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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Semi-Hard "Sweet" Washed Curd => Topic started by: JeffHamm on September 23, 2012, 12:48:55 PM

Title: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on September 23, 2012, 12:48:55 PM
Hi,

I've decided to try a tomme again, but this time I'll let it develop a natural rind and see how that turns out.  The natural rind on my Staffordshire has such a great aroma that I thought this would be a good experiement.  Will see if the prediction holds.  The cheese is in the brine now.  Will get a photo when it comes out.

- Jeff

Tomme (Pav’s instructions) Sunday, Sept 23, 2012
11 L Silver Top Cream line
6 ice cubes buttermilk
¼ tsp 50% CaCl
1.77 ml 280 IMCU calf rennet

1)   Add ice cubes and CaCl
2)   Warm 11 litres milk 31.10C (31.1 C : 2:00)
3)   Ripen for 30 mins at 31.10C (88 F) (2:00 - 2:30 ; 31.1 C)
4)   add rennet (2:30:00 ??.? C)
5)   floc time (2:44:00 = 14m 00 sec 3x = floc time 42m 00sec = cut time 3:12:00)
6)   Cut into 1/4 inch cubes, let rest 5 mins (3:20 - 3:25)
7)   Stir and increase temp to 37.80C (100 F) over 30 mins. (3:25 – 3:45, temp reached)
8)   Hold at 37.80C (100 F)  until the curd is at the right texture. You can tell this by pressing a tablespoon of curd in your hand. It should mat together slightly and be somewhat firm. (4:45 pm)
9)   Drain in vat or warm colander. pH should be 6.35 or higher. Let curds mat and press slightly under whey. Drained and by 5:00 into mould.  Flipped at 5:15 and 5:45
10)   Put into cheesecloth lined molds. This cheese sticks, so soak the cheesecloth in pH 5.2 whey beforehand. (at 5:00)
11)   Press under own weight turning at 15 min (5:15), 30 min (5:45), and 1 hour increments (6:45). (flipped through the day; with 2.5 kg as weight)
12)   Press until pH is 5.4 or overnight. (Pressed until 5:30 am )
13)   Brine in fully saturated brine 3-4 hours per lb of cheese. (1.698kg = 9.33-12.44; 15.4 x 7.6 = 1.20 g/cm3 ; hours 5:30 am – 6:30 pm 13.0 hours;  1696g out of the brine, 15.6 x 7.5 cm = 1433 cm3 = 1.18 g/cm3 ; the extra height is probably due to the light pressing)
14)   Leave at12.8-18.30C  (55-65 F) for a day at ~70% RH for the outer rind to dry a little before moving to the cave.
•Age 3-6 months at 10-12.80C (50-55F), 85-92% RH (or higher if using special rind treatment or making a b linens variant). Natural or oil rubbed rind.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on September 23, 2012, 04:19:26 PM
13)   Brine in fully saturated brine 3-4 hours per lb of cheese. (1.698kg = 9.33-12.44; 15.4 x 7.6 = 1.20 g/cm3 ; hours 5:30 am – ?:?? pm ??.? hours;  ????g out of the brine, ??.? x ?.? cm = ???? cm3 = ?.?? g/cm3 ; the extra height is probably due to the light pressing)
1.7kg is about 3¾ pounds.  Do 13 hours, or 6½ per side of cheese (turn them in the brine after 6½ hours of the 13, that is)

Which aging regiment are you going to  take?
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on September 23, 2012, 07:49:10 PM
Hi iratherfly,

I was thinking 12.5-14 hours.  I've asked my wife to flip it before she goes out at 10:30, which is as close to the mid point as we could get.

I'm thinking I'll let this develop a natural rind, so I'll air dry it a couple days, then move it to the cave.  If I can keep it from cracking, then I'll age this one out to around 6 months.  At that point, we may reassess.  Will see what cheeses are in the fridge at the time and how it's progressing.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on September 24, 2012, 02:04:25 AM
Are you going to wash it? Or do you want crazy wild rind, a-la Tomme de Savoie?

If you want to go wild, put it in aging container. Go extremely humid (92%-96%) and watch the "horrific" poil de chat take over. It will look scary but fear not! It will be awesome and mushroomy and do miracles to your texture. Aim for 2 months minimum. 3 months optimum.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on September 24, 2012, 02:29:26 AM
Hi iratherfly,

Thanks for the tips because I'm going to let it go wild a al Tomme de Savoie, so more or less leave it be.  My one maintenance routine is that I generally brush down the wild molds whenever I see blue showing up.  This seems to help let the other molds dominate, and once they are firmly established I can leave them to it.  Otherwise, we seem to have a fairly aggressive wild blue that sort of takes over and I want to see how the others do.  This has worked really well on my staffordshire make, so I'll try it again with this tomme.  I've got a container that will be able to be kept very humid, so I'm looking forward to this experiment.  I've posted a photo above, showing it out of the brine.  This one is a bit heavier than the first one I made, but not as tall.  I cooked the curds longer, to expell more whey, but I've also used a better quality milk this time.  The difference was very noticable in terms of the quality of the curds. 

