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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Semi-Hard "Sweet" Washed Curd => Topic started by: linuxboy on June 14, 2009, 01:17:41 AM

Title: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on June 14, 2009, 01:17:41 AM
This is for a classic tomme style cheese using cow or goat or sheep milk or a blend.


To help with natural rind development, you can use Micodore, Mycoderm, Geo, b linens, Micrococci, etc or a complex surface culture mix like PLA from Danisco. I like to follow a similar rind maintenance schedule as with gruyere and other natural rind cheeses: wipe/scrub down every day for 3 days, every other day for 4-5 days, then twice a week for 1-2 weeks, and then weekly and as needed maintenance. Washing initially helps to introduce culture and prepare the rind, then is used for control.

This cheese should have a relatively high (relative to other meso cheeses, similar to alpine styles) mineral content, meaning that calcium phosphate will not be degraded, and whey drain pH will be high (6.3+). This results in the curd sticking to each other and matting quickly. If you settle under whey too long, you will have a wheel already formed. Suggestion is to use a pot with the same diameter as the mold so you can plop it right in to the mold.

For a washed curd tomme, follow the process through cutting, healing, but raise heat much more slowly for the first 15 mins. Target 92F, and stir gently for those 15 mins. The whey should separate enough to where you can draw off enough whey to equal 1/3 of the total milk amount. Before you draw it off, heat a volume of water that is 1/3 of the milk amount to 130F. Drain off the whey and add the heated water in two stages. Add the first half and stir gently for 5-10 mins until the curd firms up a little more. Then add the second half. Your final temp should be the same as with a normal tomme, right around 100F. Do not heat to the high end of mesophilic (105). You do not want acid production to be that fast. If concerned about temp, add the heated water in three stages so you hit 100F. Then stir the curds until they are the right texture, as noted above in the list.

I wrote up a more detailed explanation here http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49:basic-tomme-howto&catid=43:moderate-cook-temp&Itemid=66 (http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49:basic-tomme-howto&catid=43:moderate-cook-temp&Itemid=66)

I am working on a detailed howto for different rind treatments. If anyone is having troubles please PM or e-mail me and I'll try to help.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: FRANCOIS on June 14, 2009, 02:53:56 PM
Just a suggestion....to my taste I have always preferred a washed curd tomme.  It's less acidic, more plastic bodied and I have always found it to bring out the nuttiness of the milk.  To wash you simply remove 1/3 of the whey before heating the curd to 100F and replace that whey with 135F water (raising total temp to about 100F).  The rest of the recipe is the same.  I'm thrilled to see someone else using floculation, I have had heated ebates in the "industry" about this.  Automation and large scale production seems intent on making everything set times, but with varaible milk supply (like here in NZ) it's impossible to do that and get consistent result.  With that said 3 is a great multiplier for Tomme, most of the time.  If your wheels can't hold their shape cut the multiplier in half and go from there.  If you make the cheese often you can try and extend the multiplier and see how far you can go to get the ideal mositure content of the curd.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on June 14, 2009, 06:35:53 PM
Some great ideas. Thanks!

As another option, I also like this cheese with a washed rind. For example, a wash made from a malty beer adds a tasty dimension and contributes yeast to the rind microflora. Or add a nutty ale in with the curds during the make.

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Missy Greene on December 28, 2009, 08:11:26 PM
Hi Folks,
 I'm new on the site..wondering how yur Tommes came out.  I am just now making my first goat milk tomme. Would love to hear your results.
Thanks, Missy
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on January 24, 2010, 12:32:33 PM
Thanks Linuxboy and Francois, I have been having hard time figuring out Peter Dixon's cryptic recipes and the missing steps and quantities in Jim Wallace's step-by-step instruction for Tomme Au Marc (I was going to do that, minus the Marc part). It's good to finally find a basic and clear formula for Tomme. I am going to do this today with the curd washing suggestion.

- How do you age it after brining? Just put it in the cave (in my case, a 55F humid wine refrigerator) , or do you let it dry on a board for 3-5 days?
- How do you wash it with Ale? Do you just brush the surface with it and dry it? When do you do that? How many times and in what intervals?
- When do you rub with oil? Should I re-oil it after each Ale wash?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: FRANCOIS on January 24, 2010, 01:38:40 PM
For oiled and beer washed rinds, it's important to get a firm clean rind on the cheese before starting treatments.  If you apply either too early to a low pH rind that still has free moisture you risk yeast problems on the rind.

I would dry the cheese for a few days at 60-70% RH and no more than 60F if you can.  Be careful not to crack the rind by leaving it in too long or in too low RH.

Then you can oil the rind.  Just wipe on the first coat.  I used to reapply when the rind was noticeably drier.

For beer, there are many ways to do it, but a rind washed with beer is simply just wiping it down with a beer soaked rag.  My aging regimen is 1x daily for 1 week, then every other day for two weeks, then every 3 days 3 weeks then weekly after that, or as needed to keep molds down.

You can also bath the cheese in beer (be sure to add CaCl and salt), dry it  then vacuum bag it.  This is how drunken goat is made.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on January 24, 2010, 05:15:57 PM
Thanks Francois, as always very helpful.  On my way to making this cheese now!
As far as bathing the cheese in beer - I assume this would be done after the rind has formed for the first few days and then I dry it again. Vacuum packing would surely mean limited growth of mold and no beer or brine wiping or salt rubbing. I also assume that after 2-3 months i will have to open the vacuum and dry the cheese further for a few days before ready to eat - am I correct?

Not related to the above; Right now the only Mesophilic I have left here is the mystery Meso of New England Cheesemaking which they call Mesophilic (DS) C101 - I hope it's as good as the MA4000, MA4001 and MA4002. (Contents: s.lactis, s.cremoris, maltodextrin. I have had good results using it with farmhouse Cheddars). I have Flora Danica but it seems very wrong for this cheese.  My other option is to add Choozit MD89 which I have - it will give me some eye formation but maybe will result in over-buttery cheese? Any preference or opinion?

Lastly, something that have been "bothering" me for a while (see my post about pH meters earlier today). How do I measure the pH level of harder cheese? My Henna Checker (seems like everyone's favorite around here) is made to dip 1" in liquids - How do you do it?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: FRANCOIS on January 24, 2010, 05:32:32 PM
The bathed cheese is just that...you let the cheese float in the solution for 3-5 days (or more if you are looking for robust flavor and are willing to gamble with your rind) after an initial rind has formed.  After that you dry it and bag it.  let it age 3-4 months then eat.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on January 24, 2010, 06:43:45 PM
Thanks. Yes, I suppose though I need to let it dry nicely between beer and vacuum.

Any idea about my mesophilic option and my pH testing question?

By the way, I need to thank you for turning me into flocculation timing a few times ago. Much better!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: FRANCOIS on January 24, 2010, 07:20:08 PM
LL and LC should be comparable to the MA series.  It's also the old Rosell Thermo III.

I am not familiar with that pH meter, so can't comment.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: DeejayDebi on January 24, 2010, 10:10:37 PM
Sounds like some good ideas guys - I have taken carful notes. Thanks!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on January 25, 2010, 01:53:39 AM
Wow, that was a weird experience. I used fresh milk, fresh cultures, rennet and CalCl. I didn't have the double-strength rennet so I used regular liquid animal rennet, 1/2 tsp per 2 gal (diluted in 10 tsp filtered water). I even assured that the milk got its .2pH drop during the 30 min ripening cycle at temp. I did the whole thing with the turning bowl to figure out flocculation time and I got it at 18 min. I waited 36 additional minutes and... messy curd! It took two more hours at 88F to get a lumpy curd somewhat going, but still no real clean break.

This is the first time I make cheese with homogenized supermarket milk and even though I used the happy no-hormone cow's milk from Whole Foods, I would have to assume that this is the source of trouble. Beyond the violent homogenization and pressurization processes, it seems you cannot even get organic milk these days without the idiotic addition of Vitamin A and/or D to it. (is this some kind of law?) Anyway, if you think you know what went wrong - please do share.

Eventually I just gave up and cut the weak curd. After mixing it about 10 gentle turns the curds were at roughly rice size. Frustrated, I removed 1/3 of the whey, added rennet and even more CalCl and continued with the cooking (adding hot water). As weak as this curd was, by some miracle I got 4 lbs. of it into my Tomme mold (out of 2 Gallons). I used a 5Lbs weight to press it and the curd seem to mat together. I increased the weight by accident on the 30 minute cycle and the cheese was rapidly turning into Pita flatbread. I hope that I didn't kill the cheese completely by making it short and dense now (approx 2.25"x7.5"). It is now spending its first night in a 76F room at 40% RH in the mold+cheesecloth with 5Lbs weight on the follower. Do you think I should have a do-over with the good milk from my farmer? or does this sound normal? I mean, this recipe starts like a million other cheeses where the milk easily curds to a clean break. Why didn't this one?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: FRANCOIS on January 25, 2010, 04:27:47 AM
Generally for this type of recipe a mush curd can be traced to the following sources:
-pH drop insufficient during ripening, I have found that even expensive pH meters need constant calibration
-temperature too low during ripening and set, even 2 degrees is critical for meso cultures.
-excessive stirring after rennet addition, this is especially true with goat milk

I would also check that the rennt amount was correct.  Other than that, it could just be a fluke.  Even the best cheesemakers have off makes.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 25, 2010, 09:58:47 AM
Was the milk normal pasteurized or ultrapasteurized? A lot of the organic or no-hormone milk at Whole Foods is ultrapasteurized.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on January 25, 2010, 12:24:59 PM
Thanks you guys!
Francois: It must have been a fluke. I was vigilant about the temperature and actually initially overshot it it at 90.6F instead of 88 and cooled it back down to a reasonable 89. It was 88F when I added the rennet.  This recipe calls for .4ml double-strength rennet and I used my single strength per the instructions on the bottle - 1/2 tsp (2.5ml?) diluted in 20x water. I add it gently; sprinkling the water in a spiral direction and then top stir a few motion and do about 10 more motions up and down the pot with a slotted spoon. I am still new to the pH meter but it did give me the .2pH drop.

Linuxboy: Yes, I am weary of the ultra pasteurization in "organic" milk brands like Horizon and Organic Valley and stay away from it. This was supposed to be regular pasteurized and also tasted like such. Do you think that their addition of vitamin A and D could be an issue?

In any event, it's been 12 hours and I have a nice looking cheese that is ready to brine. The pH level dropped to 5.15 though. Is that way too low?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 25, 2010, 12:52:43 PM
I doubt the vitamin addition made a difference. Your temps seem fine to me. Did you dilute the rennet in distilled, cold water, and add it right away, or did you dilute and let it sit out for a while? Rennet can degrade if left sitting in water or if the water is chlorinated or has high mineral content. The rest of your steps seem OK. Maybe it was just the milk. How much CaCl2 did you add?

Sometimes, it just doesn't work like expected even if you do everything right.

5.15 is a tad low, but still above the 4.9-5.0 threshold where a tomme stops developing a pleasant nuttiness. I try to target 5.3 or 5.4 for tomme and then brine it. What was your whey drain pH when you pressed under the whey?

Tomme is basically an alpine variant, most often made with a meso culture. It grew out of a similar area as, say, an abondance. But the key differences are it's not cooked to as high of a temp, the whey drain is a touch lower to have a balance between plasticity and crumbliness, it's more moist (higher floc multiplier), and the acidity is allowed to develop after pressing to help preserve it, as there's no propionic, or if there is, it doesn't grow well because the wheel is cellared quickly and not left to ripen.

So whereas with a high-heat alpine style you target a higher end pH before brining, a tomme will tolerate a lower pH. But the key is to achieve a pre-brine pH that is a balance between acid development and calcium content (more acid = lower pH = less calcium). This point in cheese is about 5.4. It's a great tradeoff among sliceability, meltability, flavor, etc.

The commercial tommes vary significantly in terms of paste/body, so I wouldn't worry about it. Your cheese will still be good :)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Missy Greene on January 28, 2010, 10:00:20 AM
I also have a tomme in process(goat milk) I am wondering if you want to make a Tomme aux herbes, when would you add the herbs so that they stick, and then i guess you would forgo washing the rind??? or are the herbes presssed in somehow after the rind has been treated a bit???? Also what is the deal with "bagging" the cheese? I see that Francoise brought that up with the Drunken Goat, in the new book O @00 easy cheeses... ther is the recipe which I hav just made, but no mention of bagging it,, comments most appreciated!!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: FRANCOIS on January 28, 2010, 01:45:32 PM
All of those methods will work to some extent.  You can line the mold with herbs, mix the herbs with the curd, dunk in brine and roll in herbs, soak the herbs in wine and roll the cheese in them... many variations are possible.  It is possible to pat the rind down with herbs on it, you just need to be careful. You could also vacuum bag the cheese, but this is no guarantee of keeping the rind mold/yeast free unless you can flush with nitrogen.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on January 29, 2010, 12:48:31 AM
Thanks for all this useful info Linuxboy. I am still new to pH readings and so far it has thrown me into more confusion than help. I don't know if my readings are proper or accurate and if I do it in the right time. I still feel it's wierd to stick a ph meter .5" deep into a curd of otherwise-beautiful cheese to find out its pH. I don't think reading the whey will give me the same results. I also made a brine and tried for 2 hours to raise its pH level to 5+. I dilluted with more water and CalCl but to no avail - I was stuck around 3.7 and 3.9. Without a pH meter I would probably just have trusted that 1 cup of kosher salt to 4.5 cups of filtered water would give me the right 22.5% brine. Add half tsp CalCl and a few drops of vinagar and I am done. Now this wrong pH thing renders me paranoid. What would you do? Add more CalCl? Dilute more of the salt with water?
I moved it to the cave yesterday morning. Aging at 60F and 60% RH now. Turning over once a day
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 29, 2010, 01:11:49 AM
For proper and accurate readings, you need to maintain the probe by keeping it in a solution of KCl so it doesn't dry up, and calibrate before using.

Assuming you do that, let's think through the pH issue together. pH is about acid of base ions in solution (H+ or OH-). To change pH, you add OH- (a base) to raise it, or add H+ (an acid) to lower it.  If you added too much vinegar, you need to neutralize it with a base or buffer. One easy option is baking soda. A more classic option is sodium or potassium hydroxide (lye).

If my pH was too low, I would raise it with a base dissolved in solution. You are right, target a brine that has a pH about the same as the cheese. A pH of 5.2 is often used as a great starting point.

CaCl2 is for the calcium balance. This is because you don't want to pull calcium out of the curd. It does little for the pH.  Diluting with water helps a little, but what you really need is to adjust the H+ balance.  Next time, one approach you could take is adding a little vinegar at a time and thoroughly stirring until you get to the right pH.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on January 29, 2010, 01:31:17 AM
Thanks again Linuxboy. It's a relief knowing someone can take me through that.

So raising the pH is as easy as adding baking soda? and the Sodium Bicarbonate won't affect the cheese? Fantastic! I really only put a few drops of vinegar, less than 1/4 tsp per quart so I don't understand the pH spike. I have dilluted it to 2 quarts by adding the same of everything except the vinegar and the pH only dropped .2

I do have an issue with calibration and storage of the probe. The instrument didn't come with any accessories to do this, aside for a small rubber cap for the last .25" of the probe which they say I should fill with solution and close it on the probe to keep it stored wet. Seems in reality that that 1/4 tsp capacity will evaporate after a day or spill if I put the pH meter at any non-upright position. Are you suppose to fill up some test tube with solution and drop the probe into it all the way just below the electrical connectors? Is that how you store it?

The package also didn't include any 10.01 or 4.01 solutions so perhaps my thing is miscalibrated altogether which may be the source for all of my problems.

Lastly, I am still not too clear about checking a cheese the morning after. I can't possibly stick the probe in the curd or take curd samples out. I don't believe that measuring the whey from the draining board under the cheese would give me an accurate identical reading for the curd from which it came. How do you do that?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 29, 2010, 12:42:53 PM
Quote
So raising the pH is as easy as adding baking soda? and the Sodium Bicarbonate won't affect the cheese?

It has the effect of raising the pH. Soda is a buffer, and will neutralize the acid. The more "correct" way to raise pH is to add hydoxide. The bicarbonate will add a little sodium to the cheese, so you will need less salt. But the amount is so small, that it not material.

Quote
Fantastic! I really only put a few drops of vinegar, less than 1/4 tsp per quart so I don't understand the pH spike. I have dilluted it to 2 quarts by adding the same of everything except the vinegar and the pH only dropped .2

Eh, I think your meter is off. You need to do a multi-point calibration and clean it
Quote
I do have an issue with calibration and storage of the probe. The instrument didn't come with any accessories to do this, aside for a small rubber cap for the last .25" of the probe which they say I should fill with solution and close it on the probe to keep it stored wet. Seems in reality that that 1/4 tsp capacity will evaporate after a day or spill if I put the pH meter at any non-upright position.

Yes, it will. I store my pH probes upright in 7 solution or a KCl solution. Works fine.

Quote
Are you suppose to fill up some test tube with solution and drop the probe into it all the way just below the electrical connectors? Is that how you store it?
You could, but I just store the probes upright and let gravity do the work.
Quote
The package also didn't include any 10.01 or 4.01 solutions so perhaps my thing is miscalibrated altogether which may be the source for all of my problems.

I suspect this is the case. I do not trust single point calibrations. When calibrating, your calibration solution should be as close to the sample you're measuring as possible.
Quote
Lastly, I am still not too clear about checking a cheese the morning after. I can't possibly stick the probe in the curd or take curd samples out.

Why not? Also, why not reserve some curd from the batch and use that for measurement?
Quote
I don't believe that measuring the whey from the draining board under the cheese would give me an accurate identical reading for the curd from which it came. How do you do that?

It will not. But, I rarely measure the pH after the make for tomme because I know how it should look and feel. Also, by that time, there's not much I can do to fix problems. I pay very close attention to cooking and drain pH and pre-brine pH. I measure a reserved curd sample and once in a while will measure cheese wheel pH directly.

For aged cheeses, if I'm doing quality control, I puree and emulsify after taking a sample with a cheese trier.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on January 31, 2010, 02:25:22 AM
Perfect Linuxboy, you seem to have answered all of my questions about the pH measuring. Still new to this equipment.
Just one thing - the reason I do not want to stick a probe in the cheese the morning after is simply to avoid making a puncture hole in an otherwise perfect new cheese. The probe is thick enough so that it never heals.  Taking a sample curd and put it on the side to measure in the morning next to the cheese is a good idea, but pressing cheese accelerate acid production and if the curd I reserve on the side is not pressed, I suspect it won't give me a reading identical to that of the main cheese. Don't you think?

Going to try another Tomme today (also time to start washing the previous one in beer). This time I am using less pressure and much better quality un-homogenized milk. Will follow your recipe to the teeth. I am going to add a pinch of MD89 to my meso to get small eyes and buttery flavor. I think my Meso is MM100.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on February 01, 2010, 03:01:31 AM
Hmmm... Just made it per your recipe. Everything went perfect (which confirms that last week's milk was just wierd).  At least is was perfect until the post-colander part.
It seems the matting was so strong that it began to form a shape in the colander after only 5 minutes of draining. As I moved it to the Tomme mold I had to break the curd down to shape it like Tomme and then re-matted it under light pressure I am now stuck with a very rough surface full of caves and deep holes. I suspect this won't mature well as It won't develop proper rind and will probably be molds galore. The light press almost didn't do anything so I doubled it to 10Lbs. (still not much for a 7.5" Tomme mold) , but as I attempt to press and smooth the surface, I get the same short cheese of last week. It's a bit less than 2" high (the mold is 4" x 7.5"). Should I increase weight? (I mean, this seems like it's half a cheddar already).
How can I smooth the surface? I am afraid this is getting too late to try  ???
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on February 01, 2010, 09:47:18 AM
Oh, sorry, in converting this from a large vat batch to a small vat batch, I omitted some tips to make a better cheese. The way you can get a better surface is to use a pot that is the same diameter as your mold. Press under whey in the pot, and the wheel will already be formed by the time it goes in to the mold.

The other way is to take the curd mass, put it in the mold, reserve the whey, and then put the mold into a container, and pour the whey back in. Then press the mold in the whey, flipping repeatedly over the first half hour to get a smooth rind. Then drain the whey and press as normal.

If you have to mill a little to get it in the mold, you need to press with more weight to get a more even surface. This will not necessarily make your cheese drier. It's the flocculation and curd size that determine moisture more.

Also, flip frequently, this helps with getting a smooth surface. You can increase weight a little to help with the surface.

And with a normal 7-8" tomme mold, you should use 4 gallons of cow's milk to get a more traditional shape.

If you're worried about molds, you can try using a natural mold inhibitor like cayenne or cinnamon. Rub it in the rind, then do an oil/spice rind treatment.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Missy Greene on February 01, 2010, 10:09:40 AM
I had the same results today. My first tomme which I fed to the chickens had a coarse surface, the second one has a lovely smooth surface, and the one I started brining last night has a coarse surface. I wonder if it has to do with the amount of stirring during the temp increase?? it is not clear how much stirring to do.... wouldn't too much stilling and braking up of those matted curds release too much whey and give a coarser surface?? How much stirring would your recommend??? I am going to try another one today and try to be more observant of that stage. Also, I can only do one at a time so have been using 2-5lb weights on top of a cutting board.....
Tried my crottin last night but that is another subject..see you there.
 MIssy
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on February 01, 2010, 10:20:08 AM
Another idea you could try is after taking a chunk of curd, knead it into the mold, especially the edges. This helps with the initial distribution of the curd and pressing helps to produce the smooth surface.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Missy Greene on February 01, 2010, 11:30:34 AM
Will give it a try and let you know. Thanks Missy
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on February 01, 2010, 02:33:00 PM
Thanks! I did break up the curd but I didn't want to overdo it and mill it (though I could have turned it into nice Comte or Cheddar at that point quite easily!). I felt a bit dumb about it because frankly my colander wasn't way off the size of the mold and I could have just kept the same curd and be done with it. Oh well, next time.

I ended up pressing overnight at 25Lbs turning/redressing at the 6th hour. Off the press in the next 40 minutes, ready for immediate brining.
Yes, these molds do need more milk but I was hoping for a 2.5" height. this just means lots of rind and less curd in the final product. I also assume that due to this size I can probably age it in as little as 6-8 weeks as long as I treat the rind nicely.

In the meantime, a week has passed and I began washing the curd of the previous Tomme with an incredible Belgian ale I found at Whole Foods called Duchesse de Bourgogne. It's an unfiltered tart and sweet ale that is sold in a Cava style bottle with cork. It has notes of currents and apples, with rich brown-red caramel color. I think it would make for an incredible cheese. Think of a cross between beer washing, brandy washing and drunken goat treatment.

Last concern; I also made a batch of mini goat's Camemberts this weekend. I need to set my cave back to 55F for the next 8 days. Probably will slow down the week-old Tomme just a tad. But can I mature my new Tomme in this low temp during its first few days? It will probably be dry and ready to age in 36-48 hours from now.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on February 05, 2010, 01:22:00 PM
55F is a good temp for tomme, and most other cheeses. It does well with a slow and steady maturation. I like my tommes when they have a good balance of nuttiness and sharpness, which is a minimum of 6 months at 50-60F. I like humidity to be in the low 90s.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on February 05, 2010, 01:59:34 PM
I also have a tomme in process(goat milk) I am wondering if you want to make a Tomme aux herbes, when would you add the herbs so that they stick, and then i guess you would forgo washing the rind??? or are the herbes presssed in somehow after the rind has been treated a bit???? Also what is the deal with "bagging" the cheese? I see that Francoise brought that up with the Drunken Goat, in the new book O @00 easy cheeses... ther is the recipe which I hav just made, but no mention of bagging it,, comments most appreciated!!

Depends on what you're trying to achieve, like Francois said. I will add that if you want to embed the herbs in the outer rind, then they need to be pressed into the rind before the cheese acidifies too much. This is what I think Francois means by "being careful with it" In other words, herb while the cheese is still sticky. A good point to do this is after flipping the cheese 3-4 times... so an hour or two in the mold. Take the wheel out like you would for a flip and roll in herbs or sprinkle them on, and put back in the mold. If you wait too long, the rind will acidify and not be sticky enough, and you will need to use mechanical advantage to force the herbs into the rind, vs using mechanical and chemical advantage by herbing early on.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Missy Greene on February 06, 2010, 08:30:51 AM
Thanks ..so  my thought is that you would mix salt in with the herbs seeing that brining with herbs on , well, obviously would not work...... I would guess the salt amount would be sort of high as the brine solutions is high.....
 I may try this today.
 Missy
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on February 07, 2010, 12:32:33 AM
OK ...next stage; I am now facing a beautiful week-old Tomme, maturing in my wine fridge at 65. It's very dry outside and I have about 50%RH in the thing so I oiled it and put it in a closed aging box.

It's rather naked and I think it's time to build a rind on it. I am already washing the other one in Ale so I don't want to beer wash this one. Instead, I am trying to decide between the following:
- just oil and vacuum pack it for 3 months (soft rind I know)
- Wax it (not a big fan, this isn't a cheddar or gouda)
- Make bacterial wash with what I have: Mix simple brine (light kosher salt, CalCl vinegar) with a pinch of PLA (because of the funky smell and b.linens in it) and Geo 17 - will this work?
- Make non-bacterial wash with what I have, light brine with a nice gamy and quite funky Cote du Rhone wine that I have. I can wash it, or brine with it for 24 hour, dry it off and then vacuum.

Which would you do?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Missy Greene on February 07, 2010, 02:52:00 PM
I am following the brine recipe in 200 cheese currently , on my first tomme, today is my 2nd washing. my second one is still just sitting for this first week. today  I will start the 3rd one, I want to do the herb thing but am not sure about salting with the herbs If I were yo I'd try the cotes du rhone idea as you haven't done that yet.  I was thinking of trying that with some blueberry wine for local flavor.  how did your crottin come out??
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: clherestian on March 29, 2010, 01:13:13 PM
I am thinking about making this recipe in a couple of days, and I am wondering about a couple of things.

1) Will it be ok to pasteurize my raw milk for this recipe? My wife love tommes, but she is pregnant and cannot eat raw dairy. Does pasteurizing affect the recipe?

2) Is that amount of rennet correct? That is only .08 of a teaspoon, which is much less than I normally use for two gallons of milk.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: FRANCOIS on March 29, 2010, 03:41:45 PM
OK ...next stage; I am now facing a beautiful week-old Tomme, maturing in my wine fridge at 65. It's very dry outside and I have about 50%RH in the thing so I oiled it and put it in a closed aging box.

It's rather naked and I think it's time to build a rind on it. I am already washing the other one in Ale so I don't want to beer wash this one. Instead, I am trying to decide between the following:
- just oil and vacuum pack it for 3 months (soft rind I know)
- Wax it (not a big fan, this isn't a cheddar or gouda)
- Make bacterial wash with what I have: Mix simple brine (light kosher salt, CalCl vinegar) with a pinch of PLA (because of the funky smell and b.linens in it) and Geo 17 - will this work?
- Make non-bacterial wash with what I have, light brine with a nice gamy and quite funky Cote du Rhone wine that I have. I can wash it, or brine with it for 24 hour, dry it off and then vacuum.

Which would you do?

