queso Blanco with garlic and herbs. It was crumbly and tasty on my home made sourdough.
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Marline's carries Laurie's milk (Cozy Valley in Tenino) or Pride and Joy. Both are excellent, excellent milks. Haven't been there for a while, so they might have something else. If you can afford it, use that. Or if you can, go down to Tenino and get milk directly from Laurie. She sells it for $6-$8/gal IIRC.
Marlene's up on 38th Street. That's where I go to get my Dungeness Valley raw Jersey milk @ $9.99 per gallon. They do have Cozy Valley and each gallon jug has the name of the cow that the milk came from. I've been learning cheese making by using 1 gallon of the raw Dungeness Valley milk to 3 gallons P/H milk. That makes it a little more affordable.
-Boofer-
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I've been learning cheese making by using 1 gallon of the raw Dungeness Valley milk to 3 gallons P/H milk. That makes it a little more affordable.
-Boofer-
Boofer,
I'm glad to hear you are having success with this method, as I'm about to try it myself. Are you getting the same character as all raw milk? Or almost? I'm hoping that the native flora in my local Jersey milk will spread to my inexpensive but decent P/H milk. Do you mix them and let them sit at all, or do you just add them all together when you're ready to make cheese?
Dave in CT
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Dave, I originally got the blend suggestion from linuxboy sometime back. I don't have any personal history using all raw versus the blend, but I would imagine there would be a very significant difference.
I have done the 1-to-3 blend in about six cheeses so far. Some are still quite young...they are Beauforts, Tommes, and Goutalers, so the jury is still out. As I said, raw milk @ $10/gallon versus P/H milk @ $3.65/gallon figures quite prominently in my cheese making budget.
After my post last night I pondered going down and paying for four gallons of Dungeness Valley or Cozy Valley raw milk. It would probably shock my wife. It would shock me! I may be at the point where a $50 (4lb) wheel of cheese is not so beyond the pale. I would certainly want to be successful at all points in the make.
I really envy the folks here who have access to good quality, low-cost (or no-cost) raw milk. I'm thinking that's what I need to get my 87-year-old dad for Father's Day...a sweet-faced Jersey cow for his back yard. ;) Got to keep that coyote away though. >:(
-Boofer-
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Boofer - What brand of P/H milk are you using? My $2.50 milk is the Mount. Dairy that I get at Freds. I have noticed that the cheaper brands tend to come from a few states closer. I have thought about getting the Smith Bros delivered because they claim that their milk is super fresh but it is still P/H. My husband and son also drink a lot of milk so it would be nice not to have to got to the store to get it all the time. I have only been making one pound cheese wheels because 1- I only have so much room to age them and 2 - My high quality milk pot that I borrowed from my mom only holds a bit over one gallon of milk. Maybe I could use 1/2 gallon of raw and P/H to mix together. I am going to try to get down to Marline's today to get some milk. So far my cheese has been good but never great, maybe that will make the difference.
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Dave, I originally got the blend suggestion from linuxboy sometime back. I don't have any personal history using all raw versus the blend, but I would imagine there would be a very significant difference.
I have done the 1-to-3 blend in about six cheeses so far. Some are still quite young...they are Beauforts, Tommes, and Goutalers, so the jury is still out. As I said, raw milk @ $10/gallon versus P/H milk @ $3.65/gallon figures quite prominently in my cheese making budget.
After my post last night I pondered going down and paying for four gallons of Dungeness Valley or Cozy Valley raw milk. It would probably shock my wife. It would shock me! I may be at the point where a $50 (4lb) wheel of cheese is not so beyond the pale. I would certainly want to be successful at all points in the make.
I really envy the folks here who have access to good quality, low-cost (or no-cost) raw milk. I'm thinking that's what I need to get my 87-year-old dad for Father's Day...a sweet-faced Jersey cow for his back yard. ;) Got to keep that coyote away though. >:(
-Boofer-
Boofer,
I spent the money to make a raw milk Caerphilly, so I could see the difference. I'm pretty comfortable with Caerphillys, so I wouldn't be thrown by a poor make. The Jersey milk Caerphilly was really a great cheese, worth the $7.50 lb. it cost me. It could have sold in stores for up to $12 lb; but my budget allows that range of cheese for the occasional treat, not regular consumption. I usually use $2.09 a gallon milk, and the cheese I make is easily as good as any $3.50-$4.00 lb. storebought - OK, but no better than it ought to be. Not memorable, but makes a good grilled cheese sandwich.