Anyway, I'll try and keep some postings on this one as the rind develops.  I'll put warnings up so that little ones may be removed from the room before viewing.  :)

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Tomer1 on September 24, 2012, 05:05:44 AM
Will dry salting make it more difficult to do natural rind treatments in hard cheeses?
Should the salt be devided into two saltings (like you do with blues) or is it ok to just crust the wheel? :)
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Boofer on September 24, 2012, 09:13:18 AM
You can just feel the excitement in the air! My hair gets all tingly!  ^-^

This looks to be a fun one to watch, Jeff. I'm so fascinated with what natural rinds do. It is magical, or put another way...
It will be awesome and mushroomy and do miracles to your texture.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on September 24, 2012, 12:28:16 PM
Hi Tomer1,

don't know about dry salting.  I've brined this one, but other methods are possible.  I know I'm getting a decent wild rind on the Staffordshire, and it was milled and salt added to the curds before pressing.  Others, such as the semi-lactics I've made, I've dry salted the cheese (but semi-lactics are quite different).  I can't think of a hard cheese make of my own where I've dry salted the cheese itself as the primary technique.  However, my guess (and that's all it is), is that molds will find their way regardless.

And yes Boofer, I'm hoping something very exciting does develop.

Thanks iratherfly for the tip that 3 months is optimum.  I was thinking more like 6 months, but 3 is better.  That should put it right about New Years.  Nice.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Alpkäserei on September 24, 2012, 08:40:34 PM
I have tried dry salting and salt washing before in the hopes that it might possibly impede the growth of molds and such, as an alternative for the wine-based wash that I now use. It doesn't work. We have aggressive white and blue molds living in our 110 year old cellar where we age our cheese that doesn't even slow down for salt. I'll stick with the wine.

I've considered letting some cheese go some time, letting the molds and whatever other subterranean creatures may be lurking have their way with it. But it scares the dickens out of me. And I'm too much in love with the traditional process that I'm using that maybe I'll never be willing to so radically depart. :-\ 

So I'll be watching your efforts to see how it goes for you, and maybe I'll find the courage to do it myself :o

Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on September 25, 2012, 01:35:04 AM
Hi Alpkäserei,

I've not had a lot of luck with brine and vinegar washes to keep the mold at bay, but then, I think it probably works best if you give a brine wash every couple days for the first month or so rather than after the molds have got a foot hold. 

These wild rinds are traditional for tommes.  But, so is a b.linens washed rind, or you could do a wine washed rind version.  Pav's tomme is designed to be very versitile, so you could find something that doesn't keep you up at night! :)

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Boofer on September 25, 2012, 08:36:06 AM
Jeff, I decided to go with the milder rind for my Tomme #6 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9807.0.html) and it came out very nicely. I started it in early June so it's just about ready to be sampled. I'll be using my new toy (that my wife is giving me for Christmas ;)) to sample it.

The rind treatment for this one was a 3% brine with PLA.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on September 25, 2012, 12:03:52 PM
Hi Boofer,

I checked your #6 thread (as apposed to #8 wire) and there's no photo of the rind as it now stands!  The cheese, in all it's naked glory, looks wonderful, but show us how it is dressed up in its Sunday best as apposed to its birthday suit! :)  Especially since I would love to see how this PLA treatment turns out.

I've not seen anybody selling these (we're sort of limited to flora danica, some mad millie mixes, and a the odd thermophile; can get LH and b.linens, but not much else around).

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Tomer1 on September 25, 2012, 12:18:53 PM
Quote
I can't think of a hard cheese make of my own where I've dry salted the cheese itself as the primary technique.  However, my guess (and that's all it is), is that molds will find their way regardless.

Obviously its a different ball game with moist soft cheeses.
Im not trying to retard growth (dry salting will obviously wont work, blue mold has no problem overcoming salt)
but wondering if it will make it harder to grow wild geo and linens.

I really dont like brining, I find that I often overshoot the final pH target - espacially during summer.
I prefer to dry salt and put it in the cave to stop acidification untill salt is well diffused.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on September 25, 2012, 12:30:26 PM
Hi Tomer1,

I was just thinking, by dry salting, do you mean adding salt to the milled curds?  I took it to mean just to put salt on the outside surface, like with cams, etc.