I wouldn't have oiled it.  At 1 week there is still a lot of flux through the rind and you will encourage parastic yeasts keeping the moisture from being expelled.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 29, 2010, 03:52:17 PM
Don't mean to sound harsh because a decision made out of an abundance of caution is praiseworthy, but scientifically, there has never been a documented case of an aged, raw milk cheese that has sickened anyone, pregnant or not. Even in current pediatrics and gynecology science, the "no soft cheese while pregnant" mantra is slowly changing to one more in line with studies. Which is, that any cheese from raw milk should be avoided before 60 days of aging, and that in general, for extra caution, washed-rind, smear rind, and mold cheeses should be avoided, even if pasteurized, just in case.

So with that in mind, it's perfectly fine to pasteurize your milk :). Cheese will come out very similar. And in this case, you may also want to vac pac and not do a natural rind.

The rennet amount was not correct, sorry. I typed too quickly. I don't cook by strict recipes very much, or with teaspoon measures, it's more like  "x grams culture per hundredweight milk, x grams salt per y grams cheese" etc. So it is .4 ml per gallon of double strength rennet. .8 for 2 gallons. Or, and I added this, 4-5 ml double strength per hundredweight milk.

Another way to look at it is to check for floc target. The floc target for this cheese is 12-13 mins using summer milk. 14 is OK. 10 is too low. If that happens, use less rennet next time. Sorry I can't be more exact, milks are so different. I adjust floc times and multipliers with the season, too, so what I just wrote is more of a guide.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 29, 2010, 03:57:18 PM
I agree with Francois. I oil more as a rind treatment, to prevent excess evaporation, or as a way to apply a spice. In this case, I keep RH on the lower side, in the high 80s, to discourage molds, and first wash with a brine to build up the rind to a good level and let the cheese stabilize. Then after the cheese stabilizes, I will brush some oil on, or brush a spice/oil mix on. It takes 3-4 weeks for the cheeses to stabilize enough to my liking. One other way to tell is that you wash with brine at first, and will get some mold. But then the new molds stop trying to actively start colonies on the rind. At that point, the rind is about ready.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: clherestian on March 29, 2010, 05:10:18 PM
Another way to look at it is to check for floc target. The floc target for this cheese is 12-13 mins using summer
milk. 14 is OK. 10 is too low. If that happens, use less rennet next time. Sorry I can't be more exact, milks are so different. I adjust floc times and multipliers with the season, too, so what I just wrote is more of a guide.

Thank you for the additional details. That is about 1/6 teaspoon for 2 gallons of milk - a bit less than some harder cheeses.

About the floc time, I haven't got the hang of that yet. I've read about it tons of times, but somehow putting a bowl on top of a two gallon pot of milk doesn't work out. I think I need someone to show me. The two local cheese makers I know don't use floc time, so I haven't seen someone do it.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 29, 2010, 05:24:34 PM
You don't necessarily need a bowl. Anything that floats will do. Washed and sanitized empty yogurt cup, a piece of sanitized wood, tupperware, etc. You push it or spin it once in a while, and when you push and it doesn't go, that's when the surface of the milk has gelled over.

Wayne posted a nice video of what this looks like. Check out around 4:00-4:30

Homemade Parmesan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqT69URib2g#)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: clherestian on March 29, 2010, 08:39:00 PM
Linuxboy -

Thank you very much for the video showing the floc. I can certainly do that.
 
What do you think I should use for my rind? On hand, I have geo 13, corneybacteria, kl71 and penicillin candidum. From looking at the ingredients of PLA, I assume I should use the b linens and geo. I see the Micodore, Mycoderm and Micrococci on glenn garry, but they are rather pricey.

Instead of MA4000, can I use MM100 and Abiasa's Thermophile Type C?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 29, 2010, 09:23:03 PM
Well, the classic tomme types in the pyrenees are mycodore and mycoderm variants, often with other natural yeasts. You can try to reproduce them, but they are minor adjuncts to the mycodore/mycoderm combo. For example, the adjuncts are geo, debromyces/klyuveromyces, and micrococci like arthrobacter and staphylococcus. All these adjuncts are really just for flavor nuanceing and for rind neutralization, and to feed the other yeasts/molds.

When you get into PLA, you get into the smear cheese category, meaning b linens. A b linens is not a bad choice per se for a tomme base, but it will make a stinky type cheese. B linens is physically sticky on the rind for it to grow, which you can mitigate by killing it with a lower humidity and then waiting for the rind to stabilize and dry up a little. If you use a geo as the yeast and then b linens, and wash it, you're making a brick cheese variant. It becomes basically straight b linens, which can be a cool rind if you manage it and lower the humidity so the b linens dies off and hardens.

In your case, I would try for a first cheese with a washed rind to not use an inoculant to build up your confidence. Use a brush and brine for mold maintenance and to create a presentable appearance, and let the cheese age. It will not form a complex rind, but it will be a good cheese. Then if you want to change it up a little, wash with a beer for the next batch. Then try a b linens/geo combo for 2-3 weeks, and lower the humidity and temp so it ages slowly. Or try a geo/p candidum combo, like you would for a brie, but wash with a light brine, then kill off with a heavy brine, and then let it age, washing and brushing when necessary. This will introduce just a little proteolytic enzymes from the candidum, and it will penetrate the cheese in time to give it a subtlety.

IMHO, with a tomme, less is more. The milk should come through, and so should a slight earthiness and the rind should be interesting in color, but not thick. The rest is about the cheese... moderately firm body, nutty, slightly buttery goodness. Excellent milk, a constant humidity and temp will do more for a tomme than the rind, IMHO.

Re: using thermo C and MM100, that is not a bad substitution, but I think your ratios will be off in comparison with 4001. And I'm not sure you need the extra LH. And, from what I recall, doesn't MM100 produce a lot more diacetyl than straight 4001? I'd rather use Kazu than the MM100 if I was trying to keep a similar profile. But the cheese should be fine with MM100 and a pinch of Thermo C.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: clherestian on March 30, 2010, 04:44:57 AM
Thank you very much. You are super helpful! I'll try your suggestions on a different rind this week.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Cornelius on April 30, 2010, 10:53:09 AM
Hi,

Great thread on making a Tomme - unfortunately,I have been unsuccessful so far  :'(

The problem I am having is that the curd simply does not matt well, or rather, it practically falls apart. Now, I am not entirely sure as to why, but my suspicion is that my PH drops too low and this is why I want to quickly clarify something:

@linuxboy, you mention a 0.02 drop in PH before adding rennet, however, other users mention 0.2 drop in later responses and you never correct them, so I assume 0.2 is correct? However, it takes nearly 90 minutes for me to register a 0.2 drop. I then add rennet amount as recommended, flocculation occurs somewhere at the 9-10 minute mark ... for some strange reason though, the curd won't cut clean until 2.5 hours later. This was the first batch, opn the second try I cut after 45minutes (which is still a 4-5 multiplier) and it sure wasn't a clean cut. Nonetheless, the curd firmed up and became rice size as I stirred and heated. What worries me is that my PH had dropped to 5.79 by the time I reached temp and started draining ... by the time all curd was in the mold I was at 5.2 - I can hardly flip the cheese without it crumbling part   :'(

So, I suppose, the issue here is too low a ph? and if so, should I not wait for a 0.2, but indeed a 0.02 drop initially? Here are a few other facts about what I am doing: mix of goat and cow milk which I pasteurize 30 min at 63C. I do add calcium once temp is at 88F and PH at that point 6.62

@linuxboy, I was also wondering you mention "drain under whey" ... I am not quite sure what that means? Do you mean press under whey? As from what I gather, you have already drained the whey, no?

Many thanks, Cornelius

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on April 30, 2010, 12:11:45 PM
Sorry, I don't always catch things. No, .2 drop is huge. It should be minimal, just a few ticks, .01-.03 or so. This isn't even really necessary. It's only to check and see to make sure the culture is working.

90 minutes is way, way, way too long. It should be 30, maybe 45 mins from adding the DVI culture. Especially for this recipe, with a 1-2 gal size, that amount of culture I listed at 1/4 tsp is a tad overkill.

Your floc target seems okay, maybe a little too short. Tommes should be closer to 15 mins. Just a personal preference of mine lately. I've been decreasing the rennet amount to try and develop a slower, more gentle maturation. It's closer to how it's done in Basque and the Pyrenees and other tomme regions.

When you say cut clean, what do you mean? The whole notion that was started with the 60s-70s era idea of a "clean break" is wrong. It doesn't tell you anything. If my milk is truly excellent, I can get a clean cut at a 1-2x multiplier. If it is not, what is called a clean cut sometimes takes a 6x or an 8x. When using raw goat milk from Nigerians or crosses, all that extra fat (sometimes 12% fat) and protein makes the whole clean cut discussion irrelevant. I've gotten a clean cut at floc before because the curd was that strong. Anyway, that's me on my soap box, sorry.

If you do not get a clean break at the right multiplier, it is your milk quality. Try adding some more CaCl2. How much are you adding now? Also try for a longer healing time, say 15 mins instead of 5. This gives the curd a chance to firm up. Another strategy is to first cut into large pieces, 2" big, let that heal for 15 mins, and then go over with a whisk to finish.

From your description, you are using too much culture, and also waiting too long. .01 or .02 drop is fine, or just wait 30 mins and then start. All you're trying to do is wake up the bacteria, which takes about 30 mins.

By drain under whey, I meant settle under whey/press under whey. Curds expel whey even when in the whey, so they do drain. It was poor word choice on my part. When I talk about draining the whey earlier in the recipe, I didn't mean all of the whey. What you do is stir, and then when the curd mass has shrunk enough, pour off most of the whey, except leave 2-4" on top of the curd pack that has settled. And let those curds settle some more, covered by the whey, and press with your hand to let them mat together in the warm whey.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Cornelius on April 30, 2010, 02:39:18 PM
Thank you so much for all the clarification - a lot of it makes sense now. I will give it a try again on Monday and report. I thought that 0.2 seemed a little much if I want to end up with 6.25 when I drain ...  what does still puzzle me a bit though is that even though I acidification is so far advanced, that I don't get a decent cut until after 2.5 hours (I understand your point on clean cut though).

btw, I use a 24 liter batch with 16 liter damascus goat (the local goat here) and 8 liter cow. I have made several other cheeses with great success and don't think it is the milk quality - I think I just messed up on this new recipe.

to answer your question on the calcium, I add 1g/10 liters (diluted in water).

thanks again, I will let you know how it goes.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on April 30, 2010, 02:55:03 PM
1 g per 10 l is about .01%, which is good. It should coagulate fine. Are you using distilled water to dissolve, and then stirring up and down thoroughly enough to distribute all the rennet? Might just be weak curd. Does it hold together after cutting, but is just fragile, or does it all shatter to pieces?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Cornelius on April 30, 2010, 11:48:52 PM
Hi,

Yes, I do use distilled water (for both calcium and rennet). The curd does hold together, but more in the way of my curd when I make lactic cheeses - which is also why I started thinking, that my problem really is too high an acidification. During the rennet phase, a thin layer of whey develops on the surface (which I guess suggests an early expulsion of whey) and the curd has more of a yogurt texture (however does somewhat hold together and does harden into rice size pebbles by the end of cooking). Unfortunately I don't have any photos of the production phase, but I will add photos of last weeks attempt. It simply did not want to bond and almost fell apart during brining - in the close up you can still see individual pieces of curd.

At this point I strongly believe that it was a matter of too much bacterial activity before I added rennet - in addition to what you mention, possibly too much starter (to be honest, I added even a bit more the second time as it took two hours the first time to get the mentioned PH drop ...)

Thanks again, will post updates.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on May 01, 2010, 09:19:11 AM
When I asked about holding together, I meant right after cutting, trying to troubleshoot the long wait time. But based on those pictures, you have good milk. I meant do the individual curd pieces hold together after you cut them, or does it only take one stir and they all fall apart? If they hold together, your milk is fine. And I don't mean to bring this up again too much, but forget this idea that you need to wait for a clean break.

A tomme works like this: you add the culture, rennet, and wait for floc. You will get a curd set after 3x, and then you cut. The curds will be fragile, but you cut them carefully anyway, into small rice-size pieces. You let them heal to firm up and then they will be OK to stir. You'll see what I mean, it's somewhat amazing to cut weak curd and have it all come together in the end. But, it must be good quality milk.

I don't see any issues in your make except for the whole acidification issue. In your next make try to stick to the time guidelines I posted and you should get a good result and hit your pH targets. Remember, tomme acidifies in the mold overnight... after a few flips, it's still at a 6.0 pH and then you let the acid build up inside the cheese.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: FRANCOIS on May 02, 2010, 04:53:10 AM
Not to complicate matters, but a .2 drop would work if you wash your curd really well and drop your multiplier back. 
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Cornelius on May 02, 2010, 05:38:14 AM
Hi, thanks for your answers.

Linuxboy, I hope I understand your question correctly: right after cutting, I let the curd rest a couple of minutes after which I begin a gentle stir. At this point the curd breaks into smaller pieces very quickly, but not to the extend that it becomes a liquidy mess or a single slushy yogurt texture. During the heating process the curds do become small, isolated little rice size pieces - however, they never really mat together well. So in that sense of holding together (matting), they don't. Which is suppose is the cause of the trouble I cam having which in turn again is caused by to high an acidity.

Francois, I suppose I could try washing the curd to slow down acidification. After speaking with a local cheesemaker yesterday, it now is obvious that I need to get the curd matted, in the form and pressed way before I reach a PH of 5.2 (which unfortunately I always ended up with). Both you and Linuxboy have said the same, but for some reason I managed to get it wrong twice. It is quite obvious, my total time until I had my curd in the mold was over 5 hours (add culture and wait two hours for 0.2 drop, add rennet and wait  2 hours, cut and rest and heat for 1 hour). The entire process should take no longer than 1.5 - 2 hours no wonder I ended up with a PH of 5.2 by the time I had it in the mold (btw, I made a slush of the final cheese yesterday and measured the PH - it was down to 4.85).

So, I guess I rather not wait for a 0.2 drop and fight the rapid acidification, but instead try and act as quickly as possible during the process. To a degree I will ignore PH reading during the early stages and stick to timing instead. However, make sure to have the cheese matting and pressed when I get to 6.2 (and if that involves washing, then I will do that).

Thanks for all your input. I am scheduled to pick up my next batch of milk at 6am tomorrow morning ... by this time tomorrow I should be able to report either another failure or success  ;)

Also, I have planned to pasteurize my milk again - should the batch turn out, I have decided to run a second batch after the 6pm milking without pasteurization in order to compare. I do not want to change two parameter at the same time, but I would like to know what difference it will make.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on May 02, 2010, 06:10:28 AM
Yep, you understand my question correctly. I was trying to figure out of your curd was shattering, which is when immediately when you start to stir, the curd disintegrates and you get ultra small pieces, almost ricotta-like.

Sounds like you understand the issues and have a good grasp of what's supposed to happen. Good luck with the future make! :)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Cornelius on May 03, 2010, 08:04:34 AM
OK, the new cheese is in the mold now for about 2 hours and ... well, some improvement, but certainly not great. I am really beginning to wonder ...

1) picked up fresh milk (still at body temp)
2) pasteurize
3) drop to 88F using an ice bath
4) PH 6.61 at 88F
5) stir in 2g calcium (milk amount 22l) and let absorb for 5 min
6) stir in culture (a little less than last batch) and let it do its magic at a steady 88/89F
7) after 30 min I add 5.5ml 1:9600 rennet (reduced from last batch as floc time was too short). PH is 6.63 (increase, but I always seem to get this initially regardless of the cheese I am making - I wonder if this has to do with the calcium and the quick temp drop right after pasteurization, it might take half hour to actually settle in and read the PH correctly?)
8) flocculation after 16 minutes
9) cut 48 minutes after addition of rennet (3 x floc) and let rest for 5 minutes - curd is soft and not what could be called the traditional 'clean cut', but it holds.
10) stirring and gradually heating to 100 over the next 40 minutes (slight mating happening as I stir, mostly at 96F after 30 min)
11) reached 100F and PH is 6.5 - rest 5 minutes, then begin draining whey to within 1-2 inches of settled curd
12) fill separate container with drained (warm) whey and place cheesecloth lined mold inside.
13) scoop curd in almost a single go into mold and place follower on top with 5 lbs weight - also fill a separate small mold for testing purposes - PH is at 6.47
14) flip after 5 minutes and remove from whey bath
15) flip after 15, again after 15 then after 30 and just now after another hour - PH now is at 6.33 (room temp at 76/78F)

I know, I kind of missed my target of 6.25, but I was afraid it would turn too acidic again ... I hope it will acidify enough over the coming hours (will test the little guy when time comes).

The problem is that it still is not compacted nicely - it has some signs of porousness as seen on my earlier batches. At this point I am also wondering if it has to do with the mold I am using. I specifically bought this 'tomme' mold, but I have never made hard (or semi hard) cheese in this kind of mold before. It only has 8 small holes in the sides and something like 4 holes in the bottom. This is an 8inch mold - up until now I had only used 4.5 inch molds that don't even have bottoms. I might be totally wrong, but it just seems that with this mold the whey simply can't escape and especially since I am only pressing with 5 lbs, I simply can't compact the pate enough to thoroughly expel when and mat the curd to form a uniform pate. The other oddity is that the mold is so heavy duty that it must be built to take 300lbs of weight no problem ... am I using the wrong mold, could that be the cause for the trouble that I have not experienced with any other semi hard or hard cheeses regardless of the cooking temp and PH at time of drainage?

Many thanks, Cornelius

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on May 03, 2010, 10:25:10 AM
The trick to forming a uniform paste with this recipe is to prepress the curd. after you are done cooking at 45 mins, let the curds all settle under whey. Before, you were stirring so the curds would not mat together. Now you want them to mat. So let them all go to the bottom and check back in 10-15 mins. Take your hands and press the curds, squishing them gently to the bottom of the pot. The whey is warm, and when you do this, the curds will mat together. It helps to avoid mechanical inclusions. Press for 10-15 times, gently, or if they are not matting, with some more pressure and 15-20 times. Then when you pour off the whey, you will not be scooping curds, you will be taking out a curd wheel that's already formed. That's why in the original post, I suggested to use a pot with a diameter close to the diameter of your mold, so that you can just plop that wheel right out into the cheesecloth and mold and put some weight on it.

That tomme mold is fine, tommes just need 10-20 lbs of weight and 4-8 flips to get the water out. They wind up rather plasticky and somewhat moist out of the press, a bit like a jarlsberg does.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on May 03, 2010, 10:35:41 AM
I actually do something similar to Linuxboy but instead of forming it by hand in the whey and then hoping that it fits my mold and dealing with it in a wobbly fashion if it doesn't - I simply dip the entire mold (cheesecloth or not) into the whey and form it there and then. I then take it out right into the press.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Cornelius on May 03, 2010, 11:28:55 AM
Thanks guys for your feedback!

But isn't this essentially what I am doing in step 13 above? I know I am dumping the curd into my mold instead of leaving it sit free in the whey, but the mold is submerged in the whey at that point. I place a small weight on the follower to assist the matting, but all that takes place under whey. I suppose I could leave it matting in the mold under whey longer than I did or did I kill the process by moving it through air for a split second as I scoop the curd from the vat and dump it in the mold (again, the mold is submerged in warm whey, just in a second container to make the gathering of curd easier) ...?

linuxboy, what you mention (the working with hands) is what I had done to a degree on my first batch, but it seemed that once I moved the chunks of matted curds to the mold they wouldn't bond with each other anymore ..

And since it will end up rather moist out of the press, do I let it dry somewhat before I brine it?

Thanks.

P.S. I won't be conducting my un-pasteurized comparison this evening as I still have not managed this version correctly ...
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on May 03, 2010, 12:32:17 PM
Ah, I see now. The idea of pressing under whey is to get a better curd knit. The water helps to eliminate pockets, and the warmth helps the curd to knit. You could also use Sailor's technique of pressing in the pot, where you put the mold in the pot, and the pot is in warm water to keep the curd warm.

No, you brine as soon as the curd hits 5.4

Irather, I use that technique sometimes, too. Works almost as well, just gathering up the ends of the cheesecloth and pressing the curd with your hands. What I don't like about that technique is that the inside of the curd will not be pressed, and the outside will be, unless you smush out the curd in a large surface area, like you would in the pot.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on May 03, 2010, 01:29:13 PM
Yes, that's what I meant - under whey = in the pot.
Only difference is that I pile it up and let it knot in the mold but I do not press it under whey because the pressing will modify the pH balance of the curd and I am afraid that all the surrounding whey will wash it off and force its own pH balance on the curd. I begin pressing once out of the whey. Perhaps I am a bit too careful.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Cornelius on May 04, 2010, 07:07:11 AM
iratherfly, very interesting: pressing only once out of the whey - so, pressing under whey will increase acidity too rapidly? However, on my last batch I didn't have the fast acidification problem, I was actually already pressing and my PH was still almost at 6.5

linuxboy, thanks for pointing out that Tomme is at times pressed with 10-20 lbs (the initial recipe mentions to press under its own weight) ... so, I took that chance and added 20lbs to the 5 I already had on there. This was at 2-3 hours into pressing so I am not sure what effect it had, but I thought I give it a try in an attempt to compact the pate a bit.

After a total of approx 9 hours in the press I tested the little guy (which was pressed with 2lbs upped to 4lbs) and it was giving me PH 5.09 on the drops of whey running off of it, making a slushy with a piece of curd cut from it, I got PH 5.36 - either value prompted me to place both in a brine (adjusted to PH 5.1, I forgot to add calcium though, I hope that was not a problem). I removed the little guy after 3 hours and the large one after 14 hours - their respective weights are 305g and 2,465g (a total weight of 2,770g from 22 liters of milk - I had also attempted a ricotta from the whey, but it resulted in practically nothing).

I am somewhat more pleased with it today than I was yesterday as it appears to have knitted a tad better than expected, but you can see from the close up photo below, that there are a fair number of air pockets and cracks - I am not sure what to expect on the inside, it might be full of mechanical holes. The cheese does appear very moist and has a lot of give/spring when pressing down on it - is that how it is supposed to be? It also appears pleasantly tall at exactly 3inches with an 8inch diameter.

They are currently drying a bit before I move them to their cave. How long do you think I should age the little one until I cut it open to see what it looks like inside and what to expect from the big one? Are there any stages in the future that I might want to use the small one to acid test or conduct other tests for which I would not want to cut into the big one?

Thanks for your help!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on May 04, 2010, 09:47:45 AM
That looks great! Age tommes at least 45 days, preferably 60. You can grab a sample with a trier if you have one. Once it's in the brine, you're pretty much done. Test pH at maturity to see if there's some sort of late blowing as a quality control measure, but you usually see that with internal defects. Once a cheese is done, not much you can do about it. I don't routinely check pH as it's maturing. Have enough to do as it is :).

That knit looks good to me; a tomme will have openings because it's not pressed. If you want to eliminate openings, you need to press it with more weight and/or with more heat.

Irather, I haven't noticed a difference in the acidity in having whey contact vs not. I don't press in the whey very long.

Your surface looks good, but if you want another trick, I sometimes like to give the tommes, and other cheeses, a fancier, rustic rind, so I will heat a mold to 110F, like a ricotta mold or something else with a pattern, and warm the room up so the cheese is warmer, and put the cheese in so the mold gives it a pattern. I do this after flipping the cheese 3-4 times, when it has stopped giving off most of its whey.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Cornelius on May 05, 2010, 02:42:13 AM
Linuxboy, thanks! I am happy that you think it looks decent, but I think the photos do fool a bit - reality is not as nice ... I can't wait for the day I see the inside though  ;)

I just placed a new batch in brine 2 hours ago. I overshot the initial ripening temp a bit and it was more around 90. That my be the reason why I ended up with a PH drop from 6.62 to 6.56 - I added the same amount of rennet, but floc time was faster: 14 min (I guess that might have had to do with the lower PH, more bacterial activity?). I was in the mold and pressing dry at PH 6.35 - I then flipped a couple of times and then, unfortunately, went to sleep as it was 2am. At 7am the PH had dropped to 5.09 ... I had missed 5.4! It seems that at some point the acidification really kicks in - should I be checking more carefully (and more often)? Room temp was at 79F.

Here is my question though: my curd still does not seem to mat properly?!? I am talking about the time when I finish cooking and let the curd rest/settle to the bottom. Just as in my previous batch, there is a point - somewhere around 95-96F and somewhere 25-30 minutes into heating where the curd really wants to mat and stick to each other. When I don't stir a section of the vat for 15 seconds, a good portion will have lumped together (which I gently break apart again). But once I reach my final temp of 100F and walk away for 5-10 minutes ... well, I tried your suggestion of using my hands to press on the curd - as I reach in and get to the bottom of the vat, the curd just comes floating up in loads of little pieces. They are once again dispersed throughout the vat, not matted together in any fashion. What could cause this? Is it case hardening (but I increase temp very slowly and gradually), is it the wrong PH (I am at 6.35 - 6.38), is it the wrong temp (I might have overshot a little, but no more than 1F)?

This time I pressed with 30lbs, but since you say this cheese doesn't really need weight, I would rather have it mat better initially. I used more weight, because I have two wheels that crumbled on me and that makes me sad  :'( ... take a look at what they are doing now ... ripening away to become some kind of Feta - strange looking Tomme isn't it?

Once again, thanks!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on May 05, 2010, 10:17:57 AM
If it is not sticking, there is either too much acid, case hardening, or both, or possibly cooked too long. They should be somewhat moist, so when you press them together, they should stick together in a ball. In that case, I think it was too much acid buildup and possibly cooked too long.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Cornelius on May 05, 2010, 10:35:28 AM
wow, too much acid!? at that point I am at 6.35 - should I be aiming to mold even earlier?

Since you mention "cooking too long", the other thought I had is: could it possibly have to do with the way I am pasteurizing? I use raw milk which I pasteurize myself. The batch size is 24l, by the time I get the milk in my double boiler vat it is at 95F, it takes me 1 hour to reach 145F (not very powerful heating element), I keep it at 145F for 30 minutes then drop it down to 88F in max 10 minutes using an ice bath (I actually only transfer little more than half to the ice bath, dropping that portion considerably lower - when I add it back in, the entire batch is at 88F).

Is it possible that the prolonged heat up phase causes damage to the milk? I don't overshoot 145F, but after such a long time heating up, maybe some extra damage is done?

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on May 05, 2010, 11:29:03 AM
Yep, possible, in the form of acid buildup. The thing about pH is that it is an instant measure. It is a relative measure of the state of acid, and tells you little about how much of that acid has been absorbed. Casein bonds (the calcium phosphate) "absorb" acid and break apart. When they do that, the casein micelles don't bond together well, and the submicelles break down a little, too.

So you may start with a pH of 6.5 or 6.4, and not all milk with that pH is the same. In your case, the heat shouldn't do too much damage because it's low, but what you're doing is preripening the milk, then killing bacteria, then ripening it again. Also, by keeping it at that temp, the bacteria multiply, and more will survive pasteurization by the sheer numbers of it.

This is why I keep saying pH is a relative measure. Of course, draining at 6.0 and 6.3 are different in any case, but milk is a complicated thing.

