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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cheddared (Normally Stacked & Milled) => Topic started by: AndreasMergner on December 29, 2012, 08:31:32 AM

Title: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on December 29, 2012, 08:31:32 AM
I made this last night and pulled it out of the press this morning.

4 gal P/H whole milk
MA11
1/4 tab veg rennet
68 g salt

I used scasnerkay's recipe from here http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10234.msg76176.html#msg76176 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10234.msg76176.html#msg76176)
I also looked at JeffHamm's recipe since they both had pH targets I could use with my new pH meter.  Scasnerkay's looked like it would end up a little moister, so I went with it.

4:50 Start of heat  T 60, pH 6.74
5:02 Sprinkle culture T 86
6:35 Add rennet pH 6.52
6:50 floc=15 x 3.5 = 53 minutes
7:43 cut curd to 3/8" pH 6.24
7:58 begin heating
8:02 temp reached (a little too fast) T 93 (overshot 91 degree target)
8:42 done cooking/stirring pH 5.88;  Drained in cheese cloth and pressed it lightly with hand
8:54 cut to 1" thick slices and stacked
9:08 flipped
9:19 This is where I realized that instead of warming the pot for just a minute on the burner, I had left it on for 11 minutes.  Grrr!  The cheese probably got to 120 degrees on the bottom.  Oh well, live and learn.  I cooled it in water and then milled it.
9:30 Put in 8" diameter mold and pressed at 20 lbs
10:00 Pressed at 50 lbs
10:40 Pressed at 180 lbs
11:45 Pressed at 360 lbs
08:30 Removed from press, pH of whey 5.03

Final pH target is 5.5, I believe.  I'm not sure if a final pH of 5.03 is bad or what I could have done differently so that it would be closer to the target...?

(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/377877_4562349169526_1986813628_n.jpg)

Knit is not too great or too horrible.  My final pressing PSI was ~7 PSI.  I could put more weight on my press next time or try to keep it warmer.  I'm not sure if I could ramp up the pressing weight faster...?  Luckily, this only has to survive 3 weeks or so of aging so not too worried about surface cracks and I can always vac bag it.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: bbracken677 on December 29, 2012, 09:17:22 AM
It may be a bit low, but since it is a short aged cheese it probably will not have as much an effect as if you were going to age it out a few months. Jeff usually cuts into this at 3 weeks.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on December 29, 2012, 09:36:07 AM
What do I need to do to get a higher final pH next time?  Work faster?  Seems like all of the times are mapped out in the recipe.  Maybe it was because it got too hot in the pot when I made my big mess up?
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: bbracken677 on December 29, 2012, 11:02:48 AM
If you have a pH meter, you will want to salt the curds at 5.4 or even perhaps a bit higher...I am thinking my next make I will be salting around 5.6 just to see the result.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: george (MaryJ) on December 30, 2012, 06:17:43 AM
I don't use a pH meter, probably never will, but isn't it a .1 drop that you're looking for after adding culture, and that's when you add the rennet?  'Cause it looks like you had a .22 drop before you added rennet, I'm wondering if that may have been just enough to speed everything else up for you.

If I'm wrong about the .1, just ignore me. ;)
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on December 30, 2012, 09:08:52 AM
I was using the "recipe" from here: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10234.msg76176.html#msg76176 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10234.msg76176.html#msg76176)

...and it is confirmed with this excellent pdf in the library: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9385.0.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9385.0.html)

bbracken: I was wondering if salt stopped the acid production or not. I though acid production could occur while pressing too.  I'm sure it stops after the moisture content drops to a certain point, but salting has got to greatly reduce the rate.  That pdf above states a milling (salting) pH of 5.7-5.8 for Caerphilly.

Should I call you Mary, Mary J or George??  :)  Maybe .1 pH drop is the way to go?  I don't know.  Probably makes more sense using a pH drop than going for a specific target pH.  That way the pH of the milk at the start won't cause an abnormally short or long ripening time for the LA bacteria.  If I had gone for a .1 drop, I would have shortened the time to pressing by about 50 minutes and I probably would have made my pH target of 5.5.

Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: bbracken677 on December 30, 2012, 09:46:00 AM

bbracken: I was wondering if salt stopped the acid production or not. I though acid production could occur while pressing too.  I'm sure it stops after the moisture content drops to a certain point, but salting has got to greatly reduce the rate.  That pdf above states a milling (salting) pH of 5.7-5.8 for Caerphilly.


I was thinking of a different cheese....I recently made a parmesan that called for brining at 5.4. 

I cut open one of my more recent caerphillys yesterday and it was fine...no bitterness but also, surprisingly, I could not taste any salt and I was expecting a slight saltiness. I think next time I will up the dose of salt to get a slight salt bite.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: H-K-J on December 30, 2012, 10:42:02 AM
BB, Just let it sit around for awhile I bagged 1/2 of mine and had to reopen so I could have some of it after a few more days (gave away the first half)
the wife made melted cheese sandwich out of it and it was absolutely wonderful MMmmmMmmmm :P
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: bbracken677 on December 30, 2012, 11:36:52 AM
I think I will age half out further.....the reason I was surprised about the lack of saltiness was the amount of salt used in Jeff's recipe seemed excessive at the time and I expected a salty tasting cheese.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: linuxboy on December 30, 2012, 11:52:57 AM
.2 delta to rennet is a little high for this cheese. rest looks OK. You missed the final because of the extended ripening, threw off the ph curve w timing of cut and drain
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: H-K-J on December 30, 2012, 12:00:47 PM
I think I will age half out further.....the reason I was surprised about the lack of saltiness was the amount of salt used in Jeff's recipe seemed excessive at the time and I expected a salty tasting cheese.
I do agree with that, my wife thought I was nuts using the salt I had, after tasting and grilling with it she also believes I should have used as much as the recipe called for (even a little more :o)
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on December 30, 2012, 02:16:51 PM
LB: You are a CHEESE GOD.  ;)  Is there a better source of info on how I should be using pH meter with cheeses?  I have this great tool, but I don't know how to use it to my best advantage.  I only have Debby's Floc/pH/pressing pdf to go by and I searched for recipes on the forum with pH. 

HKJ, BB: I think I'm following you two with the Stilton and the Caerphilly.  What other cheeses should I be doing??  :)  Mind you my wife thinks I'm crazy to have 16 lbs of cheese aging....

My Caerphilly seemed a bit salty, but I like salty.  I have some Gouda I made (that is really nothing like Gouda) and it is under salted.  It doesn't taste good on its own because of it.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: Al Lewis on December 30, 2012, 02:31:42 PM
Wait til you hit 34 pounds, and counting, and see what she thinks of you. LOL
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on December 30, 2012, 02:49:28 PM
We just don't eat cheese that quickly.  A pound of cheese probably lasts a month for us!  I think with cheese in reserve I'll be cooking with more cheese, and it will be nice to age some of these out longer anyway so I'm not exactly worried.  Still, this is just one of the crazy hobbies I have so she has pretty good reason to think I'm nuts.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: Al Lewis on December 30, 2012, 02:59:02 PM
Don't worry, if your friends are anything like mine you'll get plenty of requests for cheese.  For some reason they think because you made it it should be free. LOL
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: bbracken677 on December 30, 2012, 03:00:44 PM

HKJ, BB: I think I'm following you two with the Stilton and the Caerphilly.  What other cheeses should I be doing??  :)  Mind you my wife thinks I'm crazy to have 16 lbs of cheese aging....


I would suggest diving into the cheddar process   :)  One of my favorite cheeses to make.  You might also look into a Lancashire, which I understand is a quick aging cheese....also, since you have made a gouda, a colby is a nice compliment.

Making camemberts are also pretty cool...love the process   :)
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: Al Lewis on December 30, 2012, 03:18:50 PM
If he like blues BB he might try a cambozola.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on December 31, 2012, 02:18:49 AM
I've made Camembert once and it was fun.  I will likely make it again soon since it ages quickly.  Cambozola would be a good choice too, but with 4 lbs of Stilton, I think I will be all set with a blue type for a while.  ;)  ....especially since I am the only one in the house that will eat it. 