I brine some, and don't find it a problem, but then, I don't have a pH meter so I have no idea where I am on that curve.  Sometimes, ignorance is bliss! :)  Well, until things go wrong and you have no idea why.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on September 25, 2012, 03:50:09 PM
Will dry salting make it more difficult to do natural rind treatments in hard cheeses?
Should the salt be devided into two saltings (like you do with blues) or is it ok to just crust the wheel? :)
In my experience, this isn't an issue at all. I dry-salt all my cheeses and almost never bother with brine (only when the brine is an infusion for the cheese with something cool mixed into it). It works perfectly fine (Tomer, you have tasted my cheese so you've tasted my Tommes so you know how they turned out dry-salted).  I actually like it much better than brining. I feel that brining is a great idea if you are doing a batch with lots of wheels or you need to make identical cheeses every day and dump them all into a brine bath without thinking about it too much.  In manufacturing environment brine makes a lot of sense: Make one brine, use it repeatedly. Save a lot on salt because one brine will serve many cheeses.
...BUT, for a single cheese (or for just a few wheels), you would actually use FAR more salt than you would need in dry-salting. Think of it; if you saturate 1 gallon brine to 24% you will use roughly 2 lbs / 1kg of salt. Is that worth it for one 4lbs / 2kg cheese? Dry salting the same cheese would only require 3.5 oz /100g salt! That's 90% less!!!) And then, there is the work; you need to adjust the pH and temperature, maybe test salinity or maintain the brine for future washes, use and sanitize extra dishes/bowls/utensils, take up room in the fridge if you want to keep the brine. None of this fuss when dry-salting, right?

And the cheese? Salt absorption, osmosis, phage protection and rind formation? Totally the same.

As for your question about double salting: You only need to do this with cheese with specidic recipe for curd salting and secondary rind salting. With very wet delicate cheeses such as Chèvre or Saint Marcellin, it is a common practice to salt only the top with 50% of the salt, wait 6 hours, turn and salt the not-yet-salted side which is now the new top. No need to do this with Tommes. My 5 cents
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: margaretsmall on September 25, 2012, 04:16:31 PM
Good point about the huge difference in the salt usage; and even though salt is pretty cheap, there's the environmental issue of disposing the brine. Could you just confirm that you  sprinkle the appropriate amount of salt over the cheese straight after it's been pressed at the rate of 100gr/2kg cheese? Do you massage it in?
Margaret
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on September 25, 2012, 05:29:47 PM
Yes Margaret, but good salt like cheese salt or pure Kosher salt with no anti-caking additives and iodine can still cost $3 for a 3 Lbs package. Should you really spend $2 (2/3rd of a package) on salting one cheese? If you think of it, that's more money spent on salt per lb of cheese than on cultures! (and do you really want to buy salt all the time if one box can last you 30 tommes?) It adds up.

The salt guidelines are different from cheese to cheese. Reblochon needs about 1.5% salt. Blue needs 3%, Tomme I usually do at 2%-2.5%.  If you know the weight of your cheese, calculate the salt it needs and add about 15% to make up for salt that is going to spill around the cheese and not make it.

Roll the cheese in it or toss it on the cheese Try to be even but it's not critical because the osmosis will make the salt travel in your cheese at all directions anyway and within minutes. In many cases it will look like A LOT of salt and you will need to pile up more salt than would stick to the cheese. Rub it if you want (and if the cheese isn't too soft). It encourages rind formation.  Come back to the drying rack an hour and be amazed to to find out that this huge pile of salt has been dissolved. The top surface will be very wet so turn the cheese over and come back 10-12 hours later to check on it. Couldn't be any easier!
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: margaretsmall on September 25, 2012, 05:53:56 PM
Thanks Yoav, I'll do this next time.
Margaret
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Alpkäserei on September 25, 2012, 06:38:04 PM
Quote
I really dont like brining, I find that I often overshoot the final pH target - espacially during summer.
I prefer to dry salt and put it in the cave to stop acidification untill salt is well diffused.

That's why it's important that your brine be cool, like the same temperature as your aging room cool. My brine tank is on the concrete floor next to my aging shelves, so that keeps the cheese good and cool while it's absorbing the salt. Brining cheese doesn't just add salt, it also develops the strength of the rind, and has some effect on the texture of the cheese as well.