When curds don't bond well, it's usually the acid, sometimes case hardening. In your case, try to add less culture and drain a little earlier.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Cornelius on May 05, 2010, 11:53:53 AM
linuxboy - thanks, it is amazing how helpful you are!

I somewhat follow the acidity/PH issue and will do as you suggest: add less culture and drain a little earlier.

But, let me just get a bit more information on those bacteria surviving pasteurization - it sounds like I would be better off not pasteurizing (unless I can do the 15 second flash pasteurization)? I fully understand that I don't necessarily need to pasteurize when aging a cheese past 60 days (actually, some of my alpine cheeses I age for 12-16 months, even the 4.5 inch wheels), but most of the cheese I make is white mold ripened soft cheeses that are consumed within 4-6 weeks. Sometimes I simply split off half a batch to make soft and continue with the other half to make a hard cheese. If I understand you correctly, my milk at 145F for 30 minutes doesn't kill the bacteria? I need to rethink that entire process - scary!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on May 05, 2010, 12:04:15 PM
145F for 30 mins does kill bacteria. But, it doesn't make milk sterile. Good thing is that it does kill most of the bad bugs (usually about 99.9%) like e.coli and listeria. Pasteurized milk still goes bad, right? Means it doesn't kill everything, just enough to be safe. And if you start out with milk that's already high in bacteria, pasteurizing won't kill off all of them. And because they'll have produced some acid by the time you reach pasteurization temp, heating just helps that acid react. End result is weaker proteins, leading to a weaker curd.

Yes, if you can use raw milk, please go ahead. I love raw milk tommes. But if using raw milk, adjust your DVI, to something like 1/16 per gallon, unless your milk is super clean and free from bacteria or same-day fresh, then you need a little more. Up to you if you want to pasteurize for fresh cheeses, depends on how confident you are in the milk.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Cornelius on May 05, 2010, 12:17:10 PM
Unfortunately I cannot trust the milk over here and would not want to make fresh cheese with it, but then again, I don't really have any problem with the lactic cheeses I make. The milk is however very fresh - it is in my vat 25 minutes after it was milked (never chilled).

As for the Tomme, I will make a batch this coming Saturday without Pasteurization and let you know if that solves my issues. 

btw, I also spoke with the farmer and he tells me his goats had their kids recently and the milk they produce at this stage is weak and might not be adequate to make the type of cheese I am trying to make - could that be another issue?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Cornelius on May 13, 2010, 10:51:57 AM
I have been meaning to post, but since I didn't get the time to make the batch I was hoping to last Saturday ...

Two of the wheels I made are aging away fairly well so far (the older one at about 2 weeks now). I keep them at 12C and 90-95RH, turning and wiping them down with brine daily. Unfortunately I will be leaving for 2 weeks starting Monday (hopefully I will get somebody to tend to them at least every 3 days).

I will report back upon my return, once I manage to make that un-pasteurized version.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brentsbox on September 23, 2010, 03:48:04 PM

As another option, I also like this cheese with a washed rind. For example, a wash made from a malty beer adds a tasty dimension and contributes yeast to the rind microflora. Or add a nutty ale in with the curds during the make.

linuxboy,  at what point would you add a nutty ale?  I have some pecan ale in the garage that im not going to drink and thought it would be perfect for this.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on September 23, 2010, 09:26:29 PM
You could do a drunken tomme where you vac pac it, like you would a drunken goat. Or you can let the molds build up and wash every few weeks with the beer. Be very careful with the beer. If it has residual sugars or is artisan, it will have yeasts. And if it's too wet, it will start to ferment and give you a huge yeasty flavor.

Depends on the ale and how dry it is. What was FG on the pecan ale?

You could add some types of ales to the curds and let the curds marinade, then press them, but this requires a filtered/pasteurized ale with absolutely no residual sugar.

I guess my final answer is tell me more about the pecan ale and I can give you more clear guidance.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: FRANCOIS on September 23, 2010, 11:21:09 PM
Even with pasteurized beer you are looking for trouble, I can attest to adding Guiness at the very start of the press and getting cheese that tastes like a loaf of bread.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on September 24, 2010, 12:14:55 AM
Same results here, Francois, when using a porter I made. However, I was able to do it for a completely dry ale I finished to a final gravity of below 1 (about 3.5% ABV, I made a custom beer wash as an experiment). I cleared the beer with a freezer crash and gelatin, then boiled in a pressure cooker. It was OK in the cheese, pretty light, and I used an aromatic Centennial/Cascade hop blend to try and introduce aromatics, but beer in general doesn't leave the biggest flavor in cheese. A drunken tomme is about the best you could do because the cheese marinates. I adjust calcium levels of the beer in a drunken tomme so it doesn't leech calcium from the cheese.

But in general, I completely agree. Have you ever had some of these "beer-washed artisan cheeses"? The ones where people use a microbrew and try to make it all fancy. It's like someone dumped bread yeast on the surface.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brentsbox on September 24, 2010, 08:19:48 AM
linuxboy,

Southern Pecan Nut Brown Ale is the first beer in the world, to our knowledge, made with whole roasted pecans. The pecans are used just like grain and provide a nutty characteristic and a delightful depth to the flavor profile. This beer is very lightly hopped to allow the malty, caramel, and nutty flavors shine through. The color is dark mahogany. Southern Pecan won a Bronze Medal in the 2006 World Beer Cup in the Specialty Beer category.

Click here to see the beers whole profile.  (http://www.lazymagnolia.com/ourbeer.php#bpbeer1)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on September 24, 2010, 08:35:19 AM
The only thing you can do with it is a drunken tomme. Way too much residual sugar. If you want nut flavors, you could also emulsify the oil and/or extract and add to the milk.

if you wanted, you could also add salt to make a near saturated brine wash with it, if you wanted to use brine to knock back some mold... but that will impart no flavor, might as well use brine.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on September 25, 2010, 12:49:56 AM
This is a terrific idea. If you make a brine like Linuxboy says with the ale and salt, then dip-dry two or 3 times and vacuum it for two months it will be nice and "drunken". Done it with wine before with great success.  However that sweet and yeasty flavor Linuxboy is talkign about - I think it will stay there. Some like it, others don't. (I do i it's not too yeasty, I want to feel the hops and nuts rather than the yeast).
But - if  you age it as is, you may get interesting development. Wash the rind with a bacterial brine and the yeast layer will change its character by helping B.Linen and Geo develop. Wash it enough and their flavors will take over and combined with the nuttiness of the ale may give you an interesting cheese.

To avoid the breadiness, I first dip the cheese in brine and dry it for 2-4 days in room temp. This creates a good rind so that it isn't as affected by the wine. I then dip it in the wine brine (wine, salt, Calcium) and dry it again for 24-48 hours. I then do it once or twice more. This essentially build external layers of wine coatings and doesn't penetrate the paste. (Linuxboy/Francois, what do you think? It worked out for me with "drunken cow" Tomme de Syrah that I've made a few times now)

Linuxboy/Francois - do you think that adding vinegar to the beer brine will kill the yeast due to the pH level drop?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brentsbox on September 25, 2010, 04:31:27 AM
iratherfly,  if I was to try it, would you make the brine a 100% saturation or what do you think?  Im curious about the vinegar idea too.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: FRANCOIS on September 25, 2010, 06:20:59 AM
I used to wash small rounds (about 200g camembert size) in ale but kept them in a dry environment and the resulsts were excellent.  It didn't allow the yeast to take off but kept the beer flavour.  Very hard to do, but customers kept asking for the cheese, so it was worth it.  The dry enviroment gave them an exellent crust, but it was a pain.  I had to wash them twice a day.  I left the wheels to crust after draining for a good week or two before starting the wash.  This probably wouldn't work for a tomme because you need a different environment to age it.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on September 25, 2010, 09:52:29 AM
Linuxboy/Francois - do you think that adding vinegar to the beer brine will kill the yeast due to the pH level drop?

No, yeast is remarkably resilient. Vinegar doesn't have enough umph, it can only lower the pH to 3ish.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on September 28, 2010, 01:10:58 AM
Brentsbox, yes. By 100% I suppose you mean fully saturated brine which is about 18% salt by weight. (or 4.5 parts liquid to 1 part salt. Do it by weight so it's more accurate than by volume). Remember that your beer already has a bit of salt in it but it's not too much. If you have a salometer than you can check the total salt level. Salometer/salimeter is a salinity meter - it's a glass tube that you drop in the brine and it floats like a buoy. The number that is exposed at the water level is your salt %).

If you don't use it, you  may dilute off the rind you have just created with the first brining. Should you reduce the salt levels too much, you will also remove flavor and moreover - expose the cheese to mathogens that love slightly salty environment but can't survive the very salty ones.

Adding simple vinegar (AKA Synthetic Vinegar or Acetic Acid) is just a way to change the pH level so that it fits the cheese. It is not meant for direct bacterial or flavoring action.  I add a bit of vinegar until I get a good 5.5pH (I can't tell you the quantities because I've never done it with beer, but if you don't have a pH meter I would guess half a teaspoon per quart? - Francois/Linuxboy, what do you think?)

Also add 1/8 tsp CalCl2 per quart to prevent further weakening and dilution of calcium from the cheese.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: FRANCOIS on September 28, 2010, 02:40:20 AM
I prefer whey in brine if at all possible.  Otherwise citric acid is choice #2, followed by vinegar.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brentsbox on September 28, 2010, 05:15:37 AM
 Iratherfly,   thanks for clarifying that.  I think I have a better handle on the brine now.  Some recipes have seemed to have way too much salt in them.  Im going to through out my brine today and make some new with the ratios you prescribed.  ( "I rather fly"... just figured that one out.  lol )

 Francois,  When you add whey to your brine, how much do you add?  The brine I have been using has been 1/2 whey and 1/2 water with salt.  I dont have a PH meter yet, or even some PH paper for that mater, so i have had to wing it thus far.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: FRANCOIS on September 28, 2010, 08:41:01 PM
100% whey if you can otherwise, whatever amount you can spare.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on September 28, 2010, 09:30:51 PM
Francois,

In a commercial environment, do you transfer whey directly to your brine tanks? Do you filter and/or sterilize at all? What pH do you adjust to? Do you chill the brine? How long can you use the same whey based brine? Do you treat between batches of cheese? What protocols do you have for Listeria avoidance?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on September 28, 2010, 09:39:17 PM
Brentsbox - funny. for the longest time people here thought my name was Ira.

Francois - We are talking about a wine or ale brine to dunk the cheese at after already dunking it in regular (or whey) brine and drying it for 2-3 days. Not a natural rind.  Do you suggest to add some whey to the ale to tip its acidity level?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on September 28, 2010, 10:48:19 PM
When you add whey to your brine, how much do you add?  The brine I have been using has been 1/2 whey and 1/2 water with salt.
When I make cheese I collect the whey, add salt to it while it's still warm, and refrigerate it for use after the press.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on September 28, 2010, 10:53:50 PM
But we are talking about adding it to a brine of ale - after the regular brining and drying. The whey conversation was a comment about an alternative for the vinegar that I have suggested as nothing more than a pH regulator.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on September 28, 2010, 11:20:21 PM
Fine, then pop a cap and add a brewski to the mix. All is well. I prefer dark ales. Oooh, a dopplebock would be nice!

Ayinger Celebrator, Paulaner Salvator, and Spaten Optimator come to mind.  ;D

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: FRANCOIS on September 29, 2010, 04:12:56 AM
Sailor,
I don't think we have changed brine in years, in fact I am certain of it.  We use an ultra-filtration membrane, inline chlorine dosing and automated salinity.  Listeria, like everywhere else in the plant, is on a sampling plan.

That't not much help to you but what we do for feta may be.  We store feta for 4 weeks minimum in brine from the make.  After the make the whey boiled with a steam pipe, salt added and is stored in barrels till after cheese draining.  It is allowed to cool.  It is then pumped into the aging containers and the cheese lowered in on racks.  The whey/brine is dumped after each batch of feta is aged.

Others,
Whey not only provides acidity but also calcium.  I would still add as much whey as you can to any brine, beer or not.   
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on September 29, 2010, 03:48:49 PM
So you dose with chlorine after every batch? Rate? How do you manage depleted calcium levels?

If you boil the whey, don't you precipitate Ricotta as albumin proteins?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: FRANCOIS on September 29, 2010, 05:58:15 PM
Calcium levels don't get depleted in whey brine, the problem occurs only when you use new water in brine and calcium leaches out of your cheese util it reaches equilibrium in the brine.

No idea what the dosing is, it's all automated and controlled by PLC. 

We boil whey only for feta, which does not go through the regular brine process.  It does not precipitate becuase there is no acid added.

We only keep some whey for ricotta and it is handled outside of the brine and feta process. 
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on October 29, 2010, 01:46:18 PM
linuxboy,

I'm following your recipe today and I have one question in your process:
As soon as you wash, the pH climbs as the acidity is diluted.

Nice workable recipe. Thanks for that.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on October 29, 2010, 02:08:54 PM
For cow milk or goat? Using DVI or bulk culture?

Generally, I start the wash at 6.4-6.45 for cow, a little lower for goat. I standardize cow milk to 6.5 (bulk culture usually takes care of this, or, I have been preripening store pasteurized milk with FD) before renetting, and goat milk to 6.4, and looking for a ~.1 delta pH before wash. Usually, this is right at 45-60 mins after rennet add with 1% bulk culture.

Sorry, writing shorthand quickly, meetings. Let me know if you're stuck or give me a call.



Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: soleuy on December 01, 2010, 05:29:26 AM
Hello, finally I have some free time to make a cheese, I tried again with a Tomme, I chose it because I have the recipe between other nine in a book and this was the third time I proved doing it. It is very similar to the  linuxboy  one.
I resume

Milk: 10 l raw cow milk
Starter: temp. 31 ºC- R704 of Hansen ( Lactococus lactis lactis nad L. L cremoris) only a few grains of it directly over and stirring the milk) then  ripen for 30 min.
Rennet: animal- 4 ml in 50 ml water- Temp 29-30 º C. I think this rennet is not working well, the floc time was too long 43 min and I cut the curd 2hs after. I think I must use more or change the rennet to get the 15 min target floc time
Curd cut: 1/2 cm but it wasn’t regular, I must improved this. Rest for 10 min.
Stir for 30 min raising temperature to 38º C
Remove curd; I removed whey and press a colander on the curd under whey. Ph measure with paper (I don t have a Ph metre) was between 6 and 6.5
Molding I used tube (10 cm diameter and 30 cm height) without holes because once read somewhere that it wasn’t necessary because the whey drains well. What do you think?
Pressed with 1 kg turning upside down at 15 min 30 min and 1 h
I measured acidity ( 10 ml of whey with tow  of fenoftaleina and Na oh 1/9 N The volume in ml multiply by 10 are the º Dormic)
15 min         17 º D
30 min         17 º D
1 h         22 º D
1 h          42 º D

The weight until salt was 1279 gr    (12.79 %)
I decided to salt rub e because it was too late to brine for 3 hours in fully saturated brine  I salt with iodized table salt with iodo because I haven’t other at home, with 1,5 % and I left the cheese at room temperature (20 º C) overnight.

. The points I would like to improve are
1. The lateral appearance of the cheese, I noticed that the lateral surface isn’t smooth, and I would like to know the cause.
2. I have doubts about the appropriate moist of this cheese; I got differences in the three elaborations. In my first elaboration I only raised temp to 34 º  C and the  yield was 14,44 % This cheese is ripening in my fridge at 6 º C. in the second I raised to 38 and the   was 9,77 % . Being dryer I decided to prove ripening in the cellar which temperature in this moment (spring) is 13- 16 º C (I know the ripening temperature must be 10- 13 ºC) and almost 90 %. It’s a very  simple one, it was use as a cheese cave long time ago, it has not floor only the ground  and when it rains it  floods .It was abandoned for years , I  recently electric cable electric to have a light, and a precarious table. I have problems with fruit flies, they appear in my tomme, not in other two cheeses that have less moist. I cut the part with the lavas and put a cloth (tulle) over; perhaps I didn't take all of them because I found flies around my cheese. Any ideas to get rid of them?
In the third perhaps its water content is too high, I noticed the cheese flattened (this happened with the first too) overnight, when I left it at room temperature to dry.
 About the photos

The first it has 23 days in my fridge
The second with 14 days in the cellar
The last done yesterday

The elaboration in the last two was identical, (but I pasteurized the milk in the second) I m not sure why they are different perhaps I perhaps I worked more the curd and I don't remember.
I would appreciate any advice or suggestion
Thanks for all Soledad
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on December 01, 2010, 07:33:42 AM
Quote
I noticed that the lateral surface isn’t smooth, and I would like to know the cause.

When then initial curd knits in the tulle, that tulle is what gives the rind its even finish. If you flip repeatedly and press lightly and keep the room warm, the rind should turn out uniformly.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: soleuy on December 01, 2010, 09:47:14 AM
Thanks linuxboy,
As I wrote I flipped it 15 min- 30 min- and with one hour times till I decided to brine the cheese. I pressed with a bottle of 1 kg (almost the same weight of the cheese). Perhaps the  problem is  temperature and humidity of the room (not too warm 20 º C and too dry). But I´m thinking if the cause could be  that I didn't get the proper curd consistency. I think the moisture of it was too high because it  flattened, I believe this doesn't happen with a semi hard . Now I read that is better to let the curd drop and rest for 10 min, contrary I press with the colander and immediately put the curd in the mold. Another difference with the recipe: I took the cloth after the first flip perhaps I must leave it more time.
thanks again

Saludos para todos
Soledad
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on December 01, 2010, 09:57:17 AM
You can press with a much higher weight at first to create the proper rind. You can easily use 50 Kg or more. The point of the light press schedule is that this cheese is supposed to have some slight mechanical openings and moderate moisture.

You leave the cloth for the entire duration the wheel is in the mold to form the rind properly.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on December 03, 2010, 07:19:01 PM
I find that light-to-medium initial pressing under the whey helps it knot really nicely outside. Regardless though, your next step should be building up the wildest rind you can think of and put loads of character in the cheese. No one will see the see the surface knotting under that...

I do wonder about your aging process though - 23 initial days in the fridge? Why? You want the bacteria and yeasts to do its work, finish it and die off, at which point only the enzymes and rind bacteria survive and continue working. By lowering the temp so much you extend the life of this bacteria way beyond that point. Furthermore, you prevent the bloom of surface flora to take place so you are missing out on rind that would give your cheese such huge part of its character. Additionally, you cause fat lipids to remain quite solid and prevent their timely breakdown which is very important for the texture of the cheese and for its more interesting peak spicy qualities.  If anything; start with the cellar and move to the fridge at the end
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: philipc on December 04, 2010, 07:23:06 PM
Hi Linuxboy.
I've been making cheese for close to two years, but using the newbie method (by watching the clock) . So your Tomme recipe threw me for a loop when you write, "Wait for flocculation". I kind of get the gist of it, but not really. I guess it's also time I purchased a ph meter, but none of my recipes mention ph levels, yours was the first one I've seen.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on December 05, 2010, 12:31:12 AM
Hi Philip,

If you search the forum for flocculation, you will find good explanations of it. Originally, this thread included a discussion that Francois and I had (and others) about flocculation, which explained it. That discussion was moved to its own thread, which you can find by searching for 'flocculation'.

But in short, it is the surface gel point of the milk.

the pH markers are something I include in all my recipes to help people who have a pH meter. It is not absolutely required. A tomme is a very simple cheese because it acidifies in the mold, and so long as the pH is relatively high (above 6.3 or so), it turns out well. And the brine pH is important, but it can be anywhere from 5.2 and 5.5 and the cheese will still be OK.  It's a very flexible recipe.

If you want to buy a pH meter, by all means, please go ahead. But you can make great cheese without one, too. :)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: soleuy on December 05, 2010, 09:35:43 AM
Iratherfly: When you say "light-to-medium initial pressing under the whey helps it knot really nicely outside" : do you mean for example putting a weight similar to the cheese on the mold but under the whey?

And about the aging I decided to follow your advice and I moved the cheeses to the cellar. Initially I didn't do it because the maturing temperature in the recipe is 55 º F and now in my cellar is 60 º F. But like you say better star there and  move later: the temperatures will go up during the summer, and I don´t "know" my cellar, It´s the first time I use it. It was completely abandoned, and still it is. Excuses I can´t find the words, my English is really simple. Better I put a photo so you can see what I'm talking about. The cheeses have a tulle on it because of the fruit flies.
Thanks for all Soledad.
PD I haven`t done a new Tomme, I'm with a Petit Suise and bocconcini in this week elaboration.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on December 06, 2010, 04:43:19 PM
Wow, that's a FANTASTIC cellar! Great also to interrogate prisoners  >:D  But seriously, I think it will give you all kinds of surprising micro flora growth and colorful new molds you could never have imagines. Just make sure that mice, rats and maggots can't enter - they do love their cheese!

You can probably control the temperature a lot by having a fan blowing in there or a spray cooler in the hot months (which will add humidity). Another great way to stable the temperature is by filling the room with things. Hmmm... maybe shelves full of cheese?

As for pressing under whey - yes. that's exactly what I meant. Line your mold with cheesecloth (I soak the cheesecloth in the warm whey too), fill it up with curd, cover the top with the remaining cheesecloth, put it in the vat full of the warm whey and press gently for a few minutes. You can then take it out, flip it re-dress it with cheesecloth and now press it in your cheese press or by stacking cheese on top of one another. If you feel you want it, there is no harm in giving it a few more minutes under the way after the first flip. Just don't keep it there for more than 5 minutes per side.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Buck47 on December 06, 2010, 05:17:09 PM
there is no harm in giving it a few more minutes under the way after the first flip. Just don't keep it there for more than 5 minutes per side.

I'm curious ? What is the five minutes about?  I'm Not questioning what you've said  .... I'm just wondering about the effects of going beyond 5 min.

Thanks:  john
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: philipc on December 06, 2010, 06:36:41 PM
Wow, that's a terrific looking cheese cave.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on December 06, 2010, 10:22:17 PM
there is no harm in giving it a few more minutes under the way after the first flip. Just don't keep it there for more than 5 minutes per side.

I'm curious ? What is the five minutes about?  I'm Not questioning what you've said  .... I'm just wondering about the effects of going beyond 5 min.

Thanks:  john
Yeah, I admit I'm curious about that 5 minute guideline. I sometimes press under whey for 15-30 minutes, flip, and repeat. Just this past weekend I did two cheeses pressed under whey with 15 pounds. I got a good, tight knit by following that strategy. I'm not so sure that 5 minutes would have been long enough for my Beaufort and Goutaler.

The cheese cave left me speechless. I too missed the chains, leg-irons, and other dungeon accessories.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: soleuy on December 07, 2010, 06:44:52 PM
Well my cellar hit you,  I was embarrassed about it because it´s so abandoned and
you would think I'm a kind of a witch with that scary cellar.  ;)

Happily I haven't seen mice or rats yet , there are lots of them up in the barn but they haven´t  discovered the cheeses. The only animals I've seen are these hateful flies and a little frog.
Iretherfly you say I can control temperature "with  a fan blowing in there or a spray cooler"  I don't know what this last  is, but it seems to me that these are to move the air, but won't cool the cellar or I'm wrong? I noticed that the temperature it's very stable, I have a minimum- maximum thermometer there.
And about the shelves I have the idea of get some, when I have some time to look for a cheap alternative.
I don't know the reason of pressing for no more then 5 minutes but I think  its because in the recipes says pH should be 6,36 of higher and  perhaps being under whey with the temperature near 38ºC (100º F) would decrease the pH, because of bacterias's activity. It can be an advise only for some types of cheeses.
 My petit suise was ok but I failed with the mozzarella,
Thanks for all
Hasta pronto Soledad
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on December 14, 2010, 04:01:45 PM
As I love tomme, and am flush with confidence from a chevre that actually set, I am very keyed about this thread, Linux, and your articles.  Many thanks once again for some tremendous leaps up the learning curve.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: soleuy on December 19, 2010, 09:33:00 AM
Greetings to all!!
I'm sorry because I left cheese making for a while.... the reason is  I have a lot of work arranging everything for Christmas, we will be sixteen  resting  at home for some days or Next year I will restart with the cheeses.
Felices Fiestas para todos Soledad
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brandnetel on January 02, 2011, 05:19:09 PM
Pardon if I missed this along the way in this thread, but just for clarification: when the recipe says 'press under it's own weight', this means 1 lb of weight for every pound of cheese, correct?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Buck47 on January 02, 2011, 05:30:24 PM
Need help on how to make brine from Whey for a Tomme

Made a Tomme today using raw milk - skimmed off the cream. Went well thanks to advise on this thread and linuxboy's  'Tomme: Basic Howto ( Washington Cheese Guild)'

Now I need advice on how to prepare a brine for the Tomme made this afternoon.

I saved the whey as a base for the brine.
 
linuxboy advised on the Washington Cheese Guild : "If brining, use an 18-20% brine for 3-4 lbs per lb of cheese. Your initial brine must be balanced for pH and calcium. To get there, either use whey, or add 1 TBSP CaCl2 solution and 1 TBSP vinegar."

My question Is How much salt is mixed per gallon of whey?

The cheese final weight is 3 pounds 3 1/4 ounces.

I do have a new 4 pound box of Morton canning salt.

Would those more knowledgeable than I advise?

Regards: john
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brandnetel on January 02, 2011, 06:05:54 PM
Need help on how to make brine from Whey for a Tomme

Made a Tomme today using raw milk - skimmed off the cream. Went well thanks to advise on this thread and linuxboy's  'Tomme: Basic Howto ( Washington Cheese Guild)'

Now I need advice on how to prepare a brine for the Tomme made this afternoon.

I saved the whey as a base for the brine.
 
linuxboy advised on the Washington Cheese Guild : "If brining, use an 18-20% brine for 3-4 lbs per lb of cheese. Your initial brine must be balanced for pH and calcium. To get there, either use whey, or add 1 TBSP CaCl2 solution and 1 TBSP vinegar."

My question Is How much salt is mixed per gallon of whey?

The cheese final weight is 3 pounds 3 1/4 ounces.

I do have a new 4 pound box of Morton canning salt.

Would those more knowledgeable than I advise?

Regards: john


Buck, short answer is something like 2.5-2.8 lbs/gallon for saturated brine. Excellent detailed instructions have been put together here:

http://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-making-cheese-brine/ (http://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-making-cheese-brine/)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Buck47 on January 02, 2011, 06:44:13 PM
Thanks Brandnetel,

The amounts of  2.5-2.8 lbs/gallon for saturated brine are about what I've been finding.

I did read the Wiki before posting on this tread. Unless I'm missreading - all the information given is about starting with water & then proceding to make the brine. With the exception of this Wiki:

 Brine Additives
 Freshly made brines, will when first used for brining a cheese, exhibit cat ion exchange whereby the calcium and hydrogen ions in the cheese surface will transfer to the brine until the brine and cheese reaches equilibrium. This transfer will cause the casein in the cheese surface to absorb water and swell resulting in a soft slimy surface layer that in aged cheeses leads to rind rot during aging. To mitigate this transfer:

Acidify the new brine to a pH of ~5.0, or roughly the same pH as the cheese. This can be done by several methods listed from optimal to least preferable:
Using drained whey instead of water for base of brine.
Adding Citric Acid to water.
Adding Acetic Acid (vinegar) to water.
Add food grade CaCl2 to the brine until reach 0.1%


What has me confussed is the whey was over 6ph when I started pressing the cheese. In the Wiki it says brine should be roughly 5.0 and linuxboy's instructions say

"•Drain in vat or warm colander. pH should be 6.35 or higher. Let curds mat and press slightly under whey.
•Put into cheesecloth lined molds. This cheese sticks, so soak the cheesecloth in pH 5.2 whey beforehand.
•Press under own weight turning at 15 min, 30 min, and 1 hour increments.
•Press until pH is 5.4 or overnight.

