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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Rennet Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: JeffHamm on November 17, 2012, 04:30:26 PM

Title: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 17, 2012, 04:30:26 PM
Hi,

Vanessa asked if I could make some Brie, so we could give some to a friend in trade for some homemade beer.  Well, that sounds good to me.  I've made camembert before, and brie is essentially the same make, just bigger molds.  So, I followed the 200 easy homemade cheese book, though I added 30 minutes ripening time as I find my ice cubes seem to need time to propegate for best results.  Anyway, I've filled two 1/2 brie molds (20 cm diameter internal, about 10 cm high).  These have bottoms, unlike open hoop cam moulds, so I'm assuming they will drain quite a bit more slowly. 

Anyway, each of these cheeses will require a ripening box to themselves (they sort of fill my boxes), so I had to vac bag a few of my current hard cheeses.  That's fine, except they all have various mould/linens for rinds.  A big wash of the boxes, followed by a sterilization wash, another rinse, and finally, I decided to drain the cheeses into the boxes (shown in the photo).  This way, spores from the PC that are in the whey will, hopefully, dominate the local flora over any left over from my cleaning attempts.  It will be interesting when it comes time to flip these.  I've got some cross stitch mats to use, as long as I don't clutz out, I should be fine.  No guarentees there will be further photos though!

Brie (from 200 homemade cheese) Sunday, Nov 18, 2012: Barm 996, 67% humidity

8 Litres Homebrand Standard
4 ice cubes meso (4 fd)
¼ tsp CalCl (50%)
5.54 ml Renco Rennet (65 IMCU)
Section of rind from existing brie or cam (mashed about in boiled/cooled water – remove chunks)

1) add culture and warm to 31 C (8:20 ; 31.2 C)
2) add mold solution
3) Ripen 30 minutes (8:20 - 8:50; 30.1 C) – I added a ripening time
4) add CaCl and then add rennet (8:54:30 C; 30.1)
5) floc time = 9:06:30 = 12 m 00 s 6x mulitiplier = 72 m 00 sec = cut time of 10:06:30
6) cut into 2.5 cm cubes
7) let heal (5 minutes in book; go for 15 10:13 - 10:28)
8) stir very gently 10 minutes (10:33 - 10:43) or until curd starts to shrink a bit
9) let settle
10) remove whey (to level of curd – didn’t settle much, no whey removed)
11) ladel curds into to two ½ brie molds (10:49-11:16)  Filled both moulds
12) settle 2 hours, then flip
13) settle 2 hours, flip
14) flip every couple hours, then leave to drain overnight
15) sprinkle the top of each cheese with 1 tsp salt flip salt other side (1 tsp as well)
16) put in the ripening box (on chopsticks and mat) and flip daily (remove whey)
17) should see mould in a week, on about day 12-14, wrap and leave in cheese fridge another week
18) after 1 more week (week 3 from make) move to cold fridge for 4-6 weeks
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 17, 2012, 09:08:51 PM
Flipped it twice now, without major distaster.  The mats I have are just wide enough for these molds, so very tricky.  The surface is a bit uneven as the mats are soft, and sitting up on the chopsticks the curds still sagged between them.  I thought they would hold it level, but not quite.  Still, the curds have settled quite a bit.  Next flip session shouldn't be so bad. I'll put the mats on a board.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: H-K-J on November 17, 2012, 09:16:59 PM
I didn't realize they are that moist of curd  :-\ they look grest :P
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 17, 2012, 11:22:14 PM
The curds are cut after a 6x floc, then stirred for about 10 minutes.  There's a bit of settling time, but really, not much to force out the whey.  Then, you just ladel the curds into the moulds, so a lot of whey gets scooped up in the process.  The curds will settle down to about 1/3 to 1/4 height.  They're down to about a 1/3 now.  I'll let them drain until after work tomorrow, and will salt them and then into the cave.  If all goes well, there will be white mould in 7 to 10 days. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: Shazah on November 17, 2012, 11:59:06 PM
Hi Jeff

Good luck with these.  They are really tricky to flip eh!  I ended up cutting my cross stitch matting into a slightly smaller circle and using a two step flip method which was so much easier in the end.  Up until that point I was thinking I would stick with Cams and not bother with all the anxiety of making the larger Brie.  I have mine ageing in the cold fridge with it due to be opened next weekend.  Depending on flavour and texture, I'll decide if I'm making them again.