If you don't have a cool room, you might try brining it in the refrigerator. if you have enough room to.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on September 25, 2012, 06:52:05 PM
I reuse my brine as I can store enough to do one cheese in the refrigerator.  However, I might give dry salting a go, just to try a different technique.  I like to have many strings to my bow, but not too many irons in the fire.  And , after that brief decent into the depths of metaphor land, I now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: bbracken677 on September 25, 2012, 07:08:12 PM
A stitch in time saves nine...I too save my brine, but have wondered (20%) how often I should replace since no doubt some of the salt leeches out, at least, I think more salt than fluid does and I have no way to determine salinity. So, t'would be better to close the barn door before the cattle have left rather than after. Besides, you may want to make sure you put the cart after the horse!!

haha
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Alpkäserei on September 25, 2012, 07:16:34 PM
I learned that every time you put cheese into the brine, you sprinkle a handful of salt over the top of it. That way the salt content of the brine is kept up, as you are always adding more and more salt. This brine is kept the entire season.

As long as those stringy sea monsters don't start growing in it, you can keep the brine as long as you please. Though maybe boiling it every now and then is a good idea to kill anything that might be trying to colonize.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on September 25, 2012, 07:37:06 PM
Yah, every now and then I just re-boil it.   I try and keep it at a saturated level, or near to, so I keep some extra salt in the bottom of the container so that when I put the brine back in the bottle it can take up any missing salt that the cheese took.   Just make sure you put some calcium chloride in when you first make it up or it will leach it out of the cheese. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on September 26, 2012, 02:00:57 AM
If you toss salt until salt no longer dissolves and you see it collecting at the bottom, you know that the brine is fully saturated (26.5% approx).  Cheese soaks up some of the salt so just feed the brine salt until you see it collecting on the bottom again so you know you have re-saturated it. As long as the liquid is clear there is no need to replace it.  The salinity is so high that nothing can really grow in it anyway
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Alpkäserei on September 26, 2012, 11:36:04 AM
You'd think so, but I've had slime grow in it already at full saturation.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on September 26, 2012, 03:01:03 PM
Hi  Alpkäserei,

Did the slime grow in it, or come from the last cheese?  Could it be butterfats, or whey proteins, etc. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Alpkäserei on September 26, 2012, 04:32:26 PM
so, it's a living organism. It happens when your brine is stored in too warm a location, or exposed to the light, or both. It's more like a stringy slimy almost algae like growth, I'm pretty sure it's just a bacterial growth though.

Also, I never learned about adding calcium chloride. In fact, I'm fairly certain the Swiss would be horrified at the idea. Just salt an water. But also, the first cheeses made each season are an inferior cheese. I guess that sort of prepares the brine for the good cheeses to be made a little later on.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on September 26, 2012, 08:07:20 PM
Ah, yes, ok,
"It's ALIVE"

I would think that the early season cheeses would lose calcium to the fresh brine but by the time the good cheeses are made the levels are fine. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on September 27, 2012, 04:09:10 PM
You'd think so, but I've had slime grow in it already at full saturation.
Are you sure it's not something the cheese left behind which just bonds together by enzymatic activity?
Does that grow IN the liquid, or on the surface?
In any event, pathogens are unable to exist in this salinity.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on September 29, 2012, 06:12:29 PM
I've mixed 1/40 tsp of b.linens in a brine of 4g salt to 100 g water (about 3.8% brine) and given the cheese a wipe with a damp cloth of this mixture.  I've decided that I'll try and build up a bit of a washed rind, but not too strong, just enough to get a bit of control over what grows on it, and then let it go wild.  Partly because my first attempt to do this split, so I've got the humidity up in the box.  Also, this make has a much firmer feel to it than the last one, so I think it will be less prone to slumping and stretching and tearing the rind (and it has more support underneath it).  We'll see how it goes.

- Jeff

P.S. Washed it twice now, Sunday Sept 30th, and Tuesday Oct 2nd.  Will wash every other day until some b.linens activity spotted and then smeared around the whole cheese.  I don't want it too far along, as I do want other volunteers to show up as well.
P.P.S. Another wash on Thursday, Oct 4th.  There appears to be some evidence of b.linens showing up.  The surface seems to be taking on a discolouration, so we should see something soon.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 04, 2012, 12:30:10 AM
Hi,

Here's a photo update after the 3rd wash.  Not sure if it shows up in the photos, but there is just the hint of discolouration starting to show on this.  The left side bottom to about the middle of the bottom then up the side sort of looks "patchy", with a beige haze in places.  I figure I'll wash it every other day through to the end of next week, and see how it's comming along then.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on October 04, 2012, 06:51:36 AM
I really appreciate that you post your progress and include photos!!  Thank you!   :D. It's how I learn best.  I'm waiting for a couple of cheese books to arrive in the mail and hoping that they educate me and fill in some of the holes in my knowledge.  (there are SO many holes I just hope for a little help from reading). I'm going to try a Tomme again soon......but I know that I have to be able to stay on top of the affinage stage better than I have. 
Thanks for showing the way........