So part of my question should be (will the ph of the whey and the cheese be the same in the morning when I ad the salt to make the brine? will both be within the 5.0 range?)

I know I get my best Ricotta when after making cheese, I let the whey rippen at room temps for 12 to 18 hours. Never have checked the ph before starting to heat the whey.

Thanks for your help.  Regards: john
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 02, 2011, 07:48:00 PM
Quote
'press under it's own weight', this means 1 lb of weight for every pound of cheese, correct?

Yes, about that, maybe a little more. The way I do these is I will make 3-5, and stack them on top of each other and rotate them a few times. So when I wrote that, I meant that you stack the molds up and not use additional weight. The point here is that it's a really light press, just enough to form a good rind.

Quote
So part of my question should be (will the ph of the whey and the cheese be the same in the morning when I ad the salt to make the brine? will both be within the 5.0 range?)

Depends... usually whey pH is higher, but it will catch up when the cheese gets into 5.1 territory because the pH curve means additional pH drop in the cheese will be slower, but whey pH will still be fast until it gets to 4.9-5.1. So end point is that let the cheese acidify in the mold, reserve whey, then when the cheese is ready, use the whey. Even if the whey will be 4.9 or higher such as 5.5, it will not matter that much, it will be fine. Ideally, you want total equilibrium, but so long as the calcium is balanced, the pH is less important, so long as the whey is in the 4.8-5.4 range (which it will be after waiting overnight).
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Buck47 on January 02, 2011, 10:19:18 PM
Depends... usually whey pH is higher, but it will catch up when the cheese gets into 5.1 territory because the pH curve means additional pH drop in the cheese will be slower, but whey pH will still be fast until it gets to 4.9-5.1. So end point is that let the cheese acidify in the mold, reserve whey, then when the cheese is ready, use the whey. Even if the whey will be 4.9 or higher such as 5.5, it will not matter that much, it will be fine. Ideally, you want total equilibrium, but so long as the calcium is balanced, the pH is less important, so long as the whey is in the 4.8-5.4 range (which it will be after waiting overnight).

Thanks linuxbby, That explains alot, very helpful.

I would like to make my next Tomme without the use of a starter. I got the idea from your website

 "Tomme is most often made from raw milk, making the addition of culture unnecessary
 because it has natural cultures.

When using raw milk, you can omit adding culture entirely, or add a tiny portion to contribute flavor"


My milk comes from the evenings milking. Temp around 36F. Do I keep the milk refrigerated until the next morning, non- pasturize & pour it into the vat and bring it to a temp of 88F and ad rennet?

Or is there a holding time before adding the rennet ... like an incubation period to allow the milk to ripen and have a slight decrease in PH?

Thanks again:  john


Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 02, 2011, 10:27:19 PM
Okay, so if you're mixing evening and morning, I would cool the evening milk. This is not so much for the bacteria as it is for the fat. The lipase in milk will act on the fat and raise the level of the fatty acids. It often leads to off-flavors or an excessively goaty tang.

I cool evening milk, but not the morning milk, and combine them.

If you are doing all raw milk, completely without cultures, then you need to ripen the evening and morning mix until the pH drops by .1 or so. You need to make sure there's active culture. Most often, when not using culture, a whey starter from the previous batch, or a clabber is used.

I usually use a pinch of culture to ensure it acidifies, just in case, or use a stable clabber. It's somewhat tough to use the milk as is, there's less consistency among batches.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Buck47 on January 03, 2011, 07:34:45 PM
OK, linuxboy, thanks to you --- so far so good.

This morning I made a brine from the whey (1Gal whey/2lb -10oz Salt)
Checked the cheese and whey with Lipmus paper and both read the same - 5 ph.

Tomme has been floating in the brine since 9:00AM due to come out at 8:20 PM tonight ( 11hours 30 min)  Checked it about an hour ago and a nice hard rind has formed, has a nice clean feel)

Ready to make another tomme tomorrow. Have the milk from tonight's milking - Total 4 gallons. Saved 1/2 gal of the whey this morning and put that in the refrigerator where it has been all day.

So my question is how much whey from yesterdays make do I add in the tomorrow morning?

I'll skim off the cream and heat milk to 89F/20C then add the starter (whey)

7.68 ounce would be 1 1/2 % of 4 gal.
5.12 ounce would be 1% of 4 gal.

Could you advise as to how much whey to add as a starter and also how long should I wait for  the  ph drop before adding rennet. I don't have a ph meter. So will have to use a timer.

I was thinking thinking somewhere between 30 min to 1 hour before adding the rennet.

Could you advise?  Thanks:  john

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 03, 2011, 07:47:14 PM
Quote
Could you advise as to how much whey to add as a starter

1.5% by volume of the milk amount

Quote
and also how long should I wait for  the  ph drop before adding rennet. I don't have a ph meter. So will have to use a timer.

For very fresh milk and 1.5% whey, wait 30 minutes. Should be plenty to get the bacteria going, that's long enough for one multiplication cycle.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on January 03, 2011, 07:59:06 PM
Just got the reefer inside and putting it together for a first cave.  Linux, I've read somewhere that the useful window for utilizing whey is quite short - a matter of hours, if my memory serves.  These were for whey cheeses, and I'm not sure why the window is so short.  Any sense how long one could have to effectively turn whey around as an inoculating medium, like you're recommending?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Buck47 on January 03, 2011, 08:23:49 PM
I've read somewhere that the useful window for utilizing whey is quite short - a matter of hours, if my memory serves.  These were for whey cheeses, and I'm not sure why the window is so short. 

Hi Arnaud,

I too have read in several places - "whey must be used fresh, and used within 3 hours if your making ricotta"

However I get my best results when I use (unsalted)whey* which has been allowed to set at room temp ( 68F-70F) for min of 12 hours up to 18 hours.

Average yield is 15 ounces firm ricotta from 2 1/2 - 3gal whey.

linuxboy can add far greater detail than I. But thought I would let you know what has been working for me.

Regards: john

*Whey saved from cheese made from fresh raw milk - unpasteurized.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 03, 2011, 08:43:54 PM
Completely different application. One is for the whey proteins, to collect the remaining solids by precipitating them, which is very pH sensitive. Can't go below 6.0, really, maybe 5.9. No longer sweet whey after that, ricotta isn't the same.

As inoculation, you're fighting the acid development and bacteria viability. I've posted about this before in the whey starter thread, Useful life of whey starter is max 1 week, preferably 1-3 days.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brandnetel on January 03, 2011, 09:32:35 PM
Quote
'press under it's own weight', this means 1 lb of weight for every pound of cheese, correct?

Yes, about that, maybe a little more. The way I do these is I will make 3-5, and stack them on top of each other and rotate them a few times. So when I wrote that, I meant that you stack the molds up and not use additional weight. The point here is that it's a really light press, just enough to form a good rind.

Excellent, thanks! Pressed two little tomme-style goat cheeses just shy of 2 lbs each (like 1 lb 13 oz or so) stacked and with just over 5 lbs atop them. Seems to have worked well. After 6 hrs of brining, a nice springy rind with some resilience to it has formed.  I'm having an early cheese love moment, they seem so fine, it's difficult to imagine shepherding through months of aging, but here we go . . .
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on January 03, 2011, 10:37:49 PM
Thanks Buck and Linux.  I had thought it had something to do with a chemical/physical process, as I know that ricotta, etc., is cooked so it wasn't about live culture any longer.  Just piqued me to wonder how long, really, one had a window wherein the live whey cultures could be an effective inoculating agent. 

Between the rind puree method, and the whey starter culture, Linux, given me lots to work with, thanks for the expertise, as always.  I can search, by the way - but do you happen to have your whey starter thread link handy?

Edit:  Presuming this is the thread (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4409.msg33834.html#msg33834) discussing whey starters - and how much a PITA they are, yes?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Buck47 on January 03, 2011, 11:47:43 PM

Edit:  Presuming this is the thread ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4409.msg33834.html#msg33834[/url]) discussing whey starters - and how much a PITA they are, yes?


Ya PITA --   I believe that's the link. I started studying it tonight. It looks doable for a guy at home, but fraught with problems in a commercial application.
I do find this a great beginners cheese.
Check out these photos. http://fxcuisine.com/default.asp?language=2&Display=201&resolution=low&page=1 (http://fxcuisine.com/default.asp?language=2&Display=201&resolution=low&page=1)

and this one http://fxcuisine.com/default.asp?language=2&Display=220&resolution=&page=2 (http://fxcuisine.com/default.asp?language=2&Display=220&resolution=&page=2)

Both have a panorama of inside the cheesemaking chalet.


Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on January 04, 2011, 12:14:06 AM
Awesome pics, Buck, thanks for the links.  My cooking tends to SW French, but the German part of me loves Alsace, and the Savoie.  I'd love to take a trip to this chalet, and others like it.  Have you been lucky enough to go?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 04, 2011, 12:32:51 AM
Guys, on the whey starter, don't overthink it. Take some from the last batch (1-2%), put it in the milk, and go. A tomme is VERY forgiving, so long as you use very fresh milk and let the cheese acidify in the mold by draining at a high pH.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on January 04, 2011, 10:13:08 AM
Guys, on the whey starter, don't overthink it. Take some from the last batch (1-2%), put it in the milk, and go. A tomme is VERY forgiving, so long as you use very fresh milk and let the cheese acidify in the mold by draining at a high pH.

I suspect "very fresh milk" may be my limiting variable; so far, very pleased with Sassy Cow, fairly local, and they do a nice job, from all that I've heard and experienced so far.  Still, nothing like the freshness you two obtain.  Not like I'm jealous, or anything.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brandnetel on January 18, 2011, 07:14:10 PM
Here are the 2 little wheels of goat's milk "tomme" I made following lb's recipe:

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5161/5361337215_7b4bb3669a_z_d.jpg)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5284/5361337205_a9a68d752f_z_d.jpg)

The photos are after air-drying for a day or so on a bamboo mat. You can see the imprint the mat left on the smoother bottom surfaces of the cheeses. The tops, unfortunately, have some significant divots from the folded-over edges of the cheesecloth lining the molds. I'm still working out proper sizing of the cheesecloth pieces to minimize this.

This was also my first time pre-pressing under whey and I was very happy with the results of that. I think this method contributed strongly to a good tight knit although the total presssing was very minimal - maybe 3 lbs of weight for each approx. 2 lb cheese.

I'm washing these daily with rind puree in mild brine now per the discussion in the other thread on that topic. . .
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on January 24, 2011, 03:49:06 AM
Looks really nice!  With the wash and if you acidified and salted it correctly you should get a very nice cheese! If they are not in aging containers, make sure to keep an eye on humidity in your cave.  What kind of mold did you use? Looks like proper Tomme in proportion but a normal (7.5") size tomme in these proportion should be about 4 lbs. and not 2. It this Petit-tomme? (5.5" diameter?) Just curious.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brandnetel on January 24, 2011, 03:10:06 PM
You are correct, irf - these are the 'petit tomme' molds from Cheesemaking. Nice to finally use them for what they were meant for after trying them out for some harder cheeses . . . As for the mold, I am working with a slurry I made from rinds of Chaumes, Port Salut, Tomme de Savioe and a raw milk Cantalet in 3% brine, as noted in this thread:

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5687.msg43371.html#msg43371 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5687.msg43371.html#msg43371)

Lots of discussion here lately on just these topics, and I as a newbie I am really enjoying all of it. I'm also digging tracking your own raw milk tomme efforts and as a fellow New Yorker I will admit I'm curious about your 'mobile co-op' source. Sounds like it beats driving upstate 3 hrs to get some!

Anyhow, I have been keeping the slurry for about a week and a half now and it seems to get more pungent every day. Although I could not avoid getting some little bits of the cheeses in it, I 've been keeping it refrigerated, so I would think there's no concern, but - whho-ee! Sweatsocks on steroids does not even begin to describe it. I've been wiping down every day for 5 days, then every other day 2x so far, and it's just . . . .blech. Must be mostly b. linens, I'd think. If it gets really putrid-smellying, I may just make a new one. Plus I want a mixed rind, not all stinkiness.

So far there is little or no visible mold growth on the rind - perhaps 3 or 4 very tiny bright orange spots, but that is all. The whole thing has begun to have a 'soaked' look to it though, with the surface seeming a little translucent or something. Keeping at 50-53 deg. and have now achieved 90-95% RH. That is, until condensation drips from the freezer section of my mini-fridge knocked out my meter yesterday! Hopefully it will recover . . . .
Title: Effect of Hard Water on Washed Curd Tomme?
Post by: Buck47 on January 24, 2011, 08:55:18 PM
First, Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. I've learned alot from this exchange. Special thanks to Pav for starting it.

Here's my question"

What if any detrimental effect will using hard water (Limestone) have on a Tomme?

I'd like to start washing the curd as per Pav's instructions on Washington Cheese Guild ---> http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67:washed-curd-tomme-howto&catid=43:moderate-cook-temp&Itemid=66 (http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67:washed-curd-tomme-howto&catid=43:moderate-cook-temp&Itemid=66)


Can anyone advise?

Thanks: john
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 25, 2011, 04:02:41 PM
John, should have minimal effect. Curd does not solubilize/gelatinize at those pH ranges for high concentrations of CO3 ions. In terms of the extra calcium introduced, not really material because the whey has dissolved calcium already. It might slow down the rate of colloidal calcium degradation, meaning you will experience a slightly slower drop in pH.

You're fine. Other ions, especially Cl- are much more harmful, but even then they require extreme pH (9+) or extreme concentrations to cause severe damage. Try a 20% wash if using goat's milk, it makes for a great cheese.

Oh, if you're trying to develop calcium lactate crystals on purpose (nice sometimes in an aged, washed curd cheese), select a culture that produces more D-lactate isomer, and NSLABs that convert L-lactate into D-Lactate during maturation. This helps to increase nucleation sites and proportion of the less soluable D isomer if you want crystals.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on January 25, 2011, 08:24:59 PM
So.... LB.

What culture meets those criteria? Why does crystal formation only show up in later stages of aging? Why in a washed curd cheese?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Buck47 on January 26, 2011, 10:13:05 PM
John, should have minimal effect. Curd does not solubilize/gelatinize at those pH ranges for high concentrations of CO3 ions. In terms of the extra calcium introduced, not really material because the whey has dissolved calcium already. It might slow down the rate of colloidal calcium degradation, meaning you will experience a slightly slower drop in pH.

Thanks Pav:

Nice to know I can use house water.

Had visions on melting snow in winter and collecting rain water in summer.

Another question: I've been skimming off the cream from the raw milk. Can I use the unskimmed milk to make Tomme? Or does using milk with a hight fat content take me into making a different cheese.

And if I can use un-skimmed raw milk do I need to make adjustments to your recipe?

Regards: john

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 27, 2011, 12:36:51 AM
Well, which tomme? There are many tommes, some are full fat from whole milk. Yes, you can use it. If the PF is too lo w(higher fat), then may need to adjust the make to let the curd firm up sooner, and it may drain slower.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Chris_Abrahamson on January 27, 2011, 10:00:24 AM
LB

I just made a washed curd tomme using your recipe from the WA Cheese Guild site.   I used mixed milk - 2 gal raw unskimmed goat's milk and 1.5 gal 2% cow's milk from local grocery.  I ended up with a 4 lb wheel that I brined for 12 hours in a 19% solution.

I am at the point of drying it prior to aging and have been reviewing all the posts for how to wash it while it ages.   Frankly, I think I have read too many posts and recipes and am confused as to the best approach.  This is my first attempt at this cheese and would like to keep it simple.   Any suggestions?  3% brine with PLA?  or with geo or linens?

Thanks for the input

Chris
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 28, 2011, 05:24:30 AM
Chris, reason for the confusion is because there are as many possible rinds out there as there are people who make them. There are maybe a half dozen major types. What cultures do you have on hand?

geo with b linens usually makes for a smelly type, limberger rind. PLA makes for a wheat-colored, rustic type, pungent and complex rind.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on January 28, 2011, 05:32:41 AM
Chris, reason for the confusion is because there are as many possible rinds out there as there are people who make them. There are maybe a half dozen major types. What cultures do you have on hand?

geo with b linens usually makes for a smelly type, limberger rind. PLA makes for a wheat-colored, rustic type, pungent and complex rind.


Not very familiar with PLA, Pav.  I note it's considered a typical "morge" blend, which appeals.  Would you consider this a more "traditional" approach than using one's own cocktail of SR3, Geo, KL71, Mycodore - or is the kluvero and Mycodore just another "terroir" expression, seen in plenty of tommes?  (Have to admit, too, there is a certain alchemist's joy of using one's own pure strains, and blending them....but that's a different question).  Basically:  is this morge blend a good representation of what I see described as "morge" in process descriptions (here (http://www.amazon.com/French-Cheeses-Visual-Region-France/dp/0789410702), for instance).
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 28, 2011, 05:53:19 AM
There are all sorts of blends for morge type mixes. PLA is just one of them. Mixing yourself and buying premixed are both valid approaches. Yes, PLA is fairly representational of the style, but there's a large diversity here.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Chris_Abrahamson on January 28, 2011, 09:55:47 AM
I have on hand - PLA,  GEO 13, GEO 17, B. Linens LR

If I used the PLA would I combine it with any geo or is there enough geo in the PLA blend by itself.

I did use flora danica as the starter so I'm suspecting that may influence the wash selection

Thanks
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 28, 2011, 10:02:03 AM
More than enough geo in the PLA. You can use straight PLA. For your first couple of fancy rinds, I would stick with very simple approaches instead of trying to combine 5 different things. Especially at those small quantities, it's easy to get it wrong.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on January 28, 2011, 02:33:20 PM
More than enough geo in the PLA. You can use straight PLA. For your first couple of fancy rinds, I would stick with very simple approaches instead of trying to combine 5 different things. Especially at those small quantities, it's easy to get it wrong.

Oh, great.  Well, I guess y'all can look forward to pics of "bubble gum tomme." :o
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brandnetel on January 28, 2011, 06:17:40 PM
More than enough geo in the PLA. You can use straight PLA. For your first couple of fancy rinds, I would stick with very simple approaches instead of trying to combine 5 different things. Especially at those small quantities, it's easy to get it wrong.

Oh, great.  Well, I guess y'all can look forward to pics of "bubble gum tomme." :o

Yes, please! I am having slow mold development on my own so I need all the inspiration I can get!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on January 30, 2011, 03:21:36 AM
Linuxboy, Chris_Abrahamson, ArnaudForestier I LOVE PLA!!! I think it's a miracle culture. Great color and aroma development and a really nice bloom helper as both the geo and yeasts in it help balance the pH level and grow nicely. I love washing cheese with it too.  Chris, try washing with a solution as you describe and add some Mycodore to it if you have it. You will get a very typical French style Tomme.

I usually remove Geo and yeasts from a recipe that uses it (or reduce it significantly)

Brandnetel - what's going on with your rind? Photos?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on January 30, 2011, 04:04:33 AM
Linuxboy, Chris_Abrahamson, ArnaudForestier I LOVE PLA!!! I think it's a miracle culture. Great color and aroma development and a really nice bloom helper as both the geo and yeasts in it help balance the pH level and grow nicely. I love washing cheese with it too.  Chris, try washing with a solution as you describe and add some Mycodore to it if you have it. You will get a very typical French style Tomme.

I usually remove Geo and yeasts from a recipe that uses it (or reduce it significantly)

Brandnetel - what's going on with your rind? Photos?

I am thinking on this, as I'm about to rock (with your invention, bien sur!), and thinking more on what I want out of this tomme, allowing that to guide my plan. 

I'm after a thick rind, lots of intensity; more mushroom, nuttiness and earth than other notes, so will be allowing the flora to go for a few weeks, then brushing back; will do a washed curd; and thinking of emphasizing Mycodore and KL71 more, linens less, if at all. I may bag the linens and just go with geo, mycodore, and the KL. 

That said, looking at the makeup of PLA, I'm curious about the specific contributions of the arthrobacter bacteria and Debaryomyces yeast?  I do see the DH loves salt, so see its utility there (as well, its potential spoilage potential in low-salt cheeses?).  Would suspect the DH plays much the same de-acidifying role as KL, in prepping the surface for b. linens, for instance.  And presume it lends some of the same "yeasty" qualities, on further metabolism and lysis.

But don't know much else about the specific contributions of the PLA components, over going with geo, linens, KL and Myco.  (I realize the proportions are also key, and as PLA proportions aren't known, this makes comparison difficult).

Also, well, I dunno...I know this is lame, but something about using PLA over one's own witches' brew just feels like I'm using a "kit" over my own mash bill, you know?  (I know - it makes beautiful cheese...I did say it was lame :-[)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 30, 2011, 09:23:21 AM
Quote
emphasizing Mycodore and KL71 more, linens less, if at all. I may bag the linens and just go with geo, mycodore, and the KL.

KL when it goes too far and overtakes is not very pleasant. And a slow linens bloom at 88% RH is really, really nice (to me). It gives an additional breakdown to the paste and increases sliceability. I'm not the world's biggest fan of KL for tommes. Prefer DH or candida utils. I like some KL in certain blues. Individual preference...

Yoav just posted my favorite rind for tommes: PLA and mycodore, and that's it. I agree, it's a brilliant culture blend, gives a rustic, very French tomme.

DH, does de-acidify, but has less of a yeasty note than KL. Arthrobacter is a coryneform, so it will help to balance out the b linens. It's a way to keep the b linens in check. Remember when we were talking about blends duking it out? This is one classic example. Two species that compete for nearly identical food, and that food is already reduced from the geo consuming it, and the geo/yeast has already colonized the surface and formed a thin mat all around the cheese. For PLA, you have a mycelium mat, and then colonies growing on top and through and interspersed with the mat. End result is that you have a very solid foundation in the geo, and then everything else comes after it.

I have PLA ratios somewhere, have to look it up, will try to post.

You can make it yourself in time. More encouraging to have success right away :). And most of us started with malt extract, then mini-mashes, then custom grain bills :)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on January 30, 2011, 10:20:12 AM
Quote
emphasizing Mycodore and KL71 more, linens less, if at all. I may bag the linens and just go with geo, mycodore, and the KL.


KL when it goes too far and overtakes is not very pleasant. And a slow linens bloom at 88% RH is really, really nice (to me). It gives an additional breakdown to the paste and increases sliceability. I'm not the world's biggest fan of KL for tommes. Prefer DH or candida utils. I like some KL in certain blues. Individual preference...

Yoav just posted my favorite rind for tommes: PLA and mycodore, and that's it. I agree, it's a brilliant culture blend, gives a rustic, very French tomme.

DH, does de-acidify, but has less of a yeasty note than KL. Arthrobacter is a coryneform, so it will help to balance out the b linens. It's a way to keep the b linens in check. Remember when we were talking about blends duking it out? This is one classic example. Two species that compete for nearly identical food, and that food is already reduced from the geo consuming it, and the geo/yeast has already colonized the surface and formed a thin mat all around the cheese. For PLA, you have a mycelium mat, and then colonies growing on top and through and interspersed with the mat. End result is that you have a very solid foundation in the geo, and then everything else comes after it.

I have PLA ratios somewhere, have to look it up, will try to post.

You can make it yourself in time. More encouraging to have success right away :). And most of us started with malt extract, then mini-mashes, then custom grain bills :)


Incredibly helpful, as usual, Pav, thanks.  (Yoav, thank you, as well, for all the contributions here...very helpful).  Will drop the ego, grab the PLA, and go with it an the Myco for these first (several) attempts. 

Keeping in mind that my wife bought me a beer kit for Xmas one year.  Then it was 5 carboys in a row, in a dinky apartment in Chicago. Then a 60 acre farm, a Frankenstein brewery, and Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh Malting and Brewing study, all within a couple of years.  So she will hate all of you for lighting yet another passionate spark. ;D

Now...specific suggestions (outside of blues - only one cave, at the moment, and will be holding off on blues until I've got everything else bubbling nicely, and have my chops down) for my pure-pack of KL?

(BTW - on the reblochon - planning some p. candidum and linens, together.  Presume the geo can work as the pH setup, no need for KL there, esp. as I'm not looking for any "yeasty" notes - but any KL thoughts there, why/why not, if so?....any other cheeses besides blue where KL works well...?...will be digging and thinking as well, but if some immediate thoughts come to mind, well...).

edit:  I see from Danisco that KL is intended for "flavor of soft cheese, and control of the hole formation," while DH is exactly what Pav and Yoav have been indicating, pH setup.  I did a search (useful, duh), and Yoav, see this about reblochon from your post (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4073.msg31655.html#msg31655):

Quote
I too use SR3 in my current batch of Reblochons (which are the same age as yours).  I do however use Geo 15 and KL71 as they work together to prepare the surface pH for the growth of B.Linen and to spread the rind faster and stronger. Yes, B.Linen and Geo can work without the yeast but they will grow slower and thinner so you may end up with a cheese that is too dry and not open to absorb their unique characters by the time it is covered with a good protective rind. Surface-ripened cheese relies on having aging from the outside-in so the better rind you create, the better your cheese will age.

There is another side effect to the Yeast to consider: When inoculated into the milk it apparently feeds on the sugars in the milk. As it becomes trapped in the paste with no proper oxygen supply it dies off and in that process it releases gas that contributes much to the aroma (and possible eye development).


"Control of hole formation."  Presume this means something about the rate of CO2 during fermentation would somehow be unique to KL, and given the curd moisture/elasticity, a finer "bead" of eye, if using this over other options?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brandnetel on January 30, 2011, 09:38:22 PM
Brandnetel - what's going on with your rind? Photos?

irf, my camera is unavailable atm, but after about 2 weeks of inoculation with rind puree per linuxboy's method and schedule, I am just now starting to see some mold forming.  I'm now getting a rather crumbly white mold spreading over the broad top and bottom surfaces of the cheeses, with just a few tiny spots of orange, which appear to be in little recesses. My cave has been at about 54 and 95-98% RH according to my sensor.

I guess I thought with this high RH I would get more b. linens and orange color at first. I used a slurry that included Port Salut and Taleggio, and it sure does stink! The white mold (geotrichium?) seems to be gaining an OK foothold now though, and I've wiped off a couple little spots of other-colored mold (green, mostly) here and there. I'm still wiping down with rind slurry every couple of days and I guess things are going OK if slowly. Will post pics once my camera is back in business.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on January 31, 2011, 04:06:09 PM
I think you are doing fine from your description. I suggest you clean your hands and use them to smear your cheese all over on your daily turn in between washes. Your hands will help distribute and "infect" more areas of the cheese with flora. It will also keep the mold dense and low instead of growing high in some points and then have bold spots next to them.  If the growth is really strong, you can also use a brush once a week with a soft or medium brush. It's a quick brushing whose aim is not to clean the cheese but to merely spread the mold with the brush while micro-scratching the surface.