I'd like to have a Parm aging in my cave for a year getting ready for me.  HKJ, I wouldn't be opposed to Cheddar, but it is readily available and not that expensive ($7/lb) for a good one....a great one costs >$20/lb though.  I think I might prefer something I can't get or is at least expensive to offset the work involved making the cheese.  Reblochon might be a choice, but not sure how many washed rind cheeses I want going at once.  That goes for Raclette too, but I really like it.  I'm just not sure I want to try it right away with two failed makes so far.  I'd like something with low maintenance or vac bag-ability.  Also want to make a Tomme and Gruyere some day.  Too many cheeses!
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: george (MaryJ) on December 31, 2012, 05:43:30 AM
Wait til you hit 34 pounds, and counting, and see what she thinks of you. LOL
Or 72-ish pounds.  (That all got et a long time ago.)

Andreas, I answer to all of those things, but don't call me Shirley.   ;)

I'm still kind of shocked that I was right about something involving pH.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on January 06, 2013, 07:16:37 PM
Mary, that is a lot of cheese.  Now I can understand why you want me to come over and help you eat it!  ;)

So, this is my Caerphilly right now.

(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/13788_4610353929615_1597543467_n.jpg)

I think it looks pretty good, but I've had to brush off a very small amount of blue mold the last three days.  I have a Stilton going at the same time.  Unfortunately I have to go out of town for 10 days on Wednesday.  Fortunately I have a cheese sitter!  I'm wondering if I should just vac bag this anyway (to ease the work of the cheese sitter) or will it benefit significantly by being out of the vac bag?  It will only be about 10 days old on Wednesday.  Thanks!
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 06, 2013, 08:18:48 PM
Whenever I have Stilton in the cave with other cheeses that aren't waxed I cover it with a tupperware cake lid to keep the molds from spreading.  Seems to help.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on January 06, 2013, 08:39:21 PM
Stilton is not even in the cave yet!
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: Tiarella on January 07, 2013, 06:44:09 AM
Just keep brushing the mold off the Caerphilly and it'll be fine!   :D. Nice looking cheese. 

About what to make next may I suggest checking out washed curd cheeses and doing a natural alpine rind such as Alp suggests and provided a long treatise upon?  I have been loving washed curd cheeses because I can add ale to the curd washing process and it's fun, smells like heaven and makes a nice cheese.  What's not to like??

I use the book by Gianaclis Caldwell for my recipe and do her "same temp washed curd" cheese.  There's just something I really like about this cheese and there's quite a few aging options like any cheese. 

Do keep posting with photos.  I love seeing what others are doing.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on January 07, 2013, 07:49:09 AM
Raclette is a washed curd, washed rind cheese. I have attempted it twice unsuccessfully. I would be willing to try it once again since it is one of my favorites. I think I am starting to get the hang of washed rind cheeses.  Also it is a social cheese so I could have a party to enlist others to help us eat it.

The brushing is working great for this cheese. If it can survive another two weeks and the low ph is ok and I didn't make too dry a curd, I might have a good cheese. :) I will not be the one brushing it so hopefully it stays easy!
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 07, 2013, 01:33:30 PM
Raclette is a washed curd, washed rind cheese. I have attempted it twice unsuccessfully. I would be willing to try it once again since it is one of my favorites. I think I am starting to get the hang of washed rind cheeses.  Also it is a social cheese so I could have a party to enlist others to help us eat it.

The brushing is working great for this cheese. If it can survive another two weeks and the low ph is ok and I didn't make too dry a curd, I might have a good cheese. :) I will not be the one brushing it so hopefully it stays easy!

