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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => INGREDIENTS - Lactic Acid Starter Cultures => Topic started by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on September 13, 2011, 12:43:21 AM

Title: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on September 13, 2011, 12:43:21 AM
Kefir has got a lot of bacteria and yeasts that can be used as starter bacteria. If you follow the thermophilic starter procedures and use Kefir instead of fresh milk, you would be getting a good and strong culture ecosystem.

Strain about 1 litre of Kefir (separate the gems) and use your yogurt maker or keep the temperature about 43C to 50C. This will eliminate most of the mesophilic cultures and some yeast.

When it is curdled like yogurt (about a day or 2) separate 500ml and mix it with 500ml skimmed pasteurised milk. Put in your temperature controlled yogurt maker and keep it 43C to 50C constant till it curdles again.

If you do this for 7 to 10 times, you will get a strong thermophilic ecosystem with lots of different thermo bacteria.

I wonder what type of yeast can be left active after this process.

The known types of bacteria in Kefir are listed below. The bold ones are thermophilic bacteria (if I am not mistaken).
LACTOBACILLI
•   Lactobacillus acidophilus
•   Lb. brevis [or Lb. kefiri]
•   Lb. casei subsp. casei
•   Lb. casei subsp. rhamnosus
•   Lb. paracasei subsp. paracasei
•   Lb. fermentum
•   Lb. cellobiosus
•   Lb. delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus
•   Lb. delbrueckii subsp. lactis
•   Lb. fructivorans
•   Lb. helveticus subsp. lactis
•   Lb. hilgardii
•   Lb. helveticus
•   Lb. kefiri
•   Lb. kefiranofaciens subsp. kefirgranum
•   Lb. kefiranofaciens subsp. kefiranofaciens
•   Lb. parakefiri
•   Lb. plantarum
STREPTOCOCCI/LACTOCOCCI
•   Streptococcus thermophilus
•   St. paracitrovorus
•   Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
•   Lc. lactis subsp. lactis biovar. diacetylactis
•   Lc. lactis subsp. cremoris
•   Enterococcus durans
•   Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris
•   Leuc. mesenteroides subsp. mesenteroides
•   Leuc. dextranicum
YEAST
•   Dekkera anomala t/ Brettanomyces anomalus a
•   Kluyveromyces marxianus t/ Candida kefyr
•   Pichia fermentans t/ C. firmetaria
•   Yarrowia lipolytica t/ C. lipolytica
•   Debaryomyces hansenii t/ C. famata
•   Deb. [Schwanniomyces] occidentalis
•   Issatchenkia orientalis t/ C. krusei
•   Galactomyces geotrichum t/ Geotrichum candidum
•   C. friedrichii
•   C. rancens
•   C. tenuis
•   C. humilis
•   C. inconspicua
•   C. maris
•   Cryptococcus humicolus
•   Kluyveromyces lactis var. lactis
•   Kluyv. bulgaricus
•   Kluyv. lodderae
•   Saccharomyces cerevisiae
•   Sacc. subsp. torulopsis holmii
•   Sacc. pastorianus
•   Sacc. humaticus
•   Sacc. unisporus
•   Sacc. exiguus
•   Sacc. turicensis sp. nov
•   Torulaspora delbrueckii t
•   Zygosaccharomyces rouxii

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lgpO5erOGtw/SwPulxknkOI/AAAAAAAAAHM/to9S8X1mhB4/s1600/kefir4.jpg)
Kefir Grains or AKA Kefir Gems

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lgpO5erOGtw/SwPuxK8M7zI/AAAAAAAAAHc/LjaNcDEM28g/s1600/kefir6.jpg)
Kefir Gems are ready for next batch
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: Boofer on September 13, 2011, 03:16:41 AM
Where do those "grains" come from? I've bought kefir powder and it doesn't look like that. I've also bought kefir to use as a starter (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2172.msg16483.html#msg16483) and it didn't have anything like that in it.

-Boofer-


Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on September 13, 2011, 04:03:15 AM
Hi Boofer,

Kefir Gems are the polysaccharide structures created by the symbiotic relationship between the cultures and yeast. The "gem" is the real thing that ferments the milk at room temp. They grow and multiply if looked after then you can share or freeze or eat them etc.

It is also mentioned here in this post (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2938.msg43079.html#msg43079).