As for your B.Linen concerns - don't worry. B.Linen is a late bloomer. It shows up 2-4 weeks through and usually does so after the initial geo is everywhere.  The stench comes later.  How old is that cheese?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brandnetel on January 31, 2011, 07:54:58 PM
These are just one month old now, and based on recommendations here I guess I will go with a minimum 2-3 month aging period - longer if I can stand it. But I only started the rind washing 2 or 2.5 weeks ago or so.

I will definitely try the techniques you suggest, what with the smearing and all. In particular I think I wll try to smear from where the mold is most prevalent on the broad tops and bottoms of the tommes to the rounded sides, where there is basically none at all at this point.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brandnetel on February 08, 2011, 09:34:41 PM
Finally got some pics of my goat's-milk tomme rind-in-progress, even it they are a bit sketchy:

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5252/5429435627_80425e8999_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5058/5430041882_1ed92a2ae8_b_d.jpg)


As you can see, predominantly crumbly white mold (Geo?) has come up, with the occasional tiny spot of orange (linens?). I'm getting concerned, though, that the rind is growing too slowly. I've been following lb's recommended dunking/wiping schedule for about 3 weeks now, and what you see is all that has developed. I can feel that the cheeses are getting less springy and feel tougher/firmer, so I'm worried that they may be getting too dry?

FWIW, my 'cave' has been at about 53 degrees and varying between 85-95% RH. I kept it high at about 90-95% for the first two weeks or so of the regimen, then let it come down to about 85-90%.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on February 08, 2011, 11:10:27 PM
Looks good. Nice geo development. Rub your hands on the top and bottom and sides to smear and plant some of that geo everywhere.  Better if you rub it with a bit of kosher salt to micro-scratch the existing rind. It will strengthen the rind and growth. You can accelerate some mold growth with spraying a solution of your mold bacteria in a 3% brine. B.Linen is a late bloomer. Many times my wash regiment requires that I stop washing at a specific time and at that point all I can hardly see any visual signs of it.  It then comes in and grow everywhere within a week or two, even if I completely stopped washing it.  Bottom line, the B. Linen growth affects is a result of your washing, even if it shows up after you've already stopped washing.

Rind growth quality has a lot to do with the resident microorganism in your cave. Cheese likes friends. Put it with other cheese, use wooden or straw surfaces for aging, don't sanitize and disinfect your cave unless you have a reason to do that such as contamination. The cheese can also use 30 minutes of open air once in a while. It needs to breath.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on February 09, 2011, 01:38:22 AM
Seems like this is a very hot topic. 7263 views! Is that a thread record?

I've been taking lots of notes. Great discussion.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Buck47 on March 04, 2011, 10:14:41 AM
Finding the base line of my cheese cave.

My goal two months ago was to find out what would naturally happen to a Tomme placed in the environment of my cheese cave.

My thinking was that once known I could adjust for different rind treatments.

The Tommes where made from Pav's recipe. Brined as per instructions, air dried for one to two days then placed in the cave at temps that varied from from 50 to 53 degrees at 88 - 93 % RH over a 60 day period.

Rinds where washed every two days , with a salt water solution for the first two weeks, then left to age.

My cave is a converted root cellar 4X9 feet. Ceiling 7 feet. Vented to outside air, two walls limestone, two walls and ceiling cement board, hand toweled with Portland cement. Concrete floor.

The photos below show the results.

So some questions are.

Can someone tell me what molds have developed on these rinds? Are they the type of molds one wants to promote in a cave used to age Tomme?

I have not decided as to what type a rind I want to attain on Tommes.

I do prefer the nut brown color I have seen in photos. My goal is to foster an environment that will naturally produce a basic classic style.

Thanks for your help.  Regards: john
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 04, 2011, 10:43:39 AM
Hey John -

Please take my limited experience (heck of a lot more limited than yours) with a grain of salt - but the cheeses look to me to be pretty heavily hit with blue molds, not something I associate with tommes.  I hope I'm wrong.  If I'm right, I don't know that it's entirely a drag, as maybe you'll end up with some interesting tasting cheeses, regardless.  (I don't know enough here, either).

I'll let those who actually know what they're talking about chime in now. 8)

Your cave is incredible, by the way.  You described it to me, but the pics look like you have a ton of fun, in there.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Buck47 on March 04, 2011, 11:07:22 AM
Hey Bud,

Thanks for your observations. 

A little back ground info: I watched the cheese nun  vid. (about five times) Not that I'm compulsive you understand, but one thing came through very clear. Each cheese making area specializes in make one type cheese. The cows, fields & caves all combine to produce a distinctive taste.  So ... why not where I live?

Could be, I have cave conditions that naturally produce one type cheese better than others. That's really what I want to find out. If it's a Tomme so much the better, it the cave is better suited for another style cheese than that is what I will focus my attentions on. Fact is I can buy all the other kinds of cheese. I'm only a few miles from Wisconsin.

My goal is to focus on what works in this location, and get damn good at it.

A Tomme is an easy make at my beginner skill level, hence I started with this cheese.

Could be Stilton's are the way to go. 

Thanks:  john

BTW: I'm still planning on planting Rye this spring. Should find a use for it somewhere in this cheese making. :)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 04, 2011, 11:23:03 AM
Agree with Paul, looks like blues to me that you're trying to keep under control.

As for picking the best style of cheese in terms of mold conditions, many caves have had to fight blue molds until they were under control. The notion of putting a cheese in a natural cave and it all working out by itself with no intervention is challenging because that hardly ever happens. Most of the time, through years of practice and selective inoculation, caves stabilize with a natural mix of beneficial molds, yeasts, and bacteria, that contribute to flavor.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Buck47 on March 04, 2011, 11:51:49 AM
Thanks Pav, that helps put thing into perspective.

It would be nice to cut down on the "years of practice and selective inoculation"

Are there procedures to set up a cave for Tomme style cheese? Some way of seeding the environment in addition to the cheese itself?

I can keep the temp and RH within a close range. Thats not a problem. Only have about 45 days in the summer temps climb to the 59 - 61 degree range. The rest of the year is stable.

Possibly sterilizing the cave by washing, then spraying the walls with beneficial molds? I would think this has been done before. 

To me, producing a quality Tomme would be a goal worth attaining.

Would appreciate your thoughts.

Regards: john
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 04, 2011, 12:31:36 PM
It's really delicate unless you're dealing with volume or large thermal wells and sinks. Why? Because:

- You need to maintain temp. If you use a cooler to maintain temp, you have to slow that air down. If you don't slow the air down, it will kill off the spores due to wrong air currents.
- You need to maintain humidity, so for all that moving air, it needs to be "wet". And if you just mist and add moisture, again, it will create fluctuations in the cave conditions, making it tough to maintain stable colonies

What I would do is:

-Sanitize the heck out of an existing cave. Kill everything. Bleach it, wash with acid (phosphoric, paracetic, citric, even acetic if that's all you have), bleach again, then rinse with water.
- Paint with lime to prevent various unwanted molds from taking place.
- Either introduce isolated indigenous cultures (take some petri dishes, get an all purpose agar blend, and set it out in the open and see what grows, then propagate forward), or use commercial cultures.
- The way you introduce it is straightforward. You splash whey on all surfaces to give a food film for bacteria, let it dry some. Then you make up multiple cultures, either in one bucket, or multiple buckets. And then spray or splash it over the whey. It should all get a foothold.
- Then you load up the cave with cheese, and let all the cultures do their thing. Pick your cultures carefully. You will want a blend of b linens, geotrichum, candidum, yeasts (DH, KL), mycodore, mycoderm, and/or various indigenous cultures (pick them by smell and taste).

Basically, bomb it to sterilize, then before anything get in there to grow, saturate the entire space with the strains you want. As long as you keep rotating cheeses in and out, you should be fine. Using wood shelves helps, too.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Buck47 on March 04, 2011, 01:24:19 PM
Pav:  This sounds like a lot of fun. This is all doable, one problem I see is the part about loading the cave with cheese and rotation in and out of new cheese.

I'm only one guy, I make cheese for myself, and I'm working with an area of 4X8X7 or 224 cubic feet. I have visions of prepping this cave and proudly walking in with one four pound cheese setting it down and closing the door. I only have time to make two or three four pound cheese in a week.

It would take me a year to fill this space. Yikes !!! 

Would the low volume of cheese be a problem or is there a work around to keep the various cultures active and predominate?

Interesting in that the walls of this basement where all wash coated with lime years ago. The room is naturally cooled as it is built against two outside walls (24 inched thick limestone.) The two new walls I built have six inch insulation and a commercial walk-in cooler door (from a meat cooler) is used for access. 

Has two 3 inch vents for air circulation. Most of the time the walls have a bit of moisture on them. Never completely dry.

Could it be the size of the room is problematic as I don't see a time where it will ever be filled with more that 20 - 30 cheese at any one time.

Regards: john

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 04, 2011, 02:29:21 PM
Quote
Would the low volume of cheese be a problem or is there a work around to keep the various cultures active and predominate?

Yes, it is a slight problem. The point of saturating a cave is just that, to saturate it and keep those colonies going. To keep the colonies going, they need fresh food. Otherwise, they'll go dormant and other opportunistic molds will outcompete. But, there are a few things you can do

1) Keep inoculating each cheese and keep washing to ensure good growth. If you make cheese 1x/week and keep washing, even though there may not be a huge buildup in the air and the environment, your cheeses should be fine because you're babying them, and because you sanitized the cave, eliminating old flora.

2) Keep something other than cheese in there as food for the species. For example, get a flake of hay (or straw), steam or boil it, then dump it into a bucket full of inoculant, and then take that hay out and put it in one corner of the cave. Everything will start growing on it. If it gets too smelly, go put it in the compost bin and start again. It's not optimal, but it's a decent cheat to keep all those lovely molds, yeasts, and bacteria going

What you're trying to do is

- Maintain humidity
- Renew the food source for the flora
- Maintain temp
- Ensure air is exchanged

If your cave lacks any of these, you have to finaggle and engineer strategies to make up for the less-than-ideal conditions. This part is more art than science, constant balancing act.

The good part is that if you can pull it off, you will have achieved one of the most challenging aspects of small-scale cheese production - mimicking natural conditions synthetically for rind formation. Don't be discouraged if something doesn't work. This is not easy, but fun to try and accomplish.

Also, try to do a better job on eliminating creases/poor knit on the rind because it will improve cheese and rind quality. I posted a good trick for how to do this in one of Paul's threads.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 04, 2011, 02:47:53 PM
This is a fascinating discussion.  John, I'm sorry about the blue infestation, but wanted to wish you well on dealing with it.  Pav, thanks for the contributions, as usual.  Lots to think about when planning for a more expansive cave.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Buck47 on March 04, 2011, 03:22:12 PM
I agree, I find this discussion fascinating also. Real meat & potatoes kind of stuff.

"What you're trying to do is

- Maintain humidity
- Renew the food source for the flora
- Maintain temp
- Ensure air is exchanged"


I like the idea of using the materials I'm surrounded by. Cleaning with a caustic, lime coated walls, hay from the fields, as well as milk produced from local pastures. 

I'll need some help and guidance in the

"Either introduce isolated indigenous cultures (take some petri dishes, get an all purpose agar blend, and set it out in the open and see what grows, then propagate forward), or use commercial cultures.
- The way you introduce it is straightforward. You splash whey on all surfaces to give a food film for bacteria, let it dry some. Then you make up multiple cultures, either in one bucket, or multiple buckets. And then spray or splash it over the whey. It should all get a foothold."


Bottom line this is all very basic steps.  The art form will come with analyzing and learning how to balance the variable.  But with computers able to transfer photos, and good record keeping - it should work.

And like Pav says:

"The good part is that if you can pull it off, you will have achieved one of the most challenging aspects of small-scale cheese production - mimicking natural conditions synthetically for rind formation. Don't be discouraged if something doesn't work. This is not easy, but fun to try and accomplish."

This is the kind of thing I thrive on. I find it more fun than the make itself.

I'm optimistic.

As to the "Blue Infestation" Aaaaa! That's no hill for a climber. 

Fact is - this is just what I was hoping to find out. I now have a baseline to work from. And thanks to Pav, a clear direction as to what needs to be done.

I'm a happy camper!

I wonder if my dog likes cheese with blue mold?

Regards: john

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Buck47 on March 04, 2011, 08:50:52 PM
What I would do is:

-Sanitize the heck out of an existing cave. Kill everything. Bleach it, wash with acid (phosphoric, paracetic, citric, even acetic if that's all you have), bleach again, then rinse with water.
- Paint with lime to prevent various unwanted molds from taking place.

Question Pav:

Can I use the type of acid used in milk parlors? Then bleach (diluted two ounce per gallon water) followed by a fresh water rinse.

Am I correct, your talking Hydrated Mason Lime, mixed as a slurry and brushed on the walls & ceiling?

Thanks: john
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 04, 2011, 09:21:02 PM
Quote
Can I use the type of acid used in milk parlors?
Yes, strong acid works well.

Quote
Then bleach (diluted two ounce per gallon water) followed by a fresh water rinse.
Seems fine, don't forget to get a stiff brush and scrub everything. Lots of crevices everywhere.

Yes, mason lime, the white stuff. Not the crushed ag lime. We used salt, alum, and mason lime for wash. It's been a white, but I think it's 4-5 parts lime, 1 part salt, and a little alum? There has to be something on the Internet about making whitewash. It will get hot and paint on thin, this is fine. You will need to recoat walls from time to time.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Buck47 on March 04, 2011, 09:39:26 PM
It's been sometime since I last made white wash. Perportions about the same as yours. I would place two gallon water in plastic 5 gal container, three full coffee cans of lime & 1/2 coffee can of salt. I remember it would heat up. Mixed it in the morning let sit and used in the afternoon. Never used alum in white wash mix. Not sure where I would get it.

Fact is the only alum I know is the kind I use as an astringent / or coagulant after shaving. (a neat trick is to wet your fingers on a alum block, helps pull the skin tight) More important the older ya get.  :P


Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 09, 2011, 08:46:40 PM
I just wanted to say how grateful I am to Pav for his help here, in the recipe, in the continuing generosity in helping newbies like myself.  My first tomme, I thought, was a complete waste, but a learning experience to go with for the next several months.  I've got 3 going, and, inspired to taste this first "sacrificial" wheel monthly, my family and I tried the wheel after roughly 5 weeks.

We are, all of us, pleased.  The paste was not crumbly, as I would have thought (given the precipitous drop in and low pH of the wheel that I experienced, or thought I experienced, given the meter's reading), but creamy, wonderfully rich and - I'm really surprised by this - complex in flavor; salty, just a bit, for my taste, but my wife thought it was spot on.  Whiff of good mold, but again this is at 5 weeks and I expect all of this to come together in a more balanced way over the next two months. 

Thank you again, Pav.  This has been a fantastic journey, in a short several weeks.

Paul
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 10, 2011, 02:04:07 PM
Never be sanguine:  It's the cheese way, it seems.

I noticed today on the sampled wheel, just a few, fairly bright yellow spots of mold, or what seem like mold, in what is otherwise a brown to russet and earth rind.  I cannot call this bright orange, but truly yellow:

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/yellowcloseup.jpg)

(overall effect heightened, just a bit, otherwise it couldn't be seen)

The rind is overall much more mushroom/earth/rust colored, and the yellow spots - about 3, very widely spaced - are not quite this neon:

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/yellowcloseup-natural.jpg) 

(Closer to real appearance). 

But they are there, and do not comport with the rest of the rind's coloration.  This is bad, yes?

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 10, 2011, 02:43:42 PM
Looks like Fuligo. Common slime mold often called dog vomit mold or dog vomit fungus. Remove physically, wash over, should take care of it.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 10, 2011, 03:49:44 PM
Oh, sure, make the decision difficult for me, Pav.  I had thought it was something disgusting to worry about. ;D

Thanks.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 10, 2011, 03:57:14 PM
Actually, it's perfectly edible. :o  :o  :o
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 10, 2011, 03:58:29 PM
NOW you tell me.  I could have smeared those little treats on some bat's-breath bread I made.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on March 11, 2011, 07:13:29 AM
dog vomit mold or dog vomit fungus
Actually, it's perfectly edible.
Really!??

NOW you tell me.  I could have smeared those little treats on some bat's-breath bread I made.
Oh please, sir, may I have some more?

Does that qualify as part of the morge?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 11, 2011, 07:19:23 AM
Yep, might not be appetizing, but edible. No, you don't want that as part of the morge. Morge should be heavily proteolytic b linens, micrococci, and yeast/mold helpers.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on March 13, 2011, 01:08:01 AM
Actually, it looked to me a bit like natural cellulose. This is something that is common in milk that comes from cows of some breeds with very rich and healthy diets. (Often you can see this in French Savoie Tommes like Tomme de Savoie or Tomme Crayeuse Etc.) It is regularly mistaken for mold even y experienced fromagiers. The bright yellowish/greenish color send people into danger panic but its actually a sign of good quality milk.  I may be wrong (I can't tell the true color based on these photos) but it's a possibility to look at. Otherwise, it's probably that dog puke Pav was mentioning...
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 13, 2011, 09:15:51 AM
Iratherfly, I'd like to think so, but it came on only after a month+ of affinage.  It's probably hard to see, but it's also quite bright, almost neon, in character.  I was actually talking with a local cheesemaker, and he said to shine a blacklight on it...unfortunately, by the time that suggestion was given, the accursed spots were already excised. 

I haven't seen a return, since doing the excisions/vinegar and salt.  I do think Pav called it perfectly. 

Off topic - but this is weird timing.  My son had a science fair at school, and there was a pretty cool rocketry club (doing some serious rocketry - had no idea "civies" could get that large, that sophisticated).  The guy that runs it is Pavel, from the Czech Republic.  And on their most sophisticated rocket, they're able to record data.  On board that rocket, they are placing....slime molds.  To see how they react to that kind of acceleration.  Pav and Pavel, raising the topic of slime molds over the last few days.   8)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on March 13, 2011, 12:17:39 PM
So it is rocket science.

And along those (http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2009-10-21/news/aint-rocket-science-people-talk-about-joy-sex-dont-last-nothin-shootin-anvils/) lines....   Sorry, waaay off-topic.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 13, 2011, 12:22:50 PM
Lol...oh, Boof, sometimes, our peculiarities, as a species, bring me to roll.  ;D
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(And sometimes I despair we'll ever make it another millennium).   :o
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brandnetel on March 13, 2011, 04:01:47 PM
Finally got some pics of my goat's-milk tomme rind-in-progress, even it they are a bit sketchy:

([url]http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5252/5429435627_80425e8999_b_d.jpg[/url])
([url]http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5058/5430041882_1ed92a2ae8_b_d.jpg[/url])


As you can see, predominantly crumbly white mold (Geo?) has come up, with the occasional tiny spot of orange (linens?). I'm getting concerned, though, that the rind is growing too slowly. I've been following lb's recommended dunking/wiping schedule for about 3 weeks now, and what you see is all that has developed. I can feel that the cheeses are getting less springy and feel tougher/firmer, so I'm worried that they may be getting too dry?

FWIW, my 'cave' has been at about 53 degrees and varying between 85-95% RH. I kept it high at about 90-95% for the first two weeks or so of the regimen, then let it come down to about 85-90%.


So, here is an update on these at ~70 days in. While the broad top and bottom of the cheeses have seen a sequence of white and then orange mold grow and die back, the sides have stubbornly remained mold-free, despite my persistent efforts. You can clearly see the naked chese surface most of the way around these edges. I must say I am very worried about these being too dry - they are quite firm to the touch and seem to have shrunk somewhat in the process.

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5180/5523190256_5f3e6e40ec_z_d.jpg)

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5058/5523190268_99b4e92639_z_d.jpg)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 13, 2011, 06:16:40 PM
Brand, mine have similarly tightened up, but I expect this - am actually glad for it, to be honest.  I'm so new, so can't be authoritative, but have to say, I think your tomme looks really wonderful.

My tomme 2, at about a month:

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/PICT0023-1.jpg)

I learned a lot with these tommes, and next time, will want to try Pav's idea on closing the rind openings up, but overall, pretty happy.  A nice, mushroom and earth scent has developed, and is strengthening.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 13, 2011, 08:00:21 PM
Quote
shine a blacklight

I prefer to not do that because

1) Unless isolated you kill off neighboring flora
2) Unless you use a high powered enough light, it may not penetrate enough to eradicate
3) It is possible you will create mutants with the UV, which might not be the best thing to do.

definitely an option. That tomme looks good. :).
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 13, 2011, 11:06:28 PM
Quote
shine a blacklight

I prefer to not do that because

1) Unless isolated you kill off neighboring flora
2) Unless you use a high powered enough light, it may not penetrate enough to eradicate
3) It is possible you will create mutants with the UV, which might not be the best thing to do.

definitely an option. That tomme looks good. :).

Oh, I see, thanks, Pav.  The maker was in to dine at my wife's work, they talked and I got the info secondhand.  I had thought this was for confirmation/detection (bioluminescence) and not elimination.  I hear you on the advisability/efficacy of the method for getting rid of mold, and I wouldn't want to go that way, either...a sort of cudgel when my surgeon's care would be much better.

At any rate, knock on wood, it seems the few small patches of fuligo, once gone, were all I was contending with (a serious knock on wood, because I realize I'm far from out of the woods). 

Thanks for the encouraging note on the wheel.  And for the recipe, again, Pav.  Really nice to see the first pressed cheeses I've made transform like this.  :)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 14, 2011, 01:21:33 AM
Bit of a bump, I know, but as it's more of a general question on air exchange for corynebacteria development in these cheeses, thought it might be useful.  I know Francois talked about the importance of "airing out" washed rind and bloomy-rind cheeses, if in a small cooler (as I have).  Yet I believe it's also important to try to maintain temp (ideally, RH as well), and not submit the wheels to a warming period of any kind.  Francois, or Pav - if trying to stage a later linens or related development, how effective is merely opening and closing the cooler say, twice a day, in providing adequate O2, when the red smear isn't the primary component? 

On the other hand, if wanting to do a true, red smear cheese (maybe this is for another thread; if so, I'll move it), is it almost imperative to provide some sort of continuing air exchange, or an episodic blast of air, when opening the door and turning the wheels?  Maybe, a small air pump and line, cooled first through the (unused) freezer compartment, into the refrigerator/cave, and a small outlet hose?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on March 14, 2011, 03:36:36 AM
Sorry for replying a day too late ArnaudForestier but your description sound EXACTLY like cellulose. It appears at 4-6 weeks and it is neon yellowish or neon greenish color. Not a mold; just some nutritional goodness.  Where did you get the milk? The next time you are in a cheese shop, look for Tomme Crayeuse and carefully examine the rind. It may have neon spotting like the one you described. If it indeed looks the same - this is cellulose

I second Linuxboy here on the UV light. This is how you stabilize cheese to stop the rind from working. Don't so that unless your cheese is done aging already!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 14, 2011, 06:58:55 AM
Iratherfly, thanks.  Unfortunately, I can't know, because I cut them away.  I'll check the crayeuse out, next time I can find some locally. 

On the blacklight use, again, not sure whether this maker was suggesting it for detecting, or killing. 
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 14, 2011, 09:42:19 AM
Hard to tell exactly, but to me, cellulose comes up in greater frequency in the rind, more of a mottled kind of appearance. I also have not seen it frequently in US cow's milk. And the color, although bright yellow, doesn't have that full neon kind of "glow"... it's more of a matte look when the light hits it. Might be, though. Thanks, irather.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 14, 2011, 11:38:07 AM
Quote
how effective is merely opening and closing the cooler say, twice a day, in providing adequate O2, when the red smear isn't the primary component? 

Moderately effective. It needs more, but without a large, controlled environment, we do the best we can. Growth will be slower on candidum and b linens without enough oxygen. And, you may develop off-flavors because the bacteria/molds are stressed. I would say in an enclosed space like a plastic tub, the humidity is high enough, so opening/closing the lid should be ok.

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 14, 2011, 11:43:29 AM
Quote from: linuxboy
Growth will be slower on candidum and b linens without enough oxygen. And, you may develop off-flavors because the bacteria/molds are stressed

The thought of stressing my friends stresses me out.  If not air exchange, at least the notion of a fresh air supply - an aquarium pump driving filtered air, into the chamber?  What do you think?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 14, 2011, 11:49:19 AM
fresh air supply achieves same effect as air exchange. Point is that old air out, new air in. In a cave, you do this by venting the heavy ammoniated air from the bottom, and by using convection to spread new air around.

If you use a pump, you need to equalize the temp and humidity ASAP because chances are that pump will be pushing in dry, warmer air. Also no good. And you also need to slow the air down because you can't have rapid air movement, cheese will not age properly, and rind will not develop properly.

You should be OK opening up a few times/day. I've done that before, and many other people do, too.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on March 14, 2011, 12:13:36 PM
You need to focus on circulating the air rather than bringing new filtered air. You will deplete the amount of microorganisms in your cave and reduce moisture. That being said you will still need some new fresher air. I let the Tommes out of the cave for 30 min once every 2-3 days. They get to breath. Then I put them into the cave that is still abundant with the microorganisms.

Back to cellulose for a second, regarding what Pav wrote:  my understanding is that it depends on the feed and cow breed as well as aging conditions. You see it a lot in Savoie region cheese and especially in cheese that was aged in volcanic caves and feed of vegetation common to these areas
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 14, 2011, 02:50:47 PM
I guess I was talking of the corynebacteria need for O2, which I didn't imagine they're getting in any appreciable way with the limited opening daily.  As to air "exchange," if the door is closed and only had a small-gauge inlet in, I presumed I wasn't doing much in the way of true exchange (and not driving an NH3 out), because there isn't a good outlet; more, just to bring O2 to the linens and co. 

The other issue I'm concerned about is that I'm leaving town, and I will only have a sitter to turn the cheeses once, likely, over the course of  week.  That will leave the wheels unturned, and door closed, for 3 1/2 days.  So I was thinking that at least the intro of air would mitigate the issue, but I hear you both, inviting more harm than it would help, if it would help at all.

Interesting on the cellulose, Iratherfly, really fascinating.  I use simply Sassy Cow, a homogenized, but well-done regional milk.  I use it for everything, just to gain my proficiency.  (taking stock, seems almost nuts that I've only made 5 wheels of hard cheese so far...learned so much here, with every wheel). 

I do recall seeing some colorfully mottled rinds, but would need to see it up close, to compare - these 2, 3 spots were really neon in character, like a chartreuse-yellow-bright highlighter, something like this. 

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on March 15, 2011, 01:00:05 PM
Hmmm.... if your milk is homogenized there is less chance for the acute appearance of cellulose because all the butterfat have been crushed. I suggest to ALWAYS use non-homogenized (AKA "creamline") milk. It is so much better, you will see the difference right away.  It's the closest you can get to raw milk - especially if the milk is still organic, from grass-fed cows and goes through a standard pasteurization rather than HTST process.

I always suggest to check on the feed of the animal (ask the farmer or email the company. Explain that you are making cheese and you need to choose the best cheese for their milk so you would like to know what is the current feed. As long as it doesn't sound judgmental they will probably be excited to help. Only ask for the current feed because this changes seasonally and they need to know you understand it).