The raw milk cheese had me thinking about it before I got home, and I really enjoyed it. The taste was not wildly different, but had a breadth of flavor absent in the cheap cheese, and I still remember it fondly. I'm hoping to benefit from the NSLABs in the one gallon. I'll do one or two this weekend and post back to this thread when the cheese gets sampled. I made a couple of cheeses with half goats milk a couple of weeks ago, trying to stretch the expensive goat milk, and they're looking fine. One's a Caerphilly, so we'll find out soon; the other is a Montasio, so I can see how it affects aging.
Pav, if you're following this thread, any things I can do to to encourage the NSLABs in the one gallon to spread to the other three? Maybe pre-ripening for a bit with just the NSLABs before I add the starter?
Dave in CT
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Boofer - What brand of P/H milk are you using?
I use Darigold from either Saar's or Albertson's. For some arbitrary reason I believe it is a little better P/H than the Costco or Fred Meyer brands or Mountain Dairy, etc. I'm probably totally offbase, especially if it's the same as what linuxboy is referring to as Dairygold.
Is there perhaps a way to know which are better brands of store-bought P/H milks?
my budget allows that range of cheese for the occasional treat, not regular consumption.
Yeah, I'm leaning in that direction. The weekend after Father's Day seems like a good time to go all in for a raw milk cheese.
Pav, if you're following this thread, any things I can do to to encourage the NSLABs in the one gallon to spread to the other three? Maybe pre-ripening for a bit with just the NSLABs before I add the starter?
That's an interesting proposition. Would you be able to develop more of the natural cultures embodied in the raw milk? I know some folks put their milk in the kettle the night before the make and then the following morning they bring up the temperature. The overnight preripening would seem to be acceptable as far as not allowing bad cultures to thrive. Would it make any significant difference?
-Boofer-
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That's an interesting proposition. Would you be able to develop more of the natural cultures embodied in the raw milk? I know some folks put their milk in the kettle the night before the make and then the following morning they bring up the temperature. The overnight preripening would seem to be acceptable as far as not allowing bad cultures to thrive. Would it make any significant difference?
Your NSLABs will not grow well at meso temps. You'll be making a starter. Not a bad thing, but important to note that NSLABs are most often bacilli.
Yes, if you let it ripen overnight, it will increase whatever bacteria are in there, good and bad. If you know your raw milk to naturally have great bacteria because of terroir, then go for it. IMHO, this does not happen too often in the US. Lack of tradition means lack of selected strains that dominate.
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Well, I'll give it a try today with one gallon of raw milk following a make that pre-ripens at meso temp for a while and let you know how it comes out. I'm off to the farm for the milk.
Dave in CT
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I have found that as long as I use calcium, I have no problem making cheese out of store milk. The two that I have aged for one month have been very good. They were like a cross between a sharper cheddar and a Gouda I guess. I am not very good at remembering the name of cheeses I have tasted so I can't compare very well. I just keep using Fankhauser's basic cheese recipe and tweaking it to make a softer cheese or dryer or whatever I feel like making at the moment. Today I used store milk to make Queso Blanco with garlic and herbs. It was crumbly and tasty on my home made sourdough.
Thanks for that ;)
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I made the cheese today with one gallon of raw Jersey milk, beautifully yellow, mixed with three gallons of P/H that I usually use. There was a very noticeable difference in the strength of the curd, almost as if I had used all raw milk. This cheese has a long pre-ripening, and it smells different than usual. More complex smell and flavor in the fresh curd. The yield in fresh curd was higher than normal; I barely fit it into my mold. so far so good! I'm hoping that I get a fuller, more complex flavor by adding the raw milk; but it was worth it just for the difference in the way the curd handles. I'll post back when it's time to taste it.
Dave in CT
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I am dealing with trying to source raw milk at a decent price in Vancouver WA. The best thing I have found is Dungeoness Valley Creamery. If you pick up from the dairy in Squim in your own containers and buy at least 15 gallons, it is $3 per gallon.
I need to find someone who wants some raw milk down here in Vancouver so I can make the trip worth it.
Jason
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Jason, milk in WA is pretty tough if you want it cheap. Several startups without herds are having sourcing challenges, so you're not alone. best bet is to try and make friends with a local farmer. Look on my site for the cheese trail map and talk to some of the locals down your way, like the folks in Camas, and see what they say. Not my part of the woods...
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I really envy the folks here who have access to good quality, low-cost (or no-cost) raw milk. I'm thinking that's what I need to get my 87-year-old dad for Father's Day...a sweet-faced Jersey cow for his back yard. ;) Got to keep that coyote away though. >:(
-Boofer-
I had to laugh when I read this...while I have my own cow, the milk is very far from being low-cost or no-cost. I paid $350 for a six week old heifer and it was almost two years before we had any milk. Feed and hay are far from inexpensive, there are daily chores, immunizations, vet bills, etc.