Have to try this as well.  Bought the wife a raclette a few years ago for parties and it's never been out of the box.  Maybe if I made the cheese she would have to use it. LOL
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on January 07, 2013, 01:51:04 PM
It is so good if you have decent Raclette.  It will stink up the house for a couple days, but it is worth it.  ;)  You can use the oven broiler too, but a Raclette grill is much more social.  My wife's two favorite cheeses were white American and mozz before I met her...but now I think Raclette is! 
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 07, 2013, 01:55:59 PM
Yeah, mine's a gadget freak and couldn't live without one of these things.  Like I said though, never been out of the box.  Maybe when my Swiss is done we could try that in it.  Sure wouldn't want to dirty one of the 4 fondue pots she had to have. LOL
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on January 08, 2013, 12:17:14 PM
Ok, another question: my knit is not so great and I have some small cracks where blue mold is sprouting up. Brushing doesn't get it all out of the cracks. Can I put butter or lard on the cheese to fill those cracks? I figure that cheddar can be wrapped with lard and cheesecloth.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: linuxboy on January 08, 2013, 12:30:12 PM
If you fill cracks right away post press, that will work. Once mold is in there, really tough to get it out.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on January 08, 2013, 02:29:14 PM
Thanks LB!  You are so very appreciated!   I will do that post press if I have the issue again...which is likely.

I ended up drying the rind a bit by leaving it out a few hours and flipping it a few times.  I still don't have a good feel for how wet/dry a rind is supposed to be.  I hear slightly damp, but not wet, but then it seems like the rind doesn't ever get hard or even firm. 

I then put some bacon grease/lard over the whole cheese because I have so many cracks and only maybe 10 places with a speck of blue mold.  I don't want a thousand specks of blue mold.  I then smeared on some very fine salt which now held on/incorporated with the lard. 

Did I do the right thing?  I have no idea.   :-\  I just know that I tomorrow will be leaving this cheese for 10 days with my neighbor and she knows less about cheese making than I do and I want her to have as few issues as possible. 
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: linuxboy on January 08, 2013, 02:49:13 PM
If you are going au naturale with the rind, it is imperative that it is protected. Alpkaserei posted about this, and if I can summarize again one of my posts from a few years ago. Here's what you need to focus on for rind management:
-
To protect the rind, you must focus on the physical barrier that you can create between the outer world and the inner cheese (that'd be a great book title: finding your inner cheese). To create this barrier, here's the comprehensive list of options:

How you manage the cheese after press is up to you. For mold-only styles (meaning candidum and geo), they coat so heavily, that nooks and crannies and cracks are not an issue. But whenever you get into mixed variations where you start with naked cheese, or have ambient flora that are undesirable, inclusions are not that great. If ambient mold flora are tasty, mold in inclusions can be amazing (see british cheddar types with blue infections).

For anyone starting out, I would start with one of the easier rind management options (wax, bag, straight bloomy, etc) than trying to manage anything morge-like.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: margaretsmall on January 08, 2013, 03:03:47 PM
Great summary LB, thank you. Cheese to you.
Margaret
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on January 08, 2013, 06:07:22 PM
LB: amazing.  You should write a book....unless there is a book out there already that explains some of the how and why as opposed to just recipes....? 

I was considering just vac bagging it, but supposedly I would get more flavor from a natural type rind...?  Do you have any insight on that for me?  :)
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: Boofer on January 09, 2013, 08:59:14 AM
Thank you, Pav. Another excellent addition to my Process folder in my Cheese directory.

I hope you don't mind. I grabbed it and plunked it into a Word document for easy access. :)

How is your book coming along?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: linuxboy on January 09, 2013, 12:47:27 PM
There are some better books out there now that are more accessible. Gianaclis did a decent job with her latest one, although on the really technical answers to whys, some key considerations are not examined in great depth. There are some decent books in French, too. But overall, it's hard to find good information that is spot on and clear. There's also a lack of consensus in important aspects of cheese, such as merchandising.

I'm writing a page a day, only have a half hour for writing most mornings. It's slow work, slowest book I've ever written.

I am doing something else to facilitate clear authoritative info this year. Working with ACS on the Body of Knowledge project so we have peer-vetted, authoritative guidance on hundreds of topics, plus two retailer-oriented guides on best practices. That should start coming online in 3-5 months. There's a lot of stuff happening behind the scenes in the industry right now to progress with information maturity.