On the Sassy Cow web site there is a photo of imprisoned cows eating grain (though for their organic milk they had a photo of free grazing cows in the pastures) hmmm....  Try using milk fro grass-fed cows whenever possible. Some cows need the grain for extra energy in the cold winter but feeds like silage may cause them to get bloated with gas; this action continues to develop in your cheese (I've had a cheddar batch exploding on me at month 3 due to poor cow feed once!)  If I would have known that, I would have used that milk for something more fitting like a chaource.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 16, 2011, 09:49:54 AM
Just another data point on the fuligo.  Firstly, the rinds are quite hard by now, so without knowing more about cellulose, it just seems intuitively odd to me that a milk cellulose would find itself resting on top of this (hard) rind, at this point, unless it's something the rind itself expresses - Irather, you mention it shows up after 4-6 weeks.  Do you have any background on how this works - how it would be expressed through a paste and (hard) rind? 

Secondly, additional "spots" have returned, same treatment given.  It just looks a slightly raised patch, neon, etc., and seems like something "foreign."  But again, I'm not familiar enough with either cellulose, what it looks like in this context, or fuligo to confirm. 

Irather:  yes, I value grazing, too.  In fact, I was recently part of a grazing conference, stretching over several days, here in the Midwest U.S.  Again, at this juncture, I've made a total of 5 wheels for aging, and until I feel I've got the technical chops down, I'm choosing a milk that works (at less than half the cost) of creamline milks.  The Sassy Cow has performed very well, in my opinion, and in fact cheeses made from it have won many awards, in our country.  Anyway, yep, grazing's good.

Beyond that, my first tomme was a creamline milk (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,6280.msg44635.html#msg44635), and there were substantial issues with fat globules never solubilizing.  Can't find the post (Pav, if reading this, can confirm whether I've remembered correctly), but yes, agreed, raw or creamline is obviously preferred - so long as it's truly fresh.  If not, then it seems this issue of fat globules being immiscible can come up.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: FRANCOIS on March 16, 2011, 02:28:24 PM
In industry any recipe that uses P:F ratios of 1 or less (high fat milks) will homogonise the milk, otherwise too much fat is lost in the whey.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 16, 2011, 08:55:55 PM
Well, I know I'm being impatient...but it's my first wheel, man!

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/PICT0034-1.jpg)

45 days.  I know, I know; but given the odd make, and expected weird aging profile, I didn't expect this to be a long-aging cheese.  Creamy, and I'm really surprised by this, as I expected a really crumbly paste.  Very flavorful.  To my taste, a bit too much salt, and slightly tipped to a taint of cave mold - too much of the mycodore?; would have wanted more mushroom and nuttiness.  But a first effort, and overall, can't complain.  Thanks, Pav. And Francois.  And Iratherfly, and everyone else who contributed to my knowledge and learning.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brandnetel on March 16, 2011, 10:23:06 PM
Wow, AF, that looks quite impressive!

I find that apparent size can be deceiving in these close-up shots - just how big is this cheese. A two-pounder? Larger?

Curious also about the exterior - what can you tell us about it? Is it mostly white mold like G. Candidum with some natural areas of rind showing through, or are there other things going on? I am intrigued by the contrast between the rough, varied surface and the apparently smooth paste which appears to be mostly free of mechanical openings.

When you say a touch of 'cave mold' in the taste, do you mean in the paste itself or the rind? Are you eating the rind? Any more detail you can provide on texture and flavor nuances would be welcome.

Very inspiring, you are really tempting me to cut into one of my own in-progress cheeses too . . .
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 16, 2011, 11:09:09 PM
Thanks, Brandnetel.  This was a really weird make - if my (original) pH meter was anything close, the pH was way off, way too acidic too early, and I did expect a really dry, crumbly paste. 

The rind is fairly russet in color, with orange overtone, I guess I'd call it, though there's some white (geo?) in the mechanical openings in the rind.  Pretty thin, but I expected this, as it's young, and I have been trying the cheese over the last week or so. 

The rind is what smelled quite a bit of cave mould - but then, I don't know if this is "normal" given the mycodore component, or other moulds (edited to say, "smelled," as even this is evanescing over the last hour or two...weird).  Oddly, I'm getting more of this mould characteristic today, than I did a week ago - and the other wheels still smell richly of more mushroom, than any mould. 

When I first sliced it, I felt the paste, too, had the aroma, but weirdly enough, after sitting on the plate for awhile, this evanesced quite a bit.  The knife passing through the rind mould, when I sectioned the cheese into wedges? 

It's flawed, for a tomme, in my opinion; it's missing some of the gentle nuttiness and mushroom that I would hope for.  There is a savoriness to it, which I find really nice, a kind of umami effect, but at least on the original tasting, this was followed fairly quickly by this cave impression. More acid on the tongue (gives me a faint impression of cheddar, though nothing of cheddar texture), just a very tiny bit too much salt, by my taste, though my wife feels it's spot on.

A decent cheese, nonetheless, taste surprised me by its richness and length (something that came, too, with its first try a week or so ago), for so young a cheese; and I do like the texture very much.  All else aside, I'm so much more pleased than anything I expected going in, given that it was my first wheel, and so much seemed to go wrong.  As Pav has said, tommes are apparently forgiving, and I think his recipe must really be so, because I really do think by all rights, this should have been a disaster. 

It's not - I'm taking it up for my wife's grandma's 90th, and having the courage to pass it around to in-laws. ;D

Quote
Very inspiring, you are really tempting me to cut into one of my own in-progress cheeses too . . .

Noooooooooo!  Let 'em go, let 'em grow!   ;D

Edit:  Sorry, forgot to indicate, this was 4#, 11 oz.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on March 17, 2011, 12:32:17 AM
Very nice, Paul! I wish I had been that successful with my first cheese, or second...or third! Certainly one to be proud of. The rind looks to have quite a bit of character too.

I hope my cheeses that were assisted by my ExStick turn out half as good looking.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 17, 2011, 04:27:55 AM
Well, thanks, Boof!  Baby-stepped through this by Pav and Francois, so they're really owed some serious cheese.  (I mean the real kind, not just the accolades, here). 

Oh, and can patience be taught?  It feels like the morning after, and humpty-dumpty's wheel can't be put back together again. ;D
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 18, 2011, 07:44:05 AM
Pav, don't know if you're around, but I know you talked of a "trick" somewhere, which was a means to effectively seal a tomme rind, to forestall openings and unwanted mold developments.  Sorry, can't recall if this was a post, or a PM. 

My 2nd tomme, so far, seems to be my golden child.  Everything looks really good, and just brushing back once a week. 

The first tomme was too acidic, too early, and though it's "OK," lessons learned there.

As of this morning, the 3rd tomme has seen the return of several, albeit tiny, patches of blue - all of them, deeply buried in the tight, nether regions of existing openings, or in openings I've carved, to excise former blue infestations.  I took a more radical excision approach to an area where the blue was once before, as I suspect I didn't rid it of sporulation on the first attempt. 

The good is that the "sample" I tried is out of this world, and that's at a mere month.  Far different from the wheel already tapped, exactly what I'm hoping for in a tomme, in taste and texture.  So, I'm bummed to have to beat up the wheel, with so much micro-carving of what is a beautifully developing rind. 

C'est la vie.  Just some data points for others, if it's useful.

And a circuitous way back to asking, would you mind either posting once again the warming "trick" you mentioned, to seal the tomme rind and make it smooth at the conclusion of the make, or pointing, if you recall, where you made the post? 

Thanks, Pav.

Paul
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 18, 2011, 07:58:34 AM
Yes, the trick is to create a temp gradient, or outright warm the curd when you're forming it. After you pack it under whey, and plop the entire curd chunk in your cloth-lined mold, it should have all sorts of surface pits and imperfections.

Take the mold, fold the cloth over, put the follower on top, and put the entire thing in hot whey, or hot water. About 110-115F hot. You want it to be hot enough to really create curd fusion, but not so hot that you dehydrate the curd excessively. The temp gradient will also create a slight moisture gradient - the outer layer will be more dry. Not a huge deal unless you really hold it in the water for a long time. It actually helps a little with rind formation when done right.

Anyway, you plop the entire mold in the hot water or whey, and then pour more hot water into the recesses of the mold follower, on top. Press by hand, press really firmly. You can even press unevenly, one corner at a time, making 1/8 turns. Press down and squeeze and really embed the cloth into the surface. Unwrap, flip, repeat, unwrap, flip, repeat, until it looks done. Make sure you soak the cloth in whey beforehand.

What you're doing here is a hybrid technique. It's the approach used for large comte and alpine styles, but they use a huge screw press, and really hot curd, and a huge wheel. Here, wheel is smaller, and needs less weight. But, the curd isn't really hot enough to do it properly, so you have to warm it up some. But not warm it up enough to dry it too much or lose fat. As soon as you have the impression of the cloth, wrap it in cloth one more time, and put a slight weight on the mold (10 lbs or so). Should be good to go, you'll get a great cheese. Even if the edges will have wrinkles, it'll be OK because there are no fractures to the inside, so if something like a blue grows, you can rub and scrape it off. The worst is when you have fractures inside, and the mold gets into the crevices, and it's a blue mold.

The other option is to keep all the surface imperfections, but use a rind blend that gives you a full, candidum, or thick geo mat in 1-3 days after the make. That will protect against unwanted molds through competition. If you do this, keep humidity 95-98, and high O2 exchange, then cut the humidity back to 80-85 to slow things down, and then knock back the growth and start layering morge on top of the mycelium mat. This type is a very tricky rind to do, have seen many commercial makers fail at it, would not recommend for beginners. But great when done right.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 18, 2011, 08:13:03 AM
Great, thanks Pav. 

Quote
The worst is when you have fractures inside, and the mold gets into the crevices, and it's a blue mold.

This is where some have showed up - some of the openings are like funnels or conical shapes, ending in tight fissures or pinpoint holes; and it's here where some of the blue has shown up.  To really get it out and make a smooth "crater", I had to make a pretty substantial divot, this time.  Lessons learned. 

Quote
...use a rind blend that gives you a full, candidum, or thick geo mat in 1-3 days after the make.

Are you distinguishing p. candidum from geo, here? In other words, blend in some p. candidum or geo, to get the thick mat? 

Something I'm intrigued by (somewhere in the Dixon journals, I think) is the idea of doing an orderly succession of flora, myself, as opposed to inoculating everything at once in the make-milk, and in the wash blend, and just letting them fight it out.  In other words, trying a succession of DH or KL, then Geo, then P. candidum (as I understand the geo can keep the P. candidum in check), then the corynebacteria. 
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 18, 2011, 08:17:35 AM
depends on the strain of geo and candidum. Can use both or alone. Point is to create a growth, a physical mat that is dug into the cheese, then kill that off or slow it down, then wash over that, and then manage the rind.

too much work for me to micromanage rinds by inoculating and reinoculating. I wash over, let them figure it out the succession. Different ways about it. Often, harder to micromanage than making small adjustments and seeing the result of the adjustment. There's usually a lag period of 2-5 days between doing something and seeing any outcome.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 18, 2011, 08:27:26 AM
Thanks, Pav.  So basically allow the mat and brush back, or hit with a higher-salt (6-10%?) brine, to die-back, then hit with your normal wash and washing routine (say, go back to the 3% PLA/Myco.)?

Hear you on the micro-work, and my instincts tell me that not only will it be very hard to manage, but will likely lead to a lesser result - so often, it seems, the gap between the desired micro-management and the ability to truly do it means nature itself proves Occam's razor (which I think is what you're saying).  I think I'd like to try it sometime, just as a sacrificial experiment, to really look at stages, if I could achieve something like "stages" in any realistic way.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 18, 2011, 08:35:21 AM
I like humidity controls better than salt here. I like the mat to dry out and be stuck to the cheese. Think of it like paint. Instead of painting the cheese like you do for dutch types (PVA paint with nat), you let nature do the painting and grow a second skin everywhere. Then when you have the skin, do what you need. Rather tricky to do.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on March 18, 2011, 08:49:57 AM
Another excellent, practical tip to file in the techniques folder.

Thanks, linuxboy.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 18, 2011, 08:54:43 AM
OK, great.  I know you're slammed, so will let this go until you get a chance as I know you're busy and I think I'm going to try for a patterned, but sealed rind (folks, I'm thinking of something like Consider Bardwell's tommes, 2:20 on (http://www.eattv.com/watch/more/Consider_Bardwell_Farm_Artisanal_Cheese)).

However - if and when you get the chance, Pav - when I think of trying to control geo with humidity, I think of upping the RH to allow linens to take hold, not drying it out; unless we're talking literally about a physical drying out process, dropping the RH down to 70-75-80% (?) for a period, so you now have a mycelia-"rooted" mat, anchored well into the cheese, but then one no longer flying along at an optimal clip.  Is this what you mean?  Get your bloomy or geo mat, then dry it out for a period of days at, say, 75%RH, then begin regular washing routine?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 18, 2011, 08:59:52 AM
Quote
Is this what you mean?
Yes, it is. Second skin. Possible to do it the other way you mentioned, too, but that's even more tricky to time the cascades of growth. If you don't dry it out, what you have is a poor bond of the mycelium to the cheese, and then if you layer morge on top of it, you'll get slip skin. Really do not recommend anyone try this until you master at least a basic PLA wash and understand how your specific strains work together.

Also, the closed rind approach I detailed works for many cheeses, not just tomme/toma styles. I've said here maybe a dozen times that you don't need a cheese press for most cheeses when making cheese, and that's one way you can achieve an excellent appearance and proper rind without a press.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 18, 2011, 09:05:11 AM
Thanks very much, Pav. 

Everyone, heading out of town for a week, and doing a tomme with these thoughts and techniques in mind on my return.  Just wanted to thank Pav for all his help, and otherwise say to everyone, have a great week.

Paul
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 18, 2011, 11:43:24 AM
Just wanted to add something else, and I guess as Iratherfly and I were discussing milk (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1591.msg46995.html#msg46995) earlier, this is as good a place to mention it as elsewhere.

A neighbor highly recommended Castle Rock (http://www.castlerockfarms.net/locations.php) organic milk, a creamline.  She said that whenever she gets it, it's actually so fresh that the cream hasn't separated out.  Just called our local carrier.  They said they place their order Sunday, the cows are milked Monday, and the milk comes in on Wednesday.  They're available in Minn., WI and Ill. (sorry, for non Midwesterners).  FYI.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on March 21, 2011, 01:26:15 AM
That sounds great Paul! Also getting the milk within 48 hours when there are still about 12 days of freshness left on it is great. You will see what difference it makes!

By the way, the cream separation and floating to the top happens because the milk is cooled down below the cow body temp and fat just flows and becomes harder in cooler temperature.  In homogenized milk it doesn't happen because the fat have been crushed down and emulsified into the milk, kind of like egg, vinegar and oil making mayonnaise -never to part ways again.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brandnetel on April 01, 2011, 10:34:53 PM
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5068/5581230620_cc759d4fd5_z.jpg)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5063/5581230622_e79be28875_z.jpg)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5059/5581230630_751c075f3a_z.jpg)

I finally tried the goat's milk cheese I posted about earlier in this thread. It's so different than I anticipated that I almost wonder if I ought to put this somewhere else! Anyhow, it's about 90 days old now, and I had washed the rind with a slurry made from some different cheeses, including some stinky ones. I didn't start washing until about 2 weeks in and the rind was very slow to come up and never covered the whole cheese. From early on I was concerned it would be too dry.

Well, as you can see, that is in fact the case. Texture-wise it's more like an Italian-style hard cheese and it is too dry and brittle to even slice easily. It tastes alright - neutral and a little waxy with increasing goatiness into the finish and some salt. I wouldn't think there was anything off about it if I ate it and did not know what had been intended. The thin orangy-brown rind is probably the most interesting part of the cheese, with a nutty/savory quality to it and some more complexity.

Anyhow, so this was my first effort using the tomme recipe. I have some more variants coming down the pipeline after this too.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on April 02, 2011, 02:11:21 AM
Wow, after only 90 days?! That seems amazing. Nice pics. Interesting cheese.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on April 04, 2011, 08:55:26 AM
Pav, I hope it's OK to hijack your thread with pics of these efforts?  (don't worry, only one more tomme from my first round of 3 makes - promise if I stay in tommes, will create an "Arnaud's tomme odysseys" thread... ;D).

Well, after waking up to more blue bits on this wheel, an issue from the start, rather than digging another divit in the rind and going forward, decided to enjoy this cheese (this is "tomme 3," my 3rd cheese) at just shy of 2 months:

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/DSCN0306.jpg)

Very happy.  Firm but yielding very nicely to the slice, creamy, and mild but flavorful.  Not screamingly funky, just flavorful, balanced, a nice touch of character from the rind (which is edible - good, flavorful) without some of the moldy concerns I had from my first wheel (and still not sure that was a flaw, or expected, from the mycodore).  Will make a nice lunch with good jura wine and fruit. 

Thanks again, Pav!

@Brand, I know you were disappointed in the cheese texture, but I have to say, I love the look of your rind.  My "tomme 2" at 2 months is getting pretty rustic and if I can hold off for 4 months, I will hope for as equally as beautiful a rind.

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: kookookachoo on April 04, 2011, 09:51:47 AM
I'm seriously drooling over the cheese photos...to the point that I raided my fridge to see what I can munch on..cheese for breakfast, really can't go wrong!  (Alas, I only have some store-bought havarti, a slice of leftover Manchego-not homemade, either & some homemade feta...I settled on the Manchego, with honey-drizzled pita chips!). 

I have a 4 day old (I actually have to double-check here in a bit) tomme in my cellar.  I'm kind of a bit worried, as my cellar has been going at 50-55 (warmer at the end of the afternoon), but only been going 75-80% RH.  I've quickly ran a couple of buckets of water there earlier, hope that will make a difference.  For now, I have no cheese that has any introduction, in the make or wash, of any other culture apart from the meso & thermo they needed.  I take that back, the tomme does, accidentally (my hubby errr nicely helped me out).  I'm a bit squeamish about adding anything at this point...one: I don't think I will be able to successfully create a good-tasting cheese with the little I know (even when reading, re-reading, and re-re-reading the posts here!!), and I will be out of town in 2 weeks, so I won't be able to check my cheeses daily like now. 

From what I read, the introduction of these flora add a more wonderful taste.  I'm still gingerly walking my way through all this, but I would like to try one (just one, for now), as a practice, if you will. I haven't decided what to do with my tomme yet.  Right now, I just have PLA, I've p. candidum & p. shermanii...apart from my usual meso & thermo cultures.  I have geo (13), corynebacteria-both from Dairy Connection, coming in the mail.   Sigh.  I know I'm getting ahead of myself by getting them, but didn't know how if they would ship well in the Illinois 95-100+F summer heat. 

Anyway, any advice would be oh-so-greatly appreciated!

(Sorry for the hijack!  This is one of my daily-read topics)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on April 04, 2011, 06:15:04 PM
Went ahead and took a pic of that "tomme 2 at 2 months", mentioned above:

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/DSCN0309.jpg)

What's odd is that this rind seems much more pronounced, though the 2 cheeses are a mere few days apart - same brine make, same washing schedule, cheeses 3" apart on the shelf, totally different rind.  Will be interesting to go back and compare make notes, to see if I can divine a reasoning....

kookookachoo (gawd, I love saying that username... ;D), my worry is that with your RH that low, you're going to end up with cracks developing in your rind (I really don't know - just know that 70-75% is what I shoot for in my "drying room," when drying some of these, after the brine.  If you could get it higher, I suspect you'd end up with a happier result. 

On not wanting to mess it up, fully understand...I'm the same way.  I've had to learn to be happy with screwing things up royally, and exploiting it to learn from it.  I say, if have the inkling to try for a funky wash, go for it! - I'd just recommend recording everything you do, and everything you get, so you can gain from it. 

(Oh...and yes, I'm a worrier as well...can you get someone to watch your cheeses during those 2 weeks, to turn them?)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: kookookachoo on April 04, 2011, 09:06:41 PM
Aha!  See, that's why I made a couple of Manchegos!  I'm really curious to see if they both turn out the same way.  I actually started out with one, about 10 mins after the milk had been sitting in the pot (not had the heat turned on yet), I thought, "hmmm", called a friend to see if she had a bigger pot I could use as my makeshift double broiler (the bigger pot) & transferred the other half to it.   It was a bit harrowing stirring them both, pretty much at the same time, with a couple of seconds lapses in between.  So, yep, I find out in a few months! 

I like the look of your cheese.  I'm still at the point that none of my rinds have any sort of attractive characteristics to them.  At all.  Apart from the small divots & fold lines from one side due to the cheesecloth, well..they're...bland-looking!  Sigh. 

Ok, I solved my humidity problem after dinner.  I got a small humidifier on clearance today (marked down to $15, from almost $40), it's staying in the cellar indefinitely.  I have really been fretting over the low humidity, I tell you!

(As far as the turning, I've got it covered, thanks for worrying with me, too!   ;D  A friend is coming by, in the evening to do that for me,  I owe her a couple of weeks of dog-sitting/dog visiting, for when she goes on vacation...so it's pretty even)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brandnetel on April 05, 2011, 12:33:10 PM
Thanks for the good thoughts, AF.  I am learning the hard way how little cheese one gets out of a one or two-pounder! I am enjoying sharing my goat cheese, but I have 'repackaged' it as more like an Italian-style hard cheese when presenting it to folks. I am on a quest to make a 3 month old cheese that is still moist, and not there yet, although my next tommes are still feeling a bit springy at 45 days, so hope is still alive! I'm also still tinkering with maximizing cave humidity.

I am jealous of your larger wheels. I must say. Very interested to see what appears in the photo to be stark white paste - this is cow's milk, right? And the thick yellowy rind which appears to penetrate into the cheese maybe as much as 3/8" and be very consistent in color.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on April 06, 2011, 03:08:11 AM
Yep, it's cow's milk.  It is interesting, as you're right, it really is a stark white paste.  It will be interesting to see what the other tomme looks like inside, after a month or two. 

When I was a brewer, I once entered a beer into a competition; it did well, preliminary round, got second in the Midwest (never made it to the Finals, as my in-laws guzzled the sample bottles before I could send them to the Nationals ::)).  "Seven Suns", literally, a kitchen-sink of 7 malts left in my larder.  I had a hunch of what I was looking for, but "named" the second part, "Strong Scotch Ale" only after the beer was made.  Your "Goat Parma" sounds delicious. ;)

Good luck with your aging tommes. :)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iain on July 18, 2011, 09:56:38 AM
Quote
I am working on a detailed howto for different rind treatments.

Just curious if this has happened somewhere. I'm really interested to read it.

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on July 18, 2011, 10:11:43 AM
Next year, I'm releasing all my thousands of hours of research on this over the past decade. Trying to make it the definitive reference, so it takes a lot of time. PM in the meantime if you need help.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Brandnetel on July 18, 2011, 11:01:53 AM
Next year, I'm releasing all my thousands of hours of research on this over the past decade. Trying to make it the definitive reference, so it takes a lot of time. PM in the meantime if you need help.

!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Susan on July 18, 2011, 07:42:26 PM
I'd like to reserve  copy!!!! ;D ;D  Sign me up!
Susan
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iain on July 25, 2011, 09:06:23 AM
Next year, I'm releasing all my thousands of hours of research on this over the past decade. Trying to make it the definitive reference, so it takes a lot of time. PM in the meantime if you need help.

Wow. Looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iain on September 26, 2011, 10:05:53 PM
I was planning on making this tomorrow with 10 gallons mixed raw goat and cow milk. I just realized, though, that I'm out of MA4001. I do have MA11 and TA61. Think I could do 1/2tsp of the MA and 1/8tsp of the TA and get a similar result?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: elkato on November 04, 2011, 10:41:41 PM
Here is a picture of my Tomme,
Linuxboy recipe for washed curds followed to the letter with 100% sheep milk, on the side some ricotta from the heated whey, any advice on rind treatment?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on November 05, 2011, 10:25:24 AM
Elkato, what rind mix treatments do you have on hand, if any?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: FRANCOIS on November 06, 2011, 12:23:16 AM
Here are some tips for any washed rind cheese.  If you can dose the brine with cultures do it.  If not about 6 hours after brine give them a dip in a 3% dosed solution.  Dip the cheeses daily for the first three days and flip.  After day 3 just flip them.  Wait until you can see a slight fuzz growing, should be 4-7 days.  This means that the rind neutralisers have done their job (PLA, OFR, KL71, GEO etc.) and it's ready for SR3 to start kicking in.  Now lightly, and I mean lightly, brush the rinds daily with the same 3% solution.  Keep doing this until any geo or candidum moulds have stopped growing, this could take up to 14 additional days.  Once the rind has stabilised, wrap the cheese in glasene paper and age it at 4C.  Should be ready in a month or more depending on recipe and format.

If you want to "wash back" from older cheeses just scrub them first and be sure to get all their funky goodness stuck in the brush and sloshed in the wash solution before you start on the young ones.

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: elkato on November 06, 2011, 10:48:35 AM
Linux, Francois:
I don't have at hand mix rind inoculates at this moment.

 and just finished reading other post where you describe how to wash with 2% brine and a small portion of the rind of a tomme pureed in distilled water.
my tomme (first one) has been in the cave (small wine fridge at 50F, with a water container to increase RH, the RH meter is coming) for 10 days along several wheel's of manchegos and Goudas.

the tomme recipe went well floc. time was 14min.  curds matted well under whey, I probably used much weight for the pressing 15kg for a 2kg cheese overnight, and around 12h in saturated brine I choose the washed curds variation.
I could try the puree rind wash but maybe the manchegos will also develop the mold/yeast?
 
or since I cant control at this moment the temperature and humidity for the required steps in the mix rind treatment I should just leave it with a natural rind?

and one more off topic question: at this stage I am experimenting with different cheeses and variation of recipes to transform the small amount of sheep milk I am produsing, so not taking into account local markets and costumers if it was you, and for yourself what cheese, or variation of a cheese would you make with a small amount of 100% seep milk (hopefully a make that has a recipe available)
many tnxs!!
 

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on November 08, 2011, 11:36:46 PM
Oh man, with sheep's milk? I would go for a wild rind Tomme like a Pyrenees / Basque styles of Tomme (http://www.murrayscheese.com/prodinfo.asp?number=20058200000 (http://www.murrayscheese.com/prodinfo.asp?number=20058200000)), or Roquefort type blue, or a softer bloomy type. Sheep based Brie or Reblochon style cheeses are very decadent and rich. One more cheese to think of is something in the style of the Spanish Torta de la Serena. (http://www.atlantica-co.com/products/8/7/torta-de-la-serena (http://www.atlantica-co.com/products/8/7/torta-de-la-serena)).
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: elkato on December 26, 2011, 10:11:27 AM
Since my last post where I was clueless to surface/rind inoculates I have now a reblochon and a Camembert in the cave. I have KL71 geo PC and B. linnens
I  have a question regarding Francois recipe for a washed rind tomme (last post)
Lets say I have a mini wheel tomme (1Lb) and I do the geo.KL71 B.Linnens wash right after the brine (in its still rindless state) until the linnens kicks in then wrap it  and put it in the regular fridge (4c) for a month will it age at that temperature?
will it turn into a reblochon type (maybe good)?
how do I keep the geo linnens at bay so it just forms a dry interesting crust without softening The paste? is such a thing possible in a small wheel?
Merry Christmas to all!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on December 26, 2011, 12:57:47 PM
I think reducing moisture (higher make temp or smaller curd cutting) will prevent any major softening of the paste.
4c will slow down any bacterial activity considerably.