BTW, the commercial kefir powders are not the real thing and they may not have all the bacteria mentioned above.
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: mtncheesemaker on September 13, 2011, 04:07:41 AM
Boofer, you have to get them from someone. They kind of grow with use and then you can split them and share. I make kefir at least every other week to keep them alive.
I've never used kefir as a cheese starter, but have wondered what it would be like.
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: dthelmers on September 13, 2011, 01:21:04 PM
Gürkan: that's quite a lot of characters in that mix. What cheeses have you made with kefir as starter? How did they taste? It looks like there are enough mesophiles in there for a mesophilic cheese, have you tried that?
This looks pretty interesting. I'm thinking that this would give a more complex flavor profile when using cheap milk like I do? Pav, any help?
Dave in CT
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: sstrantz on September 13, 2011, 01:37:32 PM
Here is a source to get the Kefir Grains:

  http://www.culturesforhealth.com/milk-kefir-grains.html (http://www.culturesforhealth.com/milk-kefir-grains.html)

I have not tried them but was going to order some a couple days ago and got side-tracked.  There are probably other places as well, besides getting some from someone who is already using them from their batch as I understand that they multiply quite prolifically and can be shared.  I heard of someone getting some from a college newspaper classified ad when someone's grains had multiplied to the point that they were giving some away to anyone that wanted some.  (Kind-of like sour dough.)
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on September 13, 2011, 10:16:42 PM
I have done Feta, as some of the recipes tell me to use a mixture of meso and thermo; I kept the brine strong though to prevent any yeast from growing. The taste was not that different

I made full kefir cheeses (somewhat like chevre) couple of times because I was lazy to strain it for a week and the whey separated. I kept it in the humidity chamber like a cam once and it was about to walk by itself. Smelled like  :-\ I can not really explain...

The problem is after lactobacilli finishes off with the energy sources, yeasts take over and not one but many strains. It is still alive unless you use vinegar, heavy brine, salt etc to keep them on the bay.

I didn't try the thermo side yet. If you take something like parmesan, romano recipe as a base I am sure there may be some different flavours are hidden there.

Given that it has a lot of yeasts, may be even cam/brie or morbier, reblochon types may come out.

It is just a matter of trying I guess.
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: linuxboy on September 13, 2011, 10:19:13 PM
Quote
This looks pretty interesting. I'm thinking that this would give a more complex flavor profile when using cheap milk like I do? Pav, any help?
Only use for fresh cheese that has an acid profile, like chevre frais.

If you're going to use it for starter, puree the grains, culture the milk, and thermize them repeatedly over 5-10 generations (inoculate, culture, thermize, use portion for next batch) to create a proper thermophilic starter free of yeasts and mesos.

I've had kefir cheese from multiple places. It's always been terrible.
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: dthelmers on September 13, 2011, 10:23:41 PM
Thanks for the advice. I'll stick to my old reliable cultures for the present.
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: cheeseymama on September 13, 2011, 11:08:00 PM
I make kefir everyday, the grains (or gems as some call them) grow pretty fast, at least they do, when you change the milk they "eat" that often. By pretty fast, I mean a quart of grains turns into around four quarts by the end of a season for me. I've tried using freshly strained kefir for cheese starter and never had success, even soft cheese comes out way too sour for my taste. Never tried to isolate the thermo's from my kefir milk though, pretty novel and interesting idea. I'll have to try it. For those who would like to learn about getting a using  real kefir grains (instead of the manufactured powdered kefir) a good place to look is, Dom's kefir site the link follows:
 http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefir-faq.html. (http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefir-faq.html.) There is also a very active yahoo group ...kefir_making, I believe it is called, which is a wonderful place to exchange info about kefir with other like minded people. Kefir is great stuff! ^-^
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: Boofer on September 14, 2011, 03:01:43 AM
Thanks for the advice. I'll stick to my old reliable cultures for the present.
That was my decision too after making a kefir Gouda (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2172.msg16483.html#msg16483). I think there was too much going on in there.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: Mateo on November 09, 2011, 03:57:06 PM
this thread help me , with my question of kefir , but open a new ways

to see how kefir can be for hard cheese too
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on February 15, 2012, 10:29:15 PM
OK, here are the results.

I drained some kefir and put it into my 1 litre yogurt maker. At 43 degrees celcius most mesophiles died off. I have done this at least 5 generations to strengthen the flora; inoculating the skimmed milk with previous batch of kefir yogurt. At the end, I filled into ice block trays and frozen.

First trial was with feta and mixed culture of Flora Danica and Kefir used. Results were too good. Fresh Jersey milk is used. The feta did have some irregular holes and taste was awesome. Acidity increased too fast, and actually if I use it for toasting, it melts and stretches but if you eat just straight from brine, it is creamy, and has a pleasant aroma. I am very happy with the results.

The second was haloumi and that one was also awesome. Fried nicely without loosing its shape. My wife gave the ranking of "best cheese I have ever made"  ^-^

I have used it in two other experiments (Comte and another hard washed rind type (improvised recipe) and will see the results in about 6 months.
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: Boofer on February 16, 2012, 02:29:47 PM
Kudos to you, Gürkan, for your success.