I look forward to seeing your pics.
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: Tobiasrer on November 18, 2012, 12:09:43 AM
Would love to see the product so far.
Brie is one of the fewmold rippened cheeses I would consider making. The idea of molded cheese has never appealed to me, but i wanna try baked brie, But also having the WRONG molds is my biggest concern!
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on November 18, 2012, 01:36:21 AM
When you flip it do you have a base to turn it over onto? ie like a press follower...
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: Tiarella on November 18, 2012, 06:30:36 AM
Would love to see the product so far.
Brie is one of the fewmold rippened cheeses I would consider making. The idea of molded cheese has never appealed to me, but i wanna try baked brie, But also having the WRONG molds is my biggest concern!

The wrong mold has never been a problem for me.......except on a Shitake Mushroom Brie that has birch bark wrapped around it to hold it together.  That one has just started showing a little wild blue mold and I'm not quite sure what to do.  I posted a question but no one has answered yet.  I think this is only happening because of the Shitake mushroom crumbles and powder.  Otherwise the white PC mold will totally keep anything else from showing up.  You would probably have very good luck with Brie.  Hope you try it!   :)
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 18, 2012, 11:56:16 AM
Hi,

When the flip puts them back in the mould all is well.  Only the first time "upside down" was there a problem.  They were still very wet so had to sit up on the chopsticks to drain into the ripening boxes.  The next flip put them back in the mould.  Then, I was able to put the mat on the inside of the box lid, and put that over the mould, and flip.  This works a treat, and since the curds have drained quite a bit, the lids don't overflow and soak everything.  The curds have reduced to about 1/4 or so?  One of them has a crack, where the curds don't seem to have knitted together (probably an accident during one of the flips), but as it still has a few hours to go, I'm hoping they will fuse a bit.  The other seems fine so far. 

Anyway, these will go in the cave this evening (after salting) sitting on the lids with the main body of the box sitting on top like a dome.  This will make the daily flipping of them easier (I hope). 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: H-K-J on November 18, 2012, 12:29:05 PM
Hope that one knits together for you, it still looks really nice :P
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 18, 2012, 02:51:37 PM
Thanks, but I'm sure it will be all right.  If it doesn't heal, it will just mold over and form a long skinny piece.  That may ripen faster than the rest because it will come in from the sides more, but the bulk of the cheese will be fine. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 19, 2012, 01:04:19 PM
I salted both sides (1 tsp each face) last night and moved them to the cave.  Then flipped these this morning.  Still a lot of whey coming out, but not overflowing the lid, which is acting as the floor for easy cheese access.  The chopsticks overlaid with the mat are keeping the downside flat too, so that's good.  The crack seems to have healed a bit, so it's fusing somewhat.  Also, it doesn't go through to the other side, so it's not like a separate piece just yet.  Anyway, will have to work on the humidity levels, which could be tricky, but so far these look really promising.  It's been a long time since I've made a pc ripened cheese, apart from the semi-lactics which are a different beast, so hopefully I can get a decent result. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: Boofer on November 19, 2012, 05:24:08 PM
Hey, if this works out for you, I might give Brie a try. They look good so far.

Really, a 6x floc? Is that something you knew or read about or something you just winged?

I'm really curious to see how this proceeds. I've never done a Cam or a Brie.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: Tobiasrer on November 19, 2012, 05:27:50 PM
I found a PDF on a thread here some where that shows a floc mult for different styles and 6 sounds right from what I read on it. You want a nice moist creamy texture, so longer floc is my understanding?
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: bbracken677 on November 19, 2012, 07:32:24 PM
Yes... the longer flocc results in higher moisture as does cutting in larger curd pieces or not cutting at all (such as the traditional camembert method)...and normally a cheese like this will be formed immediately after cutting (with a rest) and not cooked or stirred or any of the other procedures for removing whey. Typically you leave the curds in the form until they have lost enough whey to be reduced to 1/3 it's original height.
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 20, 2012, 12:31:20 AM
Hi Boofer,

I found a thread awhile back that listed 5 to 6x floc for brie and cam, so I went with 6x.  Also has a fairly large cut (2.54 cm, or 1 inch cubes), and transfered after only 10 minutes stirring and a bit of settling.

So far it's looking ok.  This should end up in the cold fridge in a couple weeks.  We're taking a bit of time away around Christmas, so it has to be self sufficient by then!

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: Tiarella on November 20, 2012, 06:50:48 AM


So far it's looking ok.  This should end up in the cold fridge in a couple weeks.  We're taking a bit of time away around Christmas, so it has to be self sufficient by then!