edited later on because I had no idea the auto-speller was having such fun with my post!
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: bbracken677 on October 04, 2012, 07:27:29 AM
Looks very nice! Probably best that about 10 days in that you don't have massive growth, but rather just the beginnings of some!  I would think that slow accumulation of flora would be preferred.
On the other hand...I don't believe I have ever tasted a tomme of any kind and have never made one.  It is on my list to make, but not the short one as I am focusing on mastering cheddars. I will occasionally deviate with a blue until I get those down as well.
My most recent recipe development will be my next make, and gives me hope that, perhaps, if I get my processes under control I will be able to make some outstanding cheddars! Also...given the rind treatment for the tomme...I wonder what a cheddar would be like with a little flora growing on it   :o
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 04, 2012, 12:46:34 PM
Hi Tiarella,

I'm glad these are of some use to you.  I also found I learned most when people posted updates and progress reports, so I sort of got into the habit of it.  It helps my own memory when I decide to go back and try something again.  Sometimes I have things in the thread that I forgot to record in my records.

My first tomme split during affinage, and although I've rarely had that problem before, from what I've been reading I expect my humidity was too low.  So, I've got the box lid less open for this one and the humidity is definately higher.  Of course, the make went a bit differently and I used better milk this time as well, oh and I think the integrity of the cheese is better as a result.  So, if it doesn't split this time, I won't know what I changed to make the difference, but I'll still be happy. 

Anyway, my plan, subject to the whims of time, is to get a bit of a b.linens undergrowth, then let geo and other moulds grow wild.  We'll see how that goes.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 04, 2012, 12:50:44 PM
Hi bbracken677,

Yah, not too crazy early on is probably best.  It does take a while for b.linens to get going, but from my experience by the end of next week it should be definately visible.  Once it shows up I'll stop the washings (or just use brine to smear it around) but it will still develop for a while.

Cheddars often are quite mouldy, but the rind is cut off.  Wensleydale is also made as a blue cheese, so given your interests, you could try a blue wensleydale.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: bbracken677 on October 04, 2012, 01:54:01 PM
Interesting...I will think about that. Seems like a pretty good idea for a future experiment   ;)
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Boofer on October 07, 2012, 10:51:33 AM
I wonder what a cheddar would be like with a little flora growing on it   :o
Umm, moldy?  :o

Or Blacksticks (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,8330.msg58409.html#msg58409)....

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on October 07, 2012, 12:48:17 PM
I wonder what a cheddar would be like with a little flora growing on it   :o


Cheddar IS a moldy cheese!  Vaccum pack and convenient waxing are modern day inventions intended for mass storage with no affinage work and to eliminate any wild or strong flavor and create a consistent moldless supermarket product. Traditional and artisan cheddars (especially the clothbound examples) are moldy!

Quicke's Traditional (UK):
(https://www.vinsullivan.net/productimages/display/SS-image-2011-06-24-4e0464cd9065f.jpg)

Cabot Clothbound (US):
(http://formaggiokitchen.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/cabot-clothbound-cheddar-cellars-at-jasper-hill.jpg)

Montgomery's Cheddar (UK):
(http://farm1.staticflickr.com/35/122805033_6386e80c23_o.jpg) (https://www.vinsullivan.net/productimages/display/SS-image-2011-09-09-4e6a73f41bd26.jpg)

Grafton Cheddar (US):
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__QzSCmb7VTg/TKP5MSFTfQI/AAAAAAAAB-o/nvBhKZQKx1I/s1600/DSC_8623.jpg)
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: bbracken677 on October 07, 2012, 12:59:20 PM
Nice! I will have to take one of my existing cheddars and blue it  :)

Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Boofer on October 07, 2012, 02:24:11 PM
Cheddar IS a moldy cheese!
Yeah, that's what I meant to say.  ::)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on October 07, 2012, 02:43:27 PM
Nice! I will have to take one of my existing cheddars and blue it  :)
Eh... you mean Stilton?  :P

The blue looking mold in these rustic Cheddars isn't really blue. This is what happens in areas where the curd was cold and didn't knot well. It's really a sort of a rind growth in pockets inside the paste. Very common in these as well as their moldy rustic French cousin, the Cantal (AKA Cantalet).
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 09, 2012, 12:08:58 PM
Just updating.

Have continued to wash on the 6th, 8th, and today, the 10th.  There is a definate "slime" feel to the cheese now, so mission accomplished.  Will stop the wash regime and let the linens just "ripen" and for the surface mould to now start to move in.  This make is not slumping the way the first one did, and it has a much firmer feel to it than the first one. 