Have a cheese for your experimentation, inquisitiveness, and for sharing.  :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on February 16, 2012, 10:03:21 PM
Thanks Boofer  :)
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: DeejayDebi on February 18, 2012, 05:23:33 PM
I am very impressed with your experiment and your explainations. Good job Gürkan!

I do believe that is worth another cheese!
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on February 19, 2012, 09:58:39 PM
Thanks Debi  :D
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: Corina on February 20, 2012, 10:17:59 AM
How long do you keep kefir at high temperatures before you empti the grains and repeat ?
The grains used for this heating, do you still use them for usual kefir-you have lost some bacteria in the process- or you keep another batch of grains for kefir making?
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on February 20, 2012, 10:29:45 PM
Hi Corina,

I only use strained kefir (kefiran) for this process. Kefir grains (kefir gems) are not used in the yogurt maker. I wouldn't put them under that much of stress  ;)

Once you get a fairly thick kefir going at room temp, strain the gems and use only kefiran in your yogurt maker.
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: Corina on February 21, 2012, 06:20:41 AM
Thank you.
I make kefir every day, had some stomach problems and it took care of those, so I will give it a try.
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: Annie on June 19, 2012, 02:12:11 PM
Just wanted to say thanks for the information about what to do with the kefir to make it right for a cheese starter :D

I looked up making yogurt in a crockpot, and a lady said she did it.... she put a towel over the crockpot which had the yogurt mixture to the right temp, turned off the crockpot, and put a heavy towel over it. She turned the crock pot on a couple of times for 10 minutes during the 7 hours to maintain the heat.

So I will be trying two things at once :) (I am sooo tired of using a cooler and heating pad for making yogurt!)

Will return in a few days to let folks know how it all turns out!
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: TraditionalGoats on June 20, 2012, 05:22:45 AM
I have extra grains if anyone needs any, they do well in raw or pasteurized milk.

I have made Tvorog and kefir cheese from the kefir.  We use Tvorog quite often in our cooking.  I didn't even think of using it as a starter culture in anything else. 

Tracy
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: Spellogue on September 14, 2012, 09:29:12 PM
I make Kefir from grains regularly.  I usually only ferment it for 12 hrs.  Good stuff to drink straight, warm or cold, or used in fruit smoothies.  I often do secondary fermentations after the grains are removed too.   I tried it as a starter for lactic coagulated chevre twice. 

Once I cultured two quarts of goat milk with 1/3 cup buttermilk and 1/6 cup finished kefir.  at 80 degrees F for 18 hrs.  Then drained through buttermuslin for 18 hrs at room temp. salted. (failed to record amount of salt)  Formed into 2 logs and coated one with herbs.  My tasting notes are recorded as " excellent throughout.  became slightly lemony at 10 days.  Wonderful, firm, creamy at three weeks when last of it was eaten"

Next time I cultured 1 1/2  gal. goat milk with 1 1/2 pt 12 hr kefir and 1 1/2 pt 24 hr kefir  and 1/2 cup buttermilk.  85 deg F for 24 hours.  Drained 24 hrs.  mixed in 1 1/2 tbsp salt.  Rolled into 3 logs, left one plain, one with Greek spices, one with Sicilian spices.  tasting notes:  " a little tart at the outset.  cut kefir by more than half next time.  at 3 weeks far too sour.  edible, but not to enjoyable on its own.  ok on a salad."  I remember this one tasing like vinegar.

Fun experiments.  I would use kefiran as chevre adjunct culture again in the future, but in very small amounts, and I would eat it young.
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: idahoseashell on October 19, 2012, 05:23:59 AM
I am puzzled why you used so much starter? Most of the recipes I have across call for 2 oz of starter per gallon of milk. It seems to me that using more would guarantee a very acidic cheese. In the first recipe you used approximately 4 oz  total of kefir and buttermilk in half a gallon which is 4 times more than I would think would be necessary but apparently it worked okay. But in the second recipe you used about 52 oz of kefir an buttermilk in a gallon and a half? You should only have needed 3 ozs. I have been using buttermilk to make cheese and it seems to acidify faster that the normal cultures so I was thinking I should be able to use less than 2 oz per gallon!
Title: Re: Using Kefir as Thermophilic Starter
Post by: Spellogue on October 20, 2012, 02:47:53 PM
That was early on in my Cheesemaking endeavors.  Even from that last wxperiment I noted "cut back on the kefir". At that point I might still have been under the mindset of 'more is better'. I normally use commercial DVI starters now.  Next spring when milk is again plentiful I'll try using kefiran as a starter adjunct in some more chèvres.  I didn't always get what I deemed to be satisfactory results using just buttermilk.  I much preferred the cheeses I made using yogurt as a starter.  I haven't tried kefiran alone.

I just had a thought of trying to take advantage of the yeast in kefir as a rind treatment, as one would PLA. Perhaps I'll try diluting  with 3% brine and adding a pinch of geo to wash a rind sometime too.