- Jeff

Won't they be eaten by then?  Or at least they will be wrapped so should be safe.......I can never remember the fridge life of ripe Brie.  I hope you have a lovely time away......  Hope your cheeses don't get too lonely.  I know there are pet sitters, anyone had cheese sitters?????? ???
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 20, 2012, 11:34:11 AM
Hi Tiarella,

My understanding is around 3 weeks for mold development to complete, then wrapped and 4-6 weeks in the cold fridge.  So, should be ready in Jan.  Or, we'll come back to a very messy fridge!

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 21, 2012, 11:32:29 AM
Still very wet in the boxes, but getting there.  My flipping technique is not as good as I had hoped, and there are a few cracks/splits formed but so far, they are still two large flat disks.  I've not had cell division yet.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: Boofer on November 21, 2012, 04:48:23 PM
Still very wet in the boxes, but getting there.  My flipping technique is not as good as I had hoped, and there are a few cracks/splits formed but so far, they are still two large flat disks.  I've not had cell division yet.

- Jeff
Brie mytosis?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 24, 2012, 12:23:23 PM
Yah!  First sign of mould on one of these.  Didn't see any on the other yet, but it's still a bit wetter.  Have worked out a system for flipping that doesn't crack the cheese so much.  Seems to be working.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 25, 2012, 11:44:06 PM
Mold spotted on the 2nd of the two wheels.  This wheel, however, also has some liquid bits, so it will be interesting to see how it ripens. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: Boofer on November 26, 2012, 08:52:35 AM
Looks really good, Jeff.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 26, 2012, 12:59:35 PM
Thanks Boofer.  I'm not sure though.  They seem to have a bit of liquid, so I might have to work on drying them out a wee bit.  Will have to work on a few things.  They have thinned right out.  As we're going to be away during the ripening phase, I'm hoping they don't over ripen!

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 28, 2012, 12:03:41 PM
I've determined that the liquid is from over active geo, so I salted the areas where it was forming last night.  That seems to have helped, so I've given both cheeses another sprinkle of salt.   Good mold development on the sides (which are only about 1 cm), but nothing much yet on either face.  I think the geo was too much.  I'm hoping this does it and we get pc on the face soon.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: Tobiasrer on November 28, 2012, 12:30:55 PM
Best of luck! Hope the salting helps you get through the holidays safe and sound!

I dont think traveling with aging brie in your suitcase is the best plan!  :o
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 29, 2012, 12:27:24 AM
Salting seems to have helped.  The liquifying cheese seems to have stopped.  Now, if the pc will just cooperate and take over the flats then we're all set.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: Tiarella on November 29, 2012, 06:30:23 AM
Jeff, do share your flipping technique please.  (wow, that Canberra read in another way as in, "share your beeping technique!"  ;D). But seriously, I can't imagine how to do that with such a large diameter thin cheese.  My Tellagio isn't even that thin and I managed to get two tiny cracks in it while handling it for initial weigh in. 

Are you going to set up a wireless remote viewing camera to keep an eye on it while you're gone?   ;)
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 29, 2012, 11:31:28 AM
Hi Tarella,

The cheeses are laying on some large hole needle point mats.  To flip them, I lift the mat onto a dinner plate.  Then, I place a second mat on top and a 2nd plate, and flip the plates.  Given the cheeses are so thin, this works fine.  I don't think you could do it if they were wider and the plates would squish the cheese.

Camera ... hmmm ... good idea. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: bbracken677 on November 29, 2012, 11:41:05 AM
That's how I flip my cams, but with 2 cutting boards...I flip 3 at a time that way.
The key is flip as quick as possible lol
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: Tiarella on November 29, 2012, 11:53:57 AM
Hi Tarella,

The cheeses are laying on some large hole needle point mats.  To flip them, I lift the mat onto a dinner plate.  Then, I place a second mat on top and a 2nd plate, and flip the plates.  Given the cheeses are so thin, this works fine.  I don't think you could do it if they were wider and the plates would squish the cheese.

That's what I do but your cheese looks much wider than mine so I thought you must have super special trick.  How big is your Brie?
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 29, 2012, 01:14:02 PM
The mould it was made in was 20 cm in diameter, but they've expanded since then.  Hmmm, next time I try this I'll keep them in the mould a bit longer to see if they will firm up more.  Probably about 22-23 cm across maybe?

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on December 13, 2012, 07:52:39 PM
Well, these are now wrapped and in the cold fridge.  Forgot to get photos.  The faces are fairly well covered on one side of both cheeses, and the other is patchy.  Some blue spots have formed, but I'm hoping the PC will over power it (though a touch of blue wouldn't be a bad thing).  Anyway, will be curious to see how these turn out.  I'm fearful that they will just develop slip skin and over do it, but there is always hope.