That being said, the first one is a huge success. A friend of mine (who quite likes their cheese) rated it as his favorite of mine so far.  I'm quite enjoying it as well, and Vanessa and Genesta are both favorably disposed towards it, and all my tasters at work have given it the thumbs up.  Sadly, I'm not quite sure what I did to end up with such a fluid retentive cheese.  I've got decent notes, so I should be able to reproduce it, but we'll see how this next one turns out first.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 15, 2012, 05:20:20 PM
Was going to discontinue the wash, but some blue took up residence.  So, gave it one more wash yesterday (Oct 15th) and got a good smear going.  Now, I'm bringing the humidity down a wee bit to get the rind to firm up and then see if we can get some non-blue mold action.  At the moment the rind is a bit wet and tacky, so I can't really brush back the mold and get the wild rind going.  But, don't want it too dry either.  Will see how it goes. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Alpkäserei on October 15, 2012, 08:00:37 PM
keep it turned often, that will help the smear to dry off and the rind to firm up, and help keep mold from growing. Even though you are no longer washing the cheese itself, it may be a good idea to continue to wash whatever surface it is on, maybe even with vinegar or some other mold-suppressing agent. Don't know where you are keeping it, but keep it as dark as you can manage.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 15, 2012, 09:16:38 PM
Thanks.  I turn it morning and evening.  It's in a ripening box in my "cave", which is a wine fridge that maintains 10 C.  I want moulds to grow, but not blue.  Once the smear firms up and I can brush it, then I can brush it to keep the blue in check, but while it's still moist the b.linens will just come off too easily.  Should be good in a day or two, and this last wipe and smear was just a final touch.  I want to develop a wild mould rind on it, so I'm not trying to prevent all growth, but rather just steer it towards non-blue.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Alpkäserei on October 15, 2012, 09:21:10 PM
Right, and that may mean that you have to keep everything suppressed until the rind starts to dry of a little. At least that is how it works in our aging cellar. If we let a cheese go in the beginning, it gets covered with blue. But if we keep it cleaned until it's a little drier than other molds can do better.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 16, 2012, 11:47:32 AM
Exactly.  When it's early on and damp, blue just takes hold.  But it needs to be damp right now to get the b.linen coat.  Now that I've got that going sufficiently, I can ease that back so the surface dries, and try and get something other than blue on top.  I think things are under control at the moment, if only just, and in a couple of weeks it will be ok to brush it down as by then the b.linen surface can be removed.  Probabably won't wash it off though as the brushings should take care of it.  We'll see.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 24, 2012, 12:04:37 PM
Hi,

It's now got a good b.linens rind.  There's also patches of mould along the sides.  Along one ridge is a dark brown, that looks like dirt, but I think it's just very dark linens or something.  The cheese is not soft there, and it doesn't have an off smell to it (beyond the offness that the linens has so it doesn't appear to be anything like rot.  I'll probably let this rind do its thing until the weekend, or the weekend after, then wash it off and see if we can get a mould rind going.  I think the linens have just got to the point where they will dominate the rind completely if not removed. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Alpkäserei on October 24, 2012, 12:33:29 PM
we get a brown dirt that will grow on our cheese if we let them do their thing and go wild. Looks kind of nasty really. And once it's well established, it will actually start creating piles of dust -the first time I saw it, it reminded me of wood-boring larva and the piles of sawdust they leave by their bore holes. But close inspection and study and so forth has revealed it is definitely not a bug, but some kind of mold or bacteria. I haven't a clue what it is though. I just know it shows up invariably whenever I let a cheese go wild (which I rarely do, I am a particular washer of my cheeses.)

I would suggest just to smear your mold around, not to scrape or wash anything off. I have done this in the past on a b.linen rind and it has worked for me. I have one right now that has a very frightening combination of molds growing on it that I did just this with, and it seems to be working well. (A cheese that had a few errors in the pressing, so I gave up on it for a while, but ultimately just decided to go with it)
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 24, 2012, 02:01:11 PM
Thanks.  I may at least try and wash around the brown dirt and see if I can get rid of that.  The mould that is on this cheese hasn't increased since I washed it last and I think the linens is out competing it.  But, a few 3% brine washes and maybe things will even out.  It's a bit undecided at the moment.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Alpkäserei on October 24, 2012, 02:55:01 PM
I washedmy crazy cheese with orange juice. Kind of experiment to see how it works out. I want to develop a good mold/fungus paste on the rind and also it needed some hydration, it has dried off and nothing was wanting to grow very fast aside from some very slow geo.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on October 24, 2012, 05:15:43 PM
Wow, I'm glad to notice some other creative (crazy?) folks wiling to risk.  Just walking through the woods up to the barn I was wondering about putting honey all over a cheese and using it to adhere leaves to create an interesting design.  Do you think that would work?  I can't remember what I've read about using honey on cheese......  and what type of cheese should I do it on?  I have to make cheese every few days to keep up with milk so I'm not worried about wastage.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Boofer on October 25, 2012, 01:23:06 AM
I was wondering about putting honey all over a cheese and using it to adhere leaves to create an interesting design.  Do you think that would work?
Check these:
-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 25, 2012, 12:24:59 PM
Gave this a wash with a 4% brine solution (4g salt in 96g water) to thin the linens a bit and to see if the brown dirt mould can be halted.  It didn't come off at all, but hopefully we can prevent it from spreading.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on October 30, 2012, 08:54:10 PM
I was wondering about putting honey all over a cheese and using it to adhere leaves to create an interesting design.  Do you think that would work?
Check these:
  • A warning ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,6197.msg44246.html#msg44246[/url])
  • Wild honey and sea salt ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,6327.msg45051.html#msg45051[/url])
-Boofer-