Whats the reason to lowering the aging temp for a month?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: elkato on December 26, 2011, 08:34:15 PM
Thank you Tomer.. I was just trying to understand  Francois advice for a washed rind tomme (this thread a couple of post up) and trying to apply it to tomme mini-wheels (1lb) maybe this small size can only be marketed rind-less  (vac/pac) or it will be all rind and no paste.
 following Yoav's advice I am going to make them larger
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on December 26, 2011, 10:28:15 PM
Larger is usually better all though im not sure thick rind is an issue with these higher moisture levels all though I have seen some firming up of my washed tomme despite the high humidty (90+ %).
Ive done a smallish one of around 800 grams.

Its 4 months now and im gone open it and let you know how far the mold has "eaten" the cheese :)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: elkato on December 27, 2011, 08:20:43 PM
I put a couple of 500gm tomme wheels in containers together with the ripening reblochons, they are beginning to catch the linnens rind, i will see how they progress
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: NimbinValley on January 02, 2012, 08:43:51 PM
I think I need a bit of a theory lesson with regard to "L" and "D" and "LD" type starters.  Could some one point me in the right direction please? 

The reason I ask is that some of my washed curd tommes have started to expand...they are now 3 weeks old.  I have recently started to use FD as a starter culture which is I understand is a gas producer (and there fore a 'D' type starter?) so I guess this is the reason.  Unless it is blowing because of coliforms etc.

So if the FD is going to cause gas production does this mean that I didn't press the cheese enough to knit the curds better and thereby create a strong enough curd to resist expansion?  Or should I expect expansion?

Or maybe I just used too much starter culture?

Any assistance will be gratefully received.

Happy new year to all.

NVD.

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 02, 2012, 09:08:19 PM
I posted this in a past thread but cant find it. I found
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,8509.msg59881.html#msg59881 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,8509.msg59881.html#msg59881)
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,6644.msg46978.html#msg46978 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,6644.msg46978.html#msg46978)

The gist of it is that L has leuconostoc, D has diacetylactis, and LD has both. FD will form small holes, but nothing drastic. Not enough to puff out the wheel. If you have late blowing 2-3 weeks in, it's propionic or coliform, or something similar.

Quote
So if the FD is going to cause gas production does this mean that I didn't press the cheese enough to knit the curds better and thereby create a strong enough curd to resist expansion?

Not at all, no.
Quote
Or should I expect expansion?

No, it may form small eyes, but it will not cause the wheel to expand.

Quote
Or maybe I just used too much starter culture?

Not likely; I think you have a contaminant. How does it smell?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: elkato on January 02, 2012, 09:17:19 PM
This chart has some very simplified info.  I hope you resolve the gas issue!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: NimbinValley on January 02, 2012, 10:36:06 PM
Thanks for that.

I am in the process of commissioning a new water treatment plant so I guess that is the answer.

How does the citrate production/degradation pathway work? And what is its significance?

The cheese smells fine so I will age it out and see what happens.

NVD.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 02, 2012, 11:22:49 PM
Quote
How does the citrate production/degradation pathway work?
Without being too technical the gist of it is that citrate is present in milk, and some bacteria utilize it for energy, alongside lactose utilization. If you want to know about biochemistry or bioenergetics, I can go deeper into it, but it tends to get rather extreme in the technobabble.
Quote
And what is its significance?
Mostly, flavor and aroma formation. Especially in producing diacetyl compounds in cheese. Used commonly for cultured butter, for example, or also for gas formation on cheeses like gouda for the small eyes.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: NimbinValley on January 03, 2012, 02:51:24 PM
ok.

So if we want gas and buttery notes we need the citrate to be metabolised.  And this metabolism is mainly done by L and D type starters respectively.

NVD

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 03, 2012, 03:06:50 PM
Yep, exactly.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on January 03, 2012, 10:06:16 PM
I'm looking to do a Tomme on Thursday using a number of cultures, including LM057 (LMC, aka, Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris (http://www.webexhibits.org/butter/culturing.html)) to give it a little different character.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 03, 2012, 10:10:36 PM
Boof, add it in to milk beforehand, the night before, or right away to cold milk, and then bring the milk up to temp. Best results in my experience doing it that way, unless you have extra time to kill to let the warm milk stand around at 75F.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: NimbinValley on January 03, 2012, 11:54:11 PM
what kind of flavour notes are you hoping to achieve with this culture boofer?

NVD
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: NimbinValley on January 04, 2012, 12:07:23 AM
Ive been doing some reading on the use of LM.  Is it possible to add it to say a 20L bucket of pasteurised milk and leave overnight to culture then add it to an 80L vat of pasteurised milk next day to continue with the cheesemaking?  Logistically it would be difficult for me to pasteurise a vat full of milk, leave it to sit overnight then with LM then use it the next day.

NVD
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 04, 2012, 12:35:24 AM
Yes, that's fine. When I say overnight, I mean in bulk tank. It's also fine to re pasteurize and kill off LM, though flavor will be different, of course. It's important to consider the historical practice and how it affects cheesemaking practice and flavor, and then how to use and adopt that to your situation.

I will try to make a long post on beneficial inoculations and inoculating evening milk later this month. I did some work with it last year, to preserve milk quality of raw milk longer so that cheesemakers could maintain quality without making cheese every day by using specific strains.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: NimbinValley on January 04, 2012, 12:43:48 AM
Ok.

If the milk is repasteurised after the LM has been added and left to grow I guess the enzymes etc are still present, along with any diacetyl produced.

NVD.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 04, 2012, 12:51:02 AM
Yes, exactly, it's one of the strategies to achieve a more raw-milk or traditional flavor despite using pasteurized milk and modern processes. In tommes, most useful for young adjuncted types designed for rapid maturation and shorter shelf life. In bloomies, more useful as normal practices in say, camembert.

Personally, am not a fan of pasteurizing at all (can always thermize for safety), but it's an option if your process requires it.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on January 04, 2012, 08:41:48 AM
what kind of flavour notes are you hoping to achieve with this culture boofer?

NVD
I'm looking for a little more creaminess...richness. Hard to exactly characterize. My most recent effort (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7719.0.html) was decent and I hope to achieve something similar, but having a slightly creamier slant.

Boof, add it in to milk beforehand, the night before, or right away to cold milk, and then bring the milk up to temp. Best results in my experience doing it that way, unless you have extra time to kill to let the warm milk stand around at 75F.
I have tried that but still end up with a significant wait for the pH to drop. I tried dosing a cup of warmed milk, letting it sit overnight, and adding it to the kettle, but still no joy. Looks like I have to bite the bullet in 2012 and move to the mother (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5165.0.html).

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 04, 2012, 09:54:03 AM
For that approach, it's only with diacetyl-producing strains, or with protectorants, not the main acidifier, which should be lactococcus for tommes, perhaps with some Strep. The main acidifying culture, you add closer to proper temp range, and either wait for DVI and tolerate the slower speed, or use mothers. Reason is because for acid producing culture, you need higher temp... there's no real advantage to adding them in when you're going to refrigerate them. If you want a faster drop, switch to a new strain of lactococcus/adjust pitch quantity
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: dthelmers on January 04, 2012, 10:53:04 AM
So the diacetyl producing strains will produce diacetyl at refrigerator temperatures? Is there an optimum time frame for that? Can it go too long?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 04, 2012, 10:57:19 AM
Quote
will produce diacetyl at refrigerator temperatures
Yep.
Quote
Is there an optimum time frame for that? Can it go too long?
Usually, .15-.2% overnight. If you're doing longer, adjust the pitch rate. Yes, can go too long... you want a balanced flavor, just a tad of diacetyl, like what you get with a normal LD culture. In a way, this is breaking up the LD blend into two phases, the D phase where you inoculate refrigerated milk, and then the normal cheesemaking phase where you use an acidifier. It is an adjunct when used in this approach. No set rules about this, mostly about your flavor preference. Too much diacetyl is not necessarily helpful.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on January 04, 2012, 10:58:56 AM
Just want to say, Pav - I reaffirm my gratitude for your generosity of spirit, both in helping folks here (myself included, obviously), and in your broader aims, helping farmers and small cheesemakers to become and stay viable, via your work.  (Intrigued by your comments on quality maintenance, when not doing daily makes).  You're a good man.  :)

Made my first cheese in 6 months last night, all Beauforts having been eaten, now. Loosely, a reb, though it will basically be a soft cheese to reb dimensions with a host of ambient flora from my Beaufort cave, along with vat inoculants.  Fun, to let go, and get loose. 

Best wishes, everyone.  Kudos, Boof, busy as always!

Paul
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 04, 2012, 11:19:37 AM
Quote
quality maintenance, when not doing daily makes
It's one of those industry things few people talk about. Not sure why, probably some sort of protectionism. It's not used very widely at all. But it's possible to beneficially inoculate milk with beneficial strains, and they act as milk protectorants. Chemically, it's pretty cool, you can take two bulk tank samples from the same farm, and the fat degradation in regular milk after 3 days will be drastically higher than in inoculated milk. It's one of the ways that raw milk with the right native flora can remain fresher longer, and one of the mechanism old timers relied on without realizing they were relying on it. Really useful for smaller scale production when there's only enough time to make cheese 2-3 times/week. It's like working with 12-hour-old milk after 2-3 days in the tank, which IMHO makes a significant difference and makes it possible to take cheese from a solid, good cheese, to a world-class cheese. Milk fat lipolysis in fluid milk is especially a huge issue for goat milk. That's why some of the smaller farmstead French makers will actually make their semi-lactics twice a day.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on January 04, 2012, 11:31:48 AM
That is absolutely fascinating, Pav.  Very cool.  If I'm not very, very careful, you might entice me into going gonzo again, and into thinking of nothing else.   ;D

Will be following this with interest.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 04, 2012, 11:37:26 AM
What would life be without all-consuming obsession healthy interests and hobbies?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on January 04, 2012, 11:39:01 AM
What would life be without all-consuming obsession healthy interests and hobbies?

 ;D,  Uh, placid boring?

Cheese has consumed me for over a year now, and I consume it in turn.

 ;D,  It's only fair.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: dthelmers on January 04, 2012, 11:39:18 AM
Cheese has consumed me for over a year now, and I consume it in turn.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: dthelmers on January 04, 2012, 11:41:21 AM
Yes, it's been fair, with one or two really excellent. ;)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on January 04, 2012, 11:53:12 AM
Then it sounds like you're winning the battle, Dave.   8)

(OK, I admit, with this last stretch, I've committed mortal sin - against humor.  I feel stale air around these here parts, and I've only myself to blame.  Sorry, Pav - your thread - I'll now stop hijacking with my frivolousness.  Back to you.  :-[)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on January 04, 2012, 02:39:47 PM
For that approach, it's only with diacetyl-producing strains, or with protectorants, not the main acidifier, which should be lactococcus for tommes, perhaps with some Strep. The main acidifying culture, you add closer to proper temp range, and either wait for DVI and tolerate the slower speed, or use mothers. Reason is because for acid producing culture, you need higher temp... there's no real advantage to adding them in when you're going to refrigerate them. If you want a faster drop, switch to a new strain of lactococcus/adjust pitch quantity
Got it.

Past effort:

New effort:

I've swapped the Kazu and TA61 and replaced them with MA4001 plus LH. Seems like a viable compromise. Tell me if otherwise, please.

Kudos, Boof, busy as always!
All hail, Paul! Good to hear you've got your hand in the game again.

Yeah, I'm just maintaining/improving my hand when and where I can. Some successes...some  ???  ::) makes. More molds to play with (Thanks, Yoav.). More ambition to tweak a little better here and there.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on January 04, 2012, 02:54:30 PM
It's fun as always to follow your doings, Boof.  You've such an impressive portfolio of makes, and variety of makes - blows my mind.  I'm pretty much staying in Savoie, France, it seems - soft alpine in winter and hard alpine in spring and summer. 

BTW - sorry again for the off-topic, Pav - but a visit to our old haunt (http://www.andysdeli.net/) for our son's 11th brought his request for a fave - Bryndza- any recipes, anyone?  Basically, a chevre-type soft, with sheep's milk, I'm guessing?  (should probably start this in another thread, but Boof, thought you might have made this, sometime?  Anyone?)

Edit: Whoops - sorry, saw, of course, Pav's contributions (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5998.msg49340.html#msg49340), after the fact.  Not sure if this was a Slovak, Polish or other make - not sure, in fact, where the one we buy comes from.  The variant we enjoyed from the Polish deli was flavorful, creamy-soft, spreadable, not-crumbly, fairly well-salted.    Will dig further into that thread, sorry for not looking first.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: NimbinValley on January 04, 2012, 03:57:04 PM
I need to explore this a bit more...

For that approach, it's only with diacetyl-producing strains, or with protectorants, not the main acidifier, which should be lactococcus for tommes, perhaps with some Strep.

So if we wanted to keep milk 'fresher' longer then adding some non-acid producing starters the day before will help and it will also contribute to flavour if diactetyl is produced?

Some of the lactoccocus will produce acid though.  Is it just that at the lower temps they are not active enough to produce any significant amount of acid?

The main acidifying culture, you add closer to proper temp range, and either wait for DVI and tolerate the slower speed, or use mothers. Reason is because for acid producing culture, you need higher temp... there's no real advantage to adding them in when you're going to refrigerate them. If you want a faster drop, switch to a new strain of lactococcus/adjust pitch quantity
Got it.

Past effort:
  • 1/4 tsp Kazu (LL,LC,LD,LH)
  • 1/16 tsp TA61
  • 1/8 tsp PLA
  • 1/32 tsp Mycodore

Do you add the PLA since you will wash the rind with this during maturation and this will help speed up the process?

New effort:
  • 1/2 tsp MA4001 (LL,LC,LD,ST)
  • 1/16 tsp LH
  • 1/8 tsp PLA
  • 1/32 tsp Mycodore
  • 1/16 tsp LM057

I've swapped the Kazu and TA61 and replaced them with MA4001 plus LH. Seems like a viable compromise. Tell me if otherwise, please.

I would have thought that the MA4001 would be too strain specific if you were chasing a variety of more intense flavour notes.  Kazu may be a better option.  Any comments here?

Kudos, Boof, busy as always!
All hail, Paul! Good to hear you've got your hand in the game again.

Yeah, I'm just maintaining/improving my hand when and where I can. Some successes...some  ???  ::) makes. More molds to play with (Thanks, Yoav.). More ambition to tweak a little better here and there.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: NimbinValley on January 04, 2012, 04:31:39 PM
What would be the consequence flavour wise of too much diacetyl?

By ripening overnight with say Kazu or Flora Danica PLUS some LM would this be overkill in a cam do you think? Australians love fat/buttery/creamy flavours and textures - just take a walk through any shopping mall and you can see the result!

By the way, I haven't quite worked out how the 'quote' function works on here so my last post has bits of my comments mixed in with other quotes...

NVD.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 04, 2012, 04:48:42 PM
Quote
What would be the consequence flavour wise of too much diacetyl?
Short term? Overwhelming, almost synthetic overly butter notes. Long term, it breaks down and forms other compounds in the cheese, which is somewhat difficult to predict. Many times, diacetyl breaks down into flavorless compounds.
Quote
would this be overkill in a cam do you think?
Why the Kazu? I think using cocktails of cultures is a cool approach, but I would exercise some restraint to try and mirror natural processes. If you're doing a blended inoculation to night milk, I would keep the total mix under .2%. You can do Kazu, nothing wrong with it, just that most of what's in Kazu will be dormant in the fridge. You need borderline psychrotrophs such as LM.
Quote
So if we wanted to keep milk 'fresher' longer then adding some non-acid producing starters the day before will help and it will also contribute to flavour if diactetyl is produced?
Yes, but it is strain specific. And acid is still produced... these starters usually work with the lactoperoxidase system in milk, to help give a boost to its "immunity".
Quote
Some of the lactoccocus will produce acid though.  Is it just that at the lower temps they are not active enough to produce any significant amount of acid?
Yes, also more complex than that because using a normal O type, fast acid strain is typically not appropriate as a protectorant. The Leuconostoc and Lactococcus genus has many strains that are quite different in their diversity.
Quote
I would have thought that the MA4001 would be too strain specific if you were chasing a variety of more intense flavour notes.  Kazu may be a better option.  Any comments here?
Try both, this is a bit of an art because milk differs. :)

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Cloversmilker on January 04, 2012, 05:30:34 PM
Thanks for the discussion.  I can't contribute much, but certainly appreciate the insight.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on January 05, 2012, 12:34:43 AM
By the way, I haven't quite worked out how the 'quote' function works on here so my last post has bits of my comments mixed in with other quotes...
Yeah, until I went back up and reread the posting again I hadn't recognized that some of those weren't my words, though that's how it appears.  :o

You can use the "Insert Quote" to grab someone's posting and then edit out what may not be relevant. You can do that repeatedly if you want to comment on pieces of a posting. I sometimes grab a posting and then COPY and PASTE the "quote author=....." and "/quote" parts (with the brackets) to tell the page where the piece starts and ends.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: NimbinValley on January 05, 2012, 03:38:35 AM
Cheers.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: NimbinValley on January 10, 2012, 06:06:30 PM
More tomme rind discussion...

I have been washing the rind of my washed curd tomme with a 5% brine and PLA every 2 or 3 days.  It is now 4 weeks since I made it (13/12/11) and I am looking for some guidance.  Pic below.

I am thinking I will now vacuum pack it for the next 6 months.  After I take it out I will oil it every couple of days for a couple of weeks to harden it up.

Any comments?

NVD
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Missy Greene on January 18, 2012, 07:56:45 PM
what are you using for a mold? the texture pattern look so nice? thanks Missy
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: NimbinValley on January 19, 2012, 08:32:31 PM
I am just using standard hard cheese hoops that are about 200mm in diameter.  I have cut liners made out of cheese matting to fit inside them with a circle for each end.  The hoops I have a slightly tapered and I think it would be better if they were straight as it makes the liners warp a bit.  I'll try and get a pic up.

NVD
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on June 14, 2012, 01:04:38 PM
Making some raw milk tomme tomorrow washed with strawberry-peach wine lees.  :P
 
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on June 14, 2012, 02:13:58 PM
Nice one, Tomer. With lees, my experience is that less is more (granted mine were lees from rice wine). Add salt to it to get to 3%, and paint it on, then let it grow out. Just what worked best for me. Curious what your results will be.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on June 14, 2012, 03:18:02 PM
So your suggesting air drying the cheese for a few days and then do a single application and just let it become slimey and grow what ever comes?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on June 14, 2012, 03:25:46 PM
What I did is use it as a thick paint 1x/week, both to inoculate, and to knock down. I would let the previous layer dry out before I painted again, and kept humidity in low 90s because I didn't want b linens, was going for molds.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on June 14, 2012, 03:34:04 PM
Got it.  I'l be happy to document and share the process for future generations :)
 
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on June 14, 2012, 03:51:02 PM
Awesome. I think you need to decide the point of using the lees. Is it as perfume, to get that slight funk? Is it as food for other flora? Is it to introduce flora? Is it to change the pH or other parameter, to encourage the selective growth of some species? Because that shapes the treatment you should give. For example, if you wanted to use it as a perfume, you wouldn't dilute it into a morge and wash it like a gruyere. I was after using it as a substrate and to add natural flora, while sticking to a mold approach. So that's what my schedule and approach did. Definitely not the only way to go.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on June 15, 2012, 02:30:19 AM
I want to use it to to encourage yeast growth (contributing to aroma modification). 
I dont want to dilute it.  (any fruity perfum will likely be lost to oxidation anyhow)

The pH of the lees is roughly 3.8 so Im acidifying the rind (rather then deacifying as most morge do to preper the rind for growth), how will this likely to influence the whole situation?  I dont want to end up with a cheese which just tastes yeasty and nothing more. 

Also should I target a high moisture or not? (cutting size and fluc factor), with high moisture I can expect to get some paste\texture modification, right?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on June 15, 2012, 06:29:25 AM
The lees pH is an important consideration. It will inhibit b linens and some molds production. But, if you leave it alone, the native flora should be able to increase pH enough over 3-4 days to support mold growth. 

Do not do a high moisture, you risk runaway fermented flavors. This needs a run-of-the-mill tomme, 3x floc. If you do moderate moisture, it might work, so long as you don't do too many applications and keep the humidity in the moderate range to slow everything down.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on June 15, 2012, 07:33:47 AM
I'm right after the second washing.  I did Floc X3.   The curds feel ready for draining but I'l continue working them to expell some more moisture as the pH is still fairly high (about 6.43) and I got room\time to work with untill I reach low end of draining pH.

Edit:
I messed up.  Over acidifying to 5.25. I stacked two mould and apearently It wasnt centered properly and got this bulge and the netting got in between. arrrrrr.      Its not my day.  I might buy some milk again next week and re do. 

The offsided wheel is continuing to dry for a few more days (rised humidity to 85% and lowered temp to 12-13c) before Lees application.

The second (freakishly looking one) is having a bath in a Choclate raspberry port (with 3% salt and CaCl2 added) for 36 hr,  will be dried up , bathed again and baged.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on June 17, 2012, 04:01:42 PM
5.25 not the end of the world. It's alright, especially if you hit the rennet and drain. Good luck!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on June 25, 2012, 07:40:45 PM
If it's too acidic, age it moist to prevent it from drying and move it to cool temp aging quicker (2-4 weeks). Age it in refrigeration for a month longer. I am sure it will be great!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on June 26, 2012, 05:53:16 AM
The yeast are growing well with a very fruity aroma (im washing every third day with the Lees-brine) , and I'm not getting a bready smell which is good.
Humidity is 85-90%.  Unfortunatlly my fridge is acting up (keeps building ice) and I cant get it below 14c.

As yeast can be anaerobic, will they continue to "work their magic" aroma wise if I vacuum bag without drying up the rind again?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on June 26, 2012, 05:46:00 PM
The cold period should be in a normal fridge, not cave temp.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on June 27, 2012, 12:38:20 AM
So the month longer of aging is to sort of compensate for the decrease (slowed) in chemical reactions?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on June 27, 2012, 02:21:36 AM
It will give enzymatic activity more time to process the texture and flavors to the point where they would otherwise be a month earlier should your acidity have been perfect.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on June 27, 2012, 03:08:38 AM
Doing a rematch today, Tomme with lipase and black pepper corns.  now, thats spicey!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on June 27, 2012, 10:19:16 AM
Watch out for lipase!  If your milk is reasonably fatty, lipase can make a really horrible flavor. If you must try it, I would do away with the peppercorns (let that milk speak for itself) and try 1/4 of the lipase dose. Remember that peppercorns and such elements bring their own flora, pH, fermentation, and the shifting of minerals and essential oils into the cheese during aging.  I would first practice at getting an honest pure Tomme perfected and when your Tommes are amazing, start playing with additions. That's me though...

At the end of the day, nothing compares (in my personal view) to a naturally cultured, naturally molded aged cheese that tells the story of animal, milk, terroir, cave and cheesemaker's skills -with big flavor, texture, aroma -accompanied with beautiful presentation. Herbs, nuts, berries, spices, truffles, seeds tend to distract from that focus and cover up a lot of the goodness and your hard work.  Washing with wine, liqueur or beer is a bit different because they are used as surface cultures and not as flavorants. Their microbes act on the cheese, and they too can tell the story of terroir.  There are of course some exceptions to that (mainly fresh cheeses with herbs, some Goudas with caraway seeds, Pecorino Pepato, etc.), but when it comes to Tomme and most other cheeses, I am a purist
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on June 27, 2012, 11:54:08 AM
I have had good luck with the minimally used herbs & seeds I have added to my cheeses. "Less is more." My Leiden with cumin seeds and Esrom with herbes de Provence are delightful cheeses that are not difficult to eat and enjoy. I am agreeing with you, Yoav, in case that was too subtle.  ;)

My experience with lipase has been with two failures of Manchego. In both of those cases, the bite and flavor of the lipase was overpowering and I found the cheeses very difficult to eat. I believe I had used 1/4 tsp in 4 gallons of milk. Too much.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on June 27, 2012, 01:17:13 PM
I decided to skip the pepper corns as I dont really like the aroma coming out of the "pepper water" (I'l save that for a springy gouda) and do 1\2 the lipase needed for the volume of milk using the low end concentration.

I'm filling up the fridge for the summer so I'l be trying all sort of things (different rind treatments, spice ,full fat ,skimed, washed curd, non washed curd) so by winter i'l be able to crack them open and have an understanding on what I like and what not to repeat -whats worth to try again\perfect and what is a waste of time.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on June 27, 2012, 06:39:03 PM
Great. FYI, Tomme is historically a skimmed-fat cheese. Of course, lipase will accelerate the breakdown of fats so if you use lowfat or nonfat milk it will be odd. On the other hand, if you are looking for a more spicy, nutty, sweet alpine/dutch/swiss/italian flavor, perhaps you should consider using a farmstead culture that contains Helveticus (such as Kazu or a mix of LH and MM cultures). This should be combined with a touch (not a full dose) of Shermanii. Add LBC culture if you have any. Use about 20%-25% less salt in this recipe.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on June 28, 2012, 05:19:18 AM
I partly skimed the milk.
Unfortunatlly the milk was contaminated during the make (I was doing a super make, an 8 liter blue batch on the table and 15 liter tomme on the stove at the same time),
The tommes (a completly filled 1.5kg mold and 0.5kg mold) were spongy and blowted (coliforms?) but the blue was perfectly fine. (the milk was thermised, 50c for 20min)
I think my dad decided to take out the trash or something silly like that while I was resting, explaining about importance of sanitation to him is like talking to the wall :)

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on June 29, 2012, 11:13:54 AM
Oh that sucks. The kitchen is off limits to my wife, guests etc. when cheesemaking happens. I empty trash first, spray all counters with San Star sanitizer, spray the empty trash with it and put a fresh bag in it, spray all utensils, containers, moulds and pots I am about to use, spray the backsplash too. The sink too must be clean and sprayed. No open bread, flour, fruits or and any other thing that invites contamination. I am a bit crazy, I know -but this really works and gives me peace of mind; one less thing to worry about.

Bloating could be coliforns or yeasts. It also happens when there are antibodies in the milk such as in the case of colostrum. Check and see when the animal gave birth.... if this is first milk -this may be the case (however I doubt it because it seems your other cheese from the same milk worked well).

I also wouldn't do multiple batches of blue and non-blue at the same time. It's too easy to cross-contaminate BOTH cheeses.

As for your thermalization... I think this may be the culprit and source of your trouble! 50°C is a fantastic temperature for pathogens to thrive in. Moreover, 20 minutes is not enough to make them tired.  In other words, instead of pasteurizing, you did the opposite - you have just grown a fresh giant community of bacteria all over your milk (and your dad moving about with the trash could may have just seeded it right in).  Batch pasteurization needs to take place at 66°C and be held at that temperature (in a closed vessel) for a MINIMUM of 30 minutes. It needs to be chilled rapidly and instantly then to your target temperature for inoculation or refrigeration (it cannot just be chilled to room temperature because it would spend too much time in the "thrive zone" temperature for bacterial growth). This is really important practice to have down.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on June 29, 2012, 02:10:53 PM
I followed an advice from LB regarding thermization instead of pasteurization.