Will post a photo on the unwrapping around Jan 4th or 5th.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: bbracken677 on December 13, 2012, 08:02:55 PM
Why wrap before pc is fully developed?
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on December 15, 2012, 12:11:12 PM
Because we flew out to Canada that day.  It's developed enough, and will continue to grow (slowly) while in the cold fridge.  The geo is more or less under control, but was starting to play up again, so lowering the temperature will (fingers crossed) help deal with that.  These may not turn out all that well, but we'll see.  I have to work on my bloomy cheese technique.  I've been focusing on hard and semi-hard cheeses.  I think these needed more draining, and could have spent another day in the moulds to help firm up their shape, etc.  Also, I needed to get onto the over active geo sooner, and my early flipping technique was poor and resulted in some splits that almost cut one of them into 3 parts (and these have not healed properly, though at one point I thought they were).  Still, they may turn out to taste ok, as the curd samples that have come away through misadventure so far has been nice and promising.  So, now it's hoping the last stretch in the cold fridge goes well.  Will know when we try them early in the new year. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: bbracken677 on December 15, 2012, 05:40:01 PM
Makes perfect sense!  I figured there was a reason.    ^-^
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on December 17, 2012, 08:43:54 AM
:)  We made it to Nova Scotia last night.  Today, there is a gentle snow falling.  Very nice.  Genesta (my daughter) is very pleased to see the snow.  Vanessa and I are just very pleased to see the end of the airports for awhile. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: bbracken677 on December 17, 2012, 09:30:36 AM
Traveling is such a pain these days...but the destination makes it all worthwhile.    :)

Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on January 03, 2013, 01:15:22 PM
Well, we're back in NZ now.  Just checked the two Bries, and as feared, two runny messes.  Oh well, I can't say I'm too surprised.  The fluid tasted ok, no amonia, but not what I was going for.  Also, two of the cheeses I vac sealed just sweated in the bags and are now coated in b.linens, in a very thick pasty way.  One was a wensleydale, and the other was a butterkase.  Hopefully the cheeses didn't get too wet and go off.  Will find out once I get them dried out a bit.  Ah, the joys of travel (oh, by the way, it is possible to watch Brave, Prometheus, and all 3 Lord of The Rings films during the flight Vancouver to Auckland.  Guess how I know?

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: Tiarella on January 03, 2013, 09:11:23 PM
Hmmm, sorry you were right about this!  Can you use it for a cheese dipping sauce or in a tart?  Or over potatoes?  I wonder if the strains of Geo and PC created this outcome and if different strains would have created a stabilized paste that could withstand your travel (and dizzying amounts of movie watching) plans.  not like we can all have all the strains just waiting in our freezers for us though.  good luck on the next make!
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on January 03, 2013, 09:14:57 PM
What temperature did you leave it at? Maybe a lower temp to really slow it down would have helped.
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on January 03, 2013, 09:36:48 PM
I think the main problem was the cheese didn't drain fully, and the geo took off right at the start.  The moulds were harvested from a bought cheese, which I've had success with in the past.   Anyway, I had moved them in to our regular fridge, but I didn't take the temp.  Probably around 4 C though.  I pitched these.  There was just too much stuff to do upon our return that trying to salvage some cheese juice seemed to rank low on my priority list (the lack of sleep also helped shift that into the too hard basket). :)

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on January 04, 2013, 12:53:01 AM
(the lack of sleep also helped shift that into the too hard basket). :)

- Jeff
LOL
Been there done that   O0
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: Boofer on January 04, 2013, 08:55:39 AM
My condolences, Jeff. I have experienced that same liquidy result in my second Taleggio attempt (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,8395.msg61004.html#msg61004). Little comfort for you, but I know how disappointing it is. :(

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: H-K-J on January 04, 2013, 02:14:22 PM
that does suck Jeff. loosing the time and money/milk etc. brings you down :'(
As they say never give up,never surrender (actually I don't remember who said that ;))
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on January 04, 2013, 04:48:55 PM
Thanks all.  I feared this was going to happen, though hoped it would not.  Oh well, I think the problem was right from the start, and it needed to drain better, and perhaps a bit longer in the pot to expell a bit more whey would help.  I might work on pre-draining a bit as well, to remove most of the excess whey before molding.  I don't make a lot of mold ripened cheeses, and they are a different beast.  Will take a bit to get the feel for what the curds should be like for each step, but I'll get there despite myself. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My first Brie
Post by: bbracken677 on January 05, 2013, 08:27:17 PM
Thats the spirit! And a great attitude for cheesemaking, I might add....