I did check those and did it anyway.  Here it is on day 1 and day 6.  I have done 2 olive oil "massages" and I'm hoping if I keep doing these that it'll be less hospitable to mold growth.  Or to the wild blues at least.  It's an experiment and you can see the spots where mold has tried to get a foothold.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on November 17, 2012, 02:33:26 AM
So pretty!!!!
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on November 17, 2012, 03:19:26 PM
Hi,

As I need to free up the ripening box this one is in, I've decided to vac. bag it.  The rind has dried out, or crusted, as you can see where it's "chipped a bit", which is curious because the box itself is filled with moisture every day.  However, the cheese only lost 332g since make day.  I bagged the first one I made, and it was fine.  The linens continued to flavour the cheese and all.  I've had to forgo on letting this develope a mould rind, but I don't think that was going to happen.  The linens seem to have formed enough of a protective layer.  I could wash them off, and such, but I'm happy with how this has gone so.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Boofer on November 18, 2012, 03:41:26 PM
That is strange that it would be so parched-looking with the condensation in the box. ???

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on November 19, 2012, 12:59:01 PM
Yah, it's weird.  The cheese is doing well, though.  No splitting like the last one, but then, it doesn't have that soft water-logged feel either.  Used a better milk this time (cream line) and the curds were so much better than I'm used to.  Should use it all the time.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Tomer1 on November 19, 2012, 03:34:01 PM
That crazy orange stuff looks like the sulferic-rotting meat smelling radioactive growth I once got on a failed Roquefort, I hope yours smells better :)
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Boofer on November 19, 2012, 05:06:36 PM
That crazy orange stuff looks like the sulferic-rotting meat smelling radioactive growth I once got on a failed Roquefort, I hope yours smells better :)
You certainly have a way with words, Tomer. :) Not something I'd want in my kitchen.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on November 20, 2012, 12:19:30 AM
That crazy orange stuff looks like the sulferic-rotting meat smelling radioactive growth I once got on a failed Roquefort, I hope yours smells better :)

I take it you must have got the unpleasant sulferic-rotting meat version?  Mine is the good kind so far ;)

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on February 15, 2013, 12:13:27 PM
Hi,

This one is still doing quite well.  The rind is a bit dry and crusty, but the aroma is really good.  It's down to 1174g, and 15.5 x 5.9 cm, for a density of 1.06g/cm3.  Pretty good result from 11 litres, as that's just over the expected 10% yield, but I'm pretty sure the milk containers hold more than the stated amount (at least, if I put in 2 litres based upon my measuring cup that's true - hmmm, must try weighing water - but I digress).  Anyway, this one is ready to cut anytime (it's 21 weeks tomorrow), though I've got some other cheese to finish up before I do.  So, it will get to somewhere between 5 and 6 months, which should be optimal. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Boofer on February 15, 2013, 07:14:13 PM
Looking good, Jeff! So many colors!

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on February 26, 2013, 10:43:57 PM
Ok,  so, tomorrow we're having friends over for supper.  My last cheese has been consumed, and the caerphilly won't be ready for another week or two.  So, the washed rind tomme, which is now 157 days (22 weeks + 3 days) has to be cut.  It's at 1158g, 15.5x5.9 cm, for a density of 1.04 g/cm3.

Now, I had to have a wee sample because when I cut into this it just felt so wonderfully smooth and creamy.  Not soft and runny, not dry and hard, but a good semi-hard feel to it.  The mouth feel is very smooth, it's moist but not wet, has a definate b.linens flavour but not too strong.  Ripened to the centre, the rind is not too thick, and basically,  I can't say enough good about this one.  It might have a slight bitterness, but hard to say, it was cold (didn't let it warm up) and it could just have been the attack of the b.linens.  Will see how it does once it warms up.  Even if it is a bit bitter, it's a good result.  Thanks to Pav for sharing this make procedure.  It is definitely worth trying out.  Two tommes up! :)

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: bbracken677 on February 27, 2013, 07:13:39 AM
Nice job Jeff!  A cheese for your successful cheesy adventure!