Quote
I was considering just vac bagging it, but supposedly I would get more flavor from a natural type rind...?  Do you have any insight on that for me?  :)
Well, yes, a natural rind will give you more flavor. Not sure what your question is. They're different rind approaches and make for very different cheeses. Are you asking which one to choose? Up to you, it depends on what you want. Possible to make excellent cheese both ways.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on January 19, 2013, 07:00:08 PM
Will be looking forward to hearing more about the online info as it comes out. 

Thanks for the answer on the natural rind vs vac bag.  I guess my question was how the tastes were different.  Maybe I should try making a wheel, cutting it in half and bagging only one. 

I cut into the Caerphilly tonight since I just got home.

(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/265135_4677815336108_1434035770_n.jpg)

Well, it was not bad as a table cheese, but not great either.  It has a very slight lingering bitterness.  It also doesn't taste as salty and as acidic as some were describing it.  It melts well.  I give it about a 6/10 overall right now.  I took out 1/6th of it and the rest is vag bagged and will age out at least until this small piece is eaten. 

I am using rennet tablets that I have read can cause bitterness if aged too long.  Not sure if that is part of my problem or not...?
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: bbracken677 on January 19, 2013, 07:49:56 PM
Nice looking cheese though! 

And yeah...I noticed a difference once I switched to liquid rennet. Using the flocculation method you can also control and standardize your rennet quantity so that there is no chance you are using too much...highly recommended.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on January 19, 2013, 07:57:23 PM
I'll have to go to liquid rennet then.  I have a couple of vegetarian friends who were interested in cheese, but I would rather it taste good to me.  I'll have to order some along with a few other things.

I have been using the floc method.  I already cut down to 1/4 of a tablet for a 4 gallon batch to get 10-15 minutes floc time. 
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: sofusryge on January 20, 2013, 03:52:31 AM
If you age it out 3-4 weeks more, the taste will improve. My first Caerphilly did have a slight bitterness in the aftertaste at the 4 weeks mark, but it diminished in the half wheel that i re-waxed and aged for another month. I've got a couple of Caerphillys aging in the cave at the moment, i will age these at least 6 weeks before cutting into them.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: JeffHamm on January 20, 2013, 11:31:14 AM
Hi Andreas,

You can get liquid rennet that is vegetarian as well.

- Jeff
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on January 21, 2013, 06:03:08 AM
I look forward to trying it again in a few weeks. I'm sure it will improve, but wonder how much. Only time will tell! We have a party and I will be putting a small piece of this out. I'm always curious to hear what others think.

I'll have to look into the liquid veg rennet.  So, it is the tablet itself that gives the bitterness - interesting.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: george (MaryJ) on January 21, 2013, 06:54:09 AM
No, the liquid veggie rennet can cause bitterness too.  Actually, I believe it's more like the veggie has a higher likelihood of doing it (been a while since I read those threads here - somewhere there is an excellent (no surprise!) post by LB about it) - and most especially if you use too much.
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: JeffHamm on January 21, 2013, 11:27:04 AM
I believe all rennet, animal or vegetable, can, if used in excess, lead to bitterness.  The powdered tablets are just more variable, and harder to control the amounts, so excess is easier to achieve.  Also, too much starter culture can result in bitterness as well.  Check out the floc method (search the board, there are lots of explanations for it).  One of the benefits of using it is that it will get you to the point where you know you aren't using too much rennet (a floc point of 10-15 minutes is good, really fast would mean too much - really fast with an amount of rennet that normally is sweet probably indicates too much culture, etc).

- Jeff
Title: Re: First Caerphilly, final pH too low?
Post by: AndreasMergner on January 25, 2013, 01:41:17 PM
This cheese had a floc time of 15 minutes, so excess rennet is not the issue.   I may have put too much starter culture in as I, errr, don't measure it.  Ahem.  Mind you, it is a very small amount sprinkled on the top, but next cheese I will do that differently.