I figure we had about $1100 invested in her before she freshened the first time. You can buy an awful lot of milk for that.
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I really envy the folks here who have access to good quality, low-cost (or no-cost) raw milk. I'm thinking that's what I need to get my 87-year-old dad for Father's Day...a sweet-faced Jersey cow for his back yard. ;) Got to keep that coyote away though. >:(
-Boofer-
I had to laugh when I read this...while I have my own cow, the milk is very far from being low-cost or no-cost. I paid $350 for a six week old heifer and it was almost two years before we had any milk. Feed and hay are far from inexpensive, there are daily chores, immunizations, vet bills, etc.
I figure we had about $1100 invested in her before she freshened the first time. You can buy an awful lot of milk for that.
Just a bit of poetic license.... I'm not that naive to really believe it's low-cost/no-cost.
That same 87-year-old man and his wife (Mom) kept some three dozen ducks and two dozen geese a few years ago. The care and feeding of just those animals, along with their three dogs and six cats, was an eye-opener for me over the years. Then several years ago, while somewhat idle between careers in California, I had a fanciful notion to raise alpacas. My wife and I toured a half dozen ranches around San Jose and Simi Valley, talked with the owner-ranchers, and quietly tabled that flight of fantasy. It was somewhat of a pyramid scheme that required a boatload of cash.
I still hold onto the idea of saddling old Dad with a herd of goats though. :)
-Boofer-
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I had to laugh when I read this...while I have my own cow, the milk is very far from being low-cost or no-cost. I paid $350 for a six week old heifer and it was almost two years before we had any milk. Feed and hay are far from inexpensive, there are daily chores, immunizations, vet bills, etc.
I figure we had about $1100 invested in her before she freshened the first time. You can buy an awful lot of milk for that.
147 gallons, at the price I pay. Are you glad you did it? With the cost of feed and hay, vet bills, fence and stall repair, is it a cost savings for the milk? A cow produces a lot more milk than I could use, but if several people shared a cow, it could be would be more manageable. I'm intrigued by the idea of a family cow.
Dave in CT
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I went to Marlines today and got some raw milk, it was half off because I have to use it today. So $5 a gallon (score!). I bought two and used one to make mozzarella using the 30 min recipe. The curds were amazing! So thick and yellow. I got about 30% more cheese then I do with the store milk and it tastes way more creamy. It also has an almost buttery taste to it. I am going to slice up some tomatoes and put slices of the mozzarella on it with olive oil and basil. I am working on making a hard cheese with the other gallon. Won't know how that turns out for a month.
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Of course I'm glad I did it! I love my cow and love being able to drink milk again. I get horribly sick from past/homogenized milk and hadn't used any other than for cooking for nearly 15 years before the cow was in milk. It isn't all outgo, though. She raises up a couple of extra calves for us each year and I don't typically milk every day because the calves are able to take enough (once they are big enough) that I can skip milking for a couple of days at a time. Of course, that means that I don't get much cream and I haven't made much cheese lately, but my time has been occupied elsewhere anyway.
However, even with that, the milk from my cow is more expensive for me than buying it in the store. I'm not doing it to save money, but to be healthier. Also to raise healthier beef for my family to eat. The extra milk and they whey get fed to our pigs and chickens, too, so no milk is ever wasted around here.
In the state of Wisconsin, it is illegal for people to share ownership of a cow and share the milk from her. Sad state of affairs in the "Dairy State".
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Sad state of affairs in the "Dairy State".
Good on you, Karen.
There are no doubt lots of people on this forum and, more broadly, around the globe who wish to be able to enjoy more wholesome, less-processed foods, including raw milk products. If only those folks were a majority in their respective governments so that the governments would get out of the way and let their people consume raw milk products.
-Boofer-
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LB you mentioned a chart with a trail of good milk sources in WA but I dont see the link or attachment. Did I miss something? In any respect, do you know of any good milk sources in eastern WA? Im in the Tri-Cities.
Thanks in advance.
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I was talking about the map, but those are commercial makers. Not sure if any would sell fluid milk.
Cheesemakers on the Washington Cheese Trail - Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&source=embed&msa=0&msid=115349999708492862761.000489698d0121d83a844&ll=47.472663,-120.596924&spn=3.564645,7.03125&z=7)
What kind of milk do you need? Cow? Goat? Raw? Pasteurized?