Salut!
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Boofer on February 27, 2013, 08:16:29 AM
That's beautiful, Jeff! I love the rind development. Paste does look nice and creamy. Good job, buddy. A cheese for your Tomme awesomeness. :D

And, yes, thanks Pav.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: CWREBEL on February 27, 2013, 10:20:57 AM
Absolutely awesome looking cheese Jeff!  I think you achieved what most strive for when developing a natural rind Tomme - looks textbook. Congrats for aging it out so long... couldn't have been easy, but it looks like you were rewarded. Have a cheese!
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on February 27, 2013, 01:13:37 PM
Thanks everyone.  It's nice when a plan comes together.  I was wondering if it had dried out because it was close to 6 months and never bagged or waxed, etc.  I've been worried that my cheeses would lose too much moisture when left for an extended period like this, but the result of this one tells me that doesn't have to happen.  That opens up the opportunity to age out some other cheeses in natural rinds, like cheddars or even a swiss (an area I haven't explored yet, but will try soon as I now have some PS culture). 

I've got a third one of these on the go now (only about 3 weeks old at the moment) and it's just going to develop a wild rind with no washing this time.  Should develop a completely different flavour.  Yum!

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Shazah on February 27, 2013, 02:02:35 PM
Hey Jeff, nice looking cheese.  You've inspired me to give this a try.

Did you go to Cheesefest yesterday?  We went along for the 5pm session and tasted some lovely cheeses but I was delighted when my bloke said that my Reblochon was better than anything he tasted there.  (Thanks Yoav) I'm not sure how he rates as a judge but it made me happy.

I have been wondering if there is any interest in Auckland for a gathering of cheeseheads with a view to entering some cheeses next year.  Will start a thread in the NZ page and see what comes of it.

Cheers
Sharon
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: linuxboy on February 27, 2013, 02:31:56 PM
Quote
I've been worried that my cheeses would lose too much moisture when left for an extended period like this,
If you are really worried, let the rind build up for at least 2-3 weeks (longer if possible), and then parakote with PVA. Will give you flavor while retaining more moisture.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on February 27, 2013, 03:43:13 PM
Hi Sharon,

No, didn't make Cheesefest.  My daughter had her violin lesson, and my son goes to bed around 7:00 ish.  There's a few NZ's on the board, and more than a couple from Auckland, so it may be possible to put a group together.  Might be fun.

And thanks for the suggestion linuxboy.  My concern comes mostly from not having really let a cheese sit out for 6 months unbagged or waxed.  Now that I've done one, and it's not a rock, I know my cave is acting as it should so my concerns have diminished.  Hmmm, just re-read parts of this thread and I see I did bag this for awhile.  Will have to recheck my notes on this one to see how long it was bagged.  - back and checked my notes, looks like it was bagged for about a month (Nov 18 - Oct 25).


Anyway, have shared this with people at work and they all give it a strongly positive rating!

- Jeff

P.S. The milk used in this was pasteurized and creamline, with about 4% fat and 3.1 or 3.3 g/100 of protein (silver top for you NZers)
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Boofer on February 28, 2013, 08:58:36 AM
then parakote with PVA.
Same as cream coating?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: linuxboy on February 28, 2013, 09:25:14 AM
Quote
cream coating
yes.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on February 28, 2013, 10:05:14 AM
Quote
cream coating
yes.

Is the PVA mixed with the cream coating or applied before?  Can you say more?
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: linuxboy on February 28, 2013, 11:31:16 AM
Most of the cream type of coatings are made from PVA or some analog. Most have natamycin added for mold control. You paint them on, let dry, call done. Useful not only for having a clean rind, also useful for rind management in moldy and mixed types, to slow down the mold and slow down moisture loss.
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Boofer on March 01, 2013, 09:55:10 AM
Got it. It has worked well for me. Matter-of-fact, I have a Beaufort (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10762.0.html) with a nicely developed rind at almost 8 weeks. I'll cream-coat it to preserve moisture and extend the affinage.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Tomer1 on March 02, 2013, 04:31:41 PM
Isnt the cream coating permeable to moisture? so a cheese could dry out if your looking at 6-12 months of aging, right?
Title: Re: My 2nd Tomme
Post by: Boofer on March 03, 2013, 02:55:27 PM
Yes, Tomer, slightly permeable. I think the cream coating does a good job of restricting moisture loss, not preventing it.

IMHO, it also allows the cheese to breathe...certainly better than waxing or vacuum-sealing. It also has natamycin which assists in rind protection. An all-around winner for rind maintenance. 8)

-Boofer-