Quote
Pretty straightforward. Higher temps and longer times break down more proteins (including enzymes, which are types of proteins). So if you wanted to retain more raw milk character, and were reasonably assured of the cleanness of the milk, taking to 120-125 for 10 mins might be enough. If you were ultra paranoid, might want to take it to 135F for 20 mins. It's all about the lethality curve and risk vector and acceptable risk profile for the style of cheese, incorporating probabilities given source (including factors like pooled vs unpooled milk.


The heat was rised very quickly,held and the milk was cooled to culture temp fairly fast.  It worked fine with my previews make from the same milk few weeks ago. I dont think the cows gave birth recently as there were only two calves seperated. 
I think I can pin it down on sanitation.  I need to get a hold on this no rinse sanitizer.   
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on June 29, 2012, 02:50:30 PM
Quote
50°C is a fantastic temperature for pathogens to thrive in.
Curious, Yoav, which pathogens, and what n log reduction, if any, do expect for each common one?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on June 29, 2012, 05:23:58 PM
Actually, the optimum temperature for human pathogens is 37C or 98F, just like the human body. And most significant pathogens, like coliforms, are destroyed around 140F (or well before). In fact, that is the legal target temperature that most USA health departments and the FDA require for serving hot food. Yeast can be pretty resilient sometimes, but most yeast starts dying around 120F. By 140F they are pretty much dead.

Low-temperature pasteurization at 145F is a well proven method and preserves some of the protein and enzyme structure in milk, which is obviously good for cheese making. Pasteurization at higher temperatures is actually overkill for most pathogens, but it also destroys most spoilage bacteria. Listeria is an exception and can even survive "normal" pasteurization at 160F for 15 seconds. There are a couple of spore forming bacteria like Clostridium (responsible for "late blowing") that often survive pasteurization. Pretty obvious when it happens. Sanitation, not pasteurization, is the key for Listeria & Clostridium.

I do blues and other cheeses together all the time and have no problem with cross contamination. In fact, every Tuesday is double cheese day for me. I make a 38 gallon batch of "regular" pressed cheese in the morning, clean and sanitize everything, then make a batch of blue in the afternoon.

Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: elkato on June 30, 2012, 08:42:00 AM
Tomer1;
How can you tell a possible contamination in the curd stage, I know you noticed the bloating, but how obvious is this change.. I think it has not happened to me but I am really worried and want to be able to spot it if it does happen
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on June 30, 2012, 08:46:43 AM
It turned into a bath sponge.  I could squize it and it made a skuts skwoouts sound.   I didnt open it because I was pissed and late for my ride but I'm sure it had milions of tiny holes. :)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: dbudge55 on June 30, 2012, 10:37:25 AM
"skuts skwoouts" Man, I like that! A new high-water mark for cheese making onamonapia.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on July 04, 2012, 09:50:28 AM
Tomme progression at 3 weeks, washed twice a week. 
Humidity is a bit too high so I got some linens coverage but its fairly dry to the touch not slimy and it smells increadibly fruity as I was hoping for.
I got a timer for the humidifier so Im trying to keep it at 85% in hoping that something alse will grow and add to the linens,  theres is some white stuff that keeps trying to grow at this one spot and I rub it off during washing.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on July 10, 2012, 04:50:04 PM
Tomer the cheese looks fantastic! Don't worry about high humidity. This isn't a Camembert. Let it rind and go nuts. Too early to let it go dry.  Did I read your Hebrew label correctly? Tomme Port?  You used Port wine? That should be interesting!

About the other thing...
Quote
50°C is a fantastic temperature for pathogens to thrive in.
Curious, Yoav, which pathogens, and what n log reduction, if any, do expect for each common one?

Eh, not to be disgusting... but
My HCCAP handbook and FDA don't have a guideline for 50°C. They start at 54°C where it would take 112 minutes to exhaust pathogens. As many of you know it's exponential: at 55°C it takes just 8.5 minutes, at At 60°C it's already at 8.5 minutes, At 65°C it only takes 50 seconds and at 170°C it's a measly 5 seconds. And so, I am sure that 50°C then is WELL beyond 112 minutes. My point is that 20 minutes at 50°C is still pretty happening to some pathogens, don't you agree?

But back to the subject, I may have not read it is far enough back. Pav, what was the reason to suggest 50°C thermolization at 20 minute in the first place? What does it do? Sailor, do you do that too?  I feel like I misunderstood something here
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on July 10, 2012, 04:56:30 PM
I thermize at more than 50C when I do it. Often will go to 65. Depends on the risk vector and milk.

I agree that some pathogens survive at 50C, but the thing about those HACCP guidelines is that they're not really based on a realistic assessment of risk vector. They're lab numbers. If one starts with low counts and wants to take a precaution, then a 5 log reduction isn't as critical. It's not pasteurization

Will answer the rest of your post tomorrow when I have time.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on July 10, 2012, 05:13:52 PM
Ah! That's different; 65°C is a world away from 50°C for pathogens and nothing will grow (especially if you do it at 20 minutes).  I agree that HCCAP numbers are well within an exaggerated safety envelope.  Knowing Tomer I assumed he also used raw milk hence my comments. But still I don't get the purpose of the process. Is this just to isolate surviving thermophilic strains?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on July 10, 2012, 05:17:26 PM
middle ground. You inactivate pathogens that presumably are low load due to milk freshness. Reduces risk. Yet retain most of the properties of raw milk. It does inactivate milk enzymes, though.  Not sure if you've ever done this experiment, but it's a fun one. Take the same milk and apply different heat treatments, make same cheese in one day. And taste each one. Will be able to see exactly what the heat treatment does. For me, thermization is a middle ground for when I feel especially paranoid that yet enables flavor preservation.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on July 10, 2012, 05:20:57 PM
Funny, it seems I always go the absolute opposite way.  I cool the milk and pre-inoculate it to enable my lactic cultures to take over.  Would be interesting to try your way. Never tried this before!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on July 10, 2012, 05:47:23 PM
Yes, this is what I also do now as of last milk cycle. I achieve better pathogen inactivation this way. Remember we had a chat.. last year about Normandie practices and how slower acidification pre rennet has been the practice across all classic cheeses. I came to that conclusion after doing several deep dives into protomal/archetypal cheeses such as parmigiano. It's the better way to go. But, suppose there's the situation where someone buys milk, has no clue about quality, is paranoid, but doesn't want to pasteurize. Thermization is a reasonable middle ground. Eliminates not only pathogens, cleans up psychrotrophs, too, which are terrible for flavor.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on July 10, 2012, 06:17:14 PM
Quote
cleans up psychrotrophs, too, which are terrible for flavor.
Arent these only a concern when cooling raw milk and storing it before warming it up again to ripening\renneting temp?

My starter gets into the milk less then 2 hours after milking which I assume is fairly fast\good.
Im gone brave up and do a raw milk batch with a grana type this week as it ages for well well over 90 days.

I'm not sure how to handle the milk though so I can get enough cream to rise for skimming, without decrese in pH by milk flora as the milk is still fairly close to cow body temp. 33-34c.   great ripening temp.
Should I cool it rapidly to below 20c?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on July 10, 2012, 10:21:00 PM
Yes Pav, I remember that chat well. The situation you describe sounds familiar. That's how I felt every time I got my mystery raw milk from the speakeasy secter underground local milk coop.  I am happy to report I just found an incredible raw milk source; local and tested, legal and supervised, you know exactly what cow did what.  No more fearful cheesemaking with that!

Only issue is with their sheep's milk - it's way too expensive to make cheese from.  A 4Lb Tomme would cost me $160 in milk. Huh?  Cow will cost about $24 for the same.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on July 11, 2012, 02:23:05 AM
Quote
Arent these only a concern when cooling raw milk and storing it before warming it up again to ripening\renneting temp?
Not only but also. Mostly, it does concern longer-term storage to prevent lipase development from psychrotrophs.
Quote
My starter gets into the milk less then 2 hours after milking which I assume is fairly fast\good.
Im gone brave up and do a raw milk batch with a grana type this week as it ages for well well over 90 days.

Do it! Really, it should be fine.

I'm not sure how to handle the milk though so I can get enough cream to rise for skimming, without decrese in pH by milk flora as the milk is still fairly close to cow body temp. 33-34c.   great ripening temp.
Should I cool it rapidly to below 20c?

No, not if using so soon. I would make a fuller fat grana type. It won't last as long, will mature faster.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on July 11, 2012, 03:51:54 AM
I could try a whole milk romano.

So your saying that leaving it to stand for 1.5-2 hours so it can be skimed will not "jeopardize" the milk?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on July 11, 2012, 03:34:57 PM
No, there's no technical or other reason to chill milk to grade A or mess with it if you are making cheese same day.

When I was a boy, living without refrigeration, we left milk out on the counter after the milking and would drink it. After a day or so it would start souring a little and after 2-3 days, would clabber. And we would drink the clabber and cook with it or make farmer cheese. For cheesemaking, the big concern is twofold: contamination and runaway acidity... and both re controllable through sanitation and good handling.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on July 11, 2012, 05:55:10 PM
My question is what stopping from naturally accuring bacteria in the milk (which is very warm as its 30c outside and is still warm from the milking) from producing acid while milk fat portion moves to the top?

Im not comfortable making cheese with naturally acidified milk. At least not with animals i'm not rising and milking myself or at least from milk coming from an artisinal dairy which works in this manner and is successful (in both product quality and safty).
This milk is basically sold to the big co-op dairies.  quality is not prime goal but economics.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on July 11, 2012, 06:38:20 PM
Quote
from producing acid while milk fat portion moves to the top?
A few initial mechanisms. One, lactoperoxidase inhibits initial bacterial growth. Two, cream as it rises takes the bacteria up. Three, calcium buffering ability. But this only goes so far.

The point I am making is that you want this acidity. It helps to make a better cheese. The issue becomes when it runs away... when the strains, handling, and processing all do not coincide, and the curve does not fit the cheese style.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on July 11, 2012, 06:53:34 PM
Ok, I catch your drift.  Going (or starting) from any where between pH 6.60 to pH 6.80 in fresh raw milk is really not the issue but I've got to start my make before I get to the point where the "train is going downhill" and 6.60 might get to 6.50 in less then an hour causing me to miss my renneting point or rennet an overly acidified milk producing a different result from desired.

So...bottom line. Expirience.   Untill I reach such expertise.  should I monitor the standing milk for pH "developments" or even lactic acid production? say limit it....   Im gone let it stand untill Max pH=>6.60 ?


Thanks again, these are very valuable tips which I havent been able to pick up in any technical or non technical book.  ;D
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on July 11, 2012, 08:04:34 PM
You can go a bit lower before renetting, or change the style. Can do 6.0 for semi lactics, 6.45 for bloomies, 6.5 for many continentals. Where acidity is an issue especially is for the high calcium cheeses... parmigiano, granas, gruyere, etc. The rest are rather forgiving. But yes, experience is everything here because milk and flora are so variable
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on July 16, 2012, 01:16:51 PM
The now 40-50 days old orange tomme (recently started to shift direction toward some white geo dusting) which was thermized at 50c degrees for 20 minutes has a slight italian (lipase-gammy) smell to the rind (above the basic fruity notes from the wash) so I presume the heat treatment did not denature the milk's enzymes.   I like it!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Mike Richards on July 26, 2012, 10:06:35 PM
I just finished reading through this entire thread (it's taken me a few days).  I've enjoyed all the discussion and appreciate all the contributions people have made.  It's not surprising that the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know--that's how I feel every time I go back to school, anyway.  I'm currently looking at getting a PhD in Mechanical Engineering or Applied Physics.  Too bad I can't convince my department to send me for a PhD in cheesemaking...then I might be able to contribute to discussions like these.   :D
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on July 26, 2012, 10:20:31 PM
This morning I breakfasted on some fruit with my Reblochon #2 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9720.msg72466.html#msg72466) and thought it might actually be closer to a mini-Tomme in texture. I wonder how far apart those two styles are? I've made 4 pound Tommes that were washed rind and had similar texture character. I like this Reb recipe and will repeat it shortly because it's really satisfying, but I fear it's not true to the style.

Maybe I should follow Pav's Tomme recipe but use the Reblochon moulds to downsize the wheels.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on July 27, 2012, 06:03:13 AM
Your tommes must have really high moisture content if the texture comes out simmilar.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Boofer on July 27, 2012, 07:55:30 AM
No, Tomer, other way around...the Rebs were lower moisture content than they probably should have been, but very nice.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on August 07, 2012, 12:58:18 AM
I do lots of "petit-tomme" cheeses using Reblochon moulds. I love it that a 4 Lbs batch can be split into 4 wheels. I would rather have 4 small wheels than 1 large one (especially on 2-4 months aging project, unlike 8 months old Swiss types that stand to lose lots of moisture and should be large).  In fact, the data sheet from the manufacturer on the ones I import calls the moulds "Tomme-Reblochon" (but then again... Tomme is a generic French name for any round cheese).

You can do Tomme with very high moisture of course. It can be semi soft or you can play with farmstead culture to stiffen it up in spite of high moisture.

I think I posted this photo before, (this is a cheese I opened in January) this is such batch I made with natural rind using Reblochon mould
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: aka_tico on October 12, 2012, 01:51:42 PM
greetings all,
I made my first Tomme using this recipe and all went well. being the first attempt I was going for a natural rind so i brine the cheese in 18% salt solution for 12 hours and then put it in my aging container. its at 4'c/85%RH for past 4 weeks and now it has developed blueish mode on the surface. is this OK? was i suppose to wash it every week? trying to find information on rind development and maintenance but most of the information i could find is on complex rind. i would appreciate any help.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tomer1 on October 12, 2012, 05:46:50 PM
Thats way too cold for anything other then blue (which is unwanted with this type of cheese) to grow on the rind.
Do a search on wild rind tomme. 
 
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on October 14, 2012, 03:13:42 PM
aka_tico I agree with Tomer.  I assume the low temperature is because you don't have aging cave or wine fridge?

If that is the case, perhaps you want to consider making it a tad less acidic (shorten the pre-rennet time and flocculation time by about 15%) and then age it for 5-10 days in room temperature inside an aging box -so it begins to develop yeasts and some native fungi as rind.  Then move it to the fridge and take it out for an hour a day to air and increase temp temporarily. This way there will be overwhelming amount of the rind species and they will deter any foreign or pathogenic molds.  After you get some cat's hair mould on it, begin brushing it back gently to build a strong dense mould. This will protect the cheese from contaminants as well as from becoming dry. The rind will contribute to the flavor development, aromatic properties and texture breakdown. It will look good too!

The blue dots you have there looks to me like cross contamination of yeast. Possibly from baker products nearby. It could also be Oidium yeast mold from nearby fruits/vegetables.

If the cheese is moist now, there may still be enough nutrients in it to support late mold so you can try to create it now.  Wash it with light brine (4% salt) first, it will help the rind and hold back some of that yeast which is growing on it now.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tiarella on October 17, 2012, 01:25:30 PM
Iratherfly, is it possible to have natural rind cheeses in the same wine fridge as cheeses I want no molds on?  And if so, how?  My fridge now seems to have enough cheese in it that it's quite humid so I'm not putting all cheeses in mini caves now and the ones that are in mini cave boxes have their lids ajar to allow airflow.  Obviously it's a little hot bed of activity!  But if I let a cheese "go natural" won't all that flora and fauna spread throughout the cave anywhere that the bio-terrain is welcoming?  And how do I realistically make the bio-terrain of some cheeses less welcoming.....remembering that I'm also busy farming and running a business instead of lounging around eating cheese bonbons and thinking of affinage needs of all the different cheeses?   ;D
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: bbracken677 on October 17, 2012, 02:55:03 PM
.remembering that I'm also busy farming and running a business instead of lounging around eating cheese bonbons and thinking of affinage needs of all the different cheeses?   ;D

Hahahaha!  This really made my day!  Thanks Tiarella!    :)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: aka_tico on October 17, 2012, 03:21:40 PM
iratherfly so far i have made several fresh, Feta and Cam cheeses. I (wrongly) assumed that after initial aging a Tomme should go to the food fridge as well. the blue mold is powdery and smells (tastes) like the bread mold. I'm guessing is an Aspergillus? are they all considered pathogenic?
since your post I have moved the wheel to my beer fridge which is set to 13-15c. before doing so I scrubbed and wipe the cheese with a 14% brine. i also bought a piece of Tomme from the local fromagerie and cut the rind to pieces which i mashed up in a 2% solution. i have been wiping the cheese with it for the past couple of days as well as leaving the cheese on the counter for 15min. i will report back as for the result. meanwhile, thank you for the help.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: iratherfly on November 17, 2012, 02:49:35 AM
Sorry for the late reply. I missed this post. Bread yeast is typically saccharomyces cerevisiae. Not pathogenic but definitely a cheese defect.  You can certainly age some Tommes in the fridge partially but I would give them no less than 6 weeks in the cave.  In any event, your correcting treatment sounds good except you don't want to do this next time with a 14% brine. It's not saline enough to kill what you need to kill, but it is saline enough to kill geo, linens and yeasts that you do need.  2% brine for the morge is too low (though it's probably meaningless since you rubbed the rind with 14% rind already). Trust the abrasive action of the rubbing to do the job.  Use a brush or toss some coarse kosher salt on the surface and use a wet strong cotton cloth and rub vigorously. Do it every few days and eventually you will get the invaders to recede.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: Tiarella on November 18, 2012, 09:50:18 PM
.remembering that I'm also busy farming and running a business instead of lounging around eating cheese bonbons and thinking of affinage needs of all the different cheeses?   ;D

Hahahaha!  This really made my day!  Thanks Tiarella!    :)

I'm glad!  But of course I do aspire to someday lie around eating cheese bonbons and maybe reading a book series that involves cheese mysteries.   ::)
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on January 29, 2014, 07:26:44 PM
Quote
emphasizing Mycodore and KL71 more, linens less, if at all. I may bag the linens and just go with geo, mycodore, and the KL.

KL when it goes too far and overtakes is not very pleasant. And a slow linens bloom at 88% RH is really, really nice (to me). It gives an additional breakdown to the paste and increases sliceability. I'm not the world's biggest fan of KL for tommes. Prefer DH or candida utils. I like some KL in certain blues. Individual preference...

Yoav just posted my favorite rind for tommes: PLA and mycodore, and that's it. I agree, it's a brilliant culture blend, gives a rustic, very French tomme.

Pav et al, old post, but I'm returning to basics as I feel I've forgotten so much.  We've talked about getting a thick, mushroomy, mold-centric rind; part of why I'm going with a larger milk amount is to better afford the thicker rind.  I know 85% favors mold development.  I suspect it's dicing brunoise into demi-brunoise, but what would you think about starting with this RH then ramping up to 88%, once everything else has settled in?  In other words, all else being equal, would you expect any appreciable difference in flora balance between a cheese that started on the low side (85%) then ramped up to 88%, and one that started at, say, 88% and stayed there?
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on January 29, 2014, 09:28:25 PM
The lower humidity will give you slower yeasting and slightly faster molding. But thing is, you're dealing with micro amounts on a small scale. A measurement or viability issue can shift the flora to one side or another more than slight humidity change. I deal with humidity changes in 5% increments for ease. 85, 90, 95, that's all I emphasize these days. Between all those, usually there's a big enough difference in growth.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on January 29, 2014, 09:44:21 PM
Gotcha, understand, thank you, Pav.  I could use a dose of that, no pun intended. 
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 12, 2014, 09:53:38 PM
Pav, most recipes I've seen, this one included, tend to have a cooking period to them.  Yet, when I read through the tomme section of French Cheeses, or Max McCalman's Mastering Cheese**, for example, tommes are characterized by being uncooked, among other things.  Is this maybe just a cultural/translation thing - meaning, we're not talking high-temp cooking, as for gruyere family cheeses, just a 12ish degree hike over 1/2 hour or so. 

Or, are tommes traditionally truly kept ("held") at a given temperature, 88-92ish, from coagulation through to proper consistency then drained - without any ramping up in temp? 

** Specifically, McCalman notes Tomme des Bauges, a cheese I'm seeking to emulate, to the extent possible.

EDIT:  I think I might have found my own answer, and it was my first guess; in that same French Cheeses they talk about Tomme de Lullin as being an "uncooked" cheese: coming in and coagulating at 91F, then cut, stirred and heated to 98F, where it's held for 30 minutes.  So, it's "cooked" in any parlance I'm familiar with, anyway. 
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on February 13, 2014, 07:49:27 AM
It's true, the classic tradition of the tomme is to work quickly after coagulating, put the curds into molds and stack them, then let them ripen. I find this produces a softer style of tomme. But it varies with the tech and region. You can find some variation among makers. Overall, I think the decision to cook or not depends on the milk quality and the kind of aging you need. I am not sure on tomme des bauges; I have never seen it made firsthand. I believe that one is uncooked though.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 13, 2014, 07:52:52 AM
Thank you, Pav - about to go into a make but thought to change nothing - per the note on Tomme de Lullin above, they refer to it as "uncooked" but then talk about heating up from 91F to 98F; so I presumed this was just a translational error, and that all tommes typically get a ramp up. 

So, if seeking this softer style, would you recommend just going to, say, 92-94F, and holding there, throughout? 
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on February 13, 2014, 08:45:02 AM
Really depends on how well you can drive out the moisture and how you want to age it. temp itself does not change bacterial kinetics that much, but it does affect moisture and rate of whey loss in the curd. And with moisture differences, rate of maturation and surface aW changes, which in turn affects surface flora and final flavor through ripening.

tomme de lullin is cooked to 98F
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 13, 2014, 08:50:50 AM
Looking for something of a softer pate, yet can stand up to 4 months of affinage; mould driven rind dynamics, some MVA and geo (13).  Thought to just go in to 92F, then hold through 30 minutes post cut-healing, or until curd is holding together properly; then draining under whey and the usual.  I should mention I'm using pasteurized, prematured milk with CaCl at 1/4 tsp/gallon.

I am changing using PLA in the make and morge, using a blend of my own, so to keep down the variables should probably keep with the previous regimes, which is as you've suggested, Pav, 88-100 over 30 minutes.  But for the next makes, possibly - this notion of "uncooked" intrigues me.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on February 13, 2014, 08:58:31 AM
That long affinage shift to a more thermo make (not temp, culture, basically like a reb) and salt pH 4.8-4.9. and slowly after 2 months start drying it out a bit. 85% RH, 45F. And do a slightly taller wheel than you would for a normal savoie tomme.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 13, 2014, 09:06:46 AM
OK, thanks, Pav.  I actually maintain my cave at 85F, 55F as it is - again, seeking a mycodore-dominant cheese.  I've thought to kick it up to 88 or 90%, but am deciding to stay the course, to see what happens. 

All this said:  all other things being equal, meaning same culture, same cut size, holding at 92F v. ramping up to 100F will increase retained moisture; this will tend to create a faster acid curve, yes?  A softer pate?  Higher Aw cheese? 

A "better" milk, a raw milk (say, from some certain Ayrshire cows  ;) ), can deal with the higher retained moisture - just like it can handle a lower floc multiplier - better than the storebought; the storebought, one is almost necessarily cooking the curds?

Basically, in practical terms, what is the benefit of an uncooked v. the ramped up, cooked cheese? 
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on February 13, 2014, 10:07:45 AM
Quote
this will tend to create a faster acid curve, yes?
Culture dependent.
Quote
  A softer pate?
Generally higher MFFB, yes. But not always, depends on floc, cut size, stir schedule.
Quote
  Higher Aw cheese? 
Yes. Will favor different rind, slightly, if left in the wild.

Quote
the storebought, one is almost necessarily cooking the curds?
In my experience, yes.  Although if pasteurized store bought, can make a tolerable cheese.

Quote
uncooked v. the ramped up, cooked cheese? 
Degree of tech. It's not about benefit, more about difference. You can make cheese in the field with a bucket, no tools, freshly slaughtered lamb/kid that you share with shepherd friends for lunch retaining the abomasum for coagulant, and some basket or cloth to drain the cheese. and it turns out delicious without the need for fancy affinage. Or you can take it home, have a fire and more control, baby it a bit more, age it out and keep longer to survive the harsher months. Also turns out delicious. I've done both here on the farm, there's no real advantage to one or another. Makes for different cheese based on the cadence of the lifestyle.
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 13, 2014, 07:58:03 PM
Thanks, Pav.  I'll have to chew on these things for awhile, no pun intended.  I'm back to trying to keep "tendencies" in mind - "all other things being equal, [X] seasonal variation in milk tends to yield [lower][higher] total solids and protein, so adjust accordingly" and so on.

I'm finding my acid curves are in general too sharp.  I presume doing a pre-maturation of 0.2%, adding in the balance of the starter - in this case, an additional 1% b.e. - and doing it at 80F (when it takes considerable time to eek out those last 8 degrees F) can all add to an upfront lower pH than I might have expected, but still not sure why I'm getting 6.35 in the vat at drain, 5.04 terminal press pH after only 6.75 total hours under press, and that includes the first 3 flips.  I use warming mats loosely wrapped around the mold during the press - perhaps a contributor?

Next time I'm going to do a prematuration at 0.2%, and only 0.78% in the vat, so the total is 0.98%; will add the batch starter at 85F or so; and otherwise watch my targets better.  I can't recall anything from before, instructive in this way...in general for both my tommes and the rebs, would like a long, slow ripening and gentler acid curve generally.  My memory agrees with Sailor's comment, slow and steady wins the race with these alpines.  So any thoughts on this, much appreciated, guys. 

Paul

ps:  forgot to add, on the other hand, it occurs to me that with MA4001 and these low terminal pH's (this one at 5.04, the last, 4.96), and a good 4 gallons crammed into the tomme mold - Pav, I'm pretty close to your longer-aged potential, so will try, with these.  Just want to do it all consciously, nothing by a happy serendipity.  I've done lost my sea legs!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 25, 2014, 03:24:28 PM
I am just using standard hard cheese hoops that are about 200mm in diameter.  I have cut liners made out of cheese matting to fit inside them with a circle for each end.  The hoops I have a slightly tapered and I think it would be better if they were straight as it makes the liners warp a bit.  I'll try and get a pic up.

NVD

I love this idea, but trying it on my tomme/st. paulin mold, there's not enough play for the follower to be able to get inside the mold.  It barely slides with thin cheesecloth.  Do you have the specifics, NVD?  Very cool idea!
Title: Re: Tomme Cheese Making Recipe
Post by: NimbinValley on February 27, 2014, 04:01:20 PM
I still haven't put a pic up have I!  Here is a link to the hoop I use.  Yes if the sides don't taper then the follower won't fit inside the hoop plus liner.  You could have a slightly smaller follower made to fit I guess

http://shop.cheeselinks.com.au/Cheese-Baskets-and-Hoops/Cheese-Basket-P00654-p89.html (http://shop.cheeselinks.com.au/Cheese-Baskets-and-Hoops/Cheese-Basket-P00654-p89.html)

Having used them for a couple of years now I am thinking I should start using a standard tomme hoop - I will lose the lovely liner pattern on the cheese but my cheese will be more standard.

NV