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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => STANDARD METHODS - Aging Cheese => Topic started by: clherestian on August 18, 2009, 03:52:56 PM

Title: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: clherestian on August 18, 2009, 03:52:56 PM
I have made a washed rind cheese with Peter Dixon's tallegio recipe. It is aging now. The next time I make a washed rind cheese, I would like to add b linens to get the orange rind. I have read that it is best to spray this on afterward instead of adding to the milk. does anyone have any experience either way? When do I spray? Also, what pice of equipment do I use to spray?
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: FRANCOIS on August 18, 2009, 04:02:27 PM
You can add to the milk after pasteurizing, but the most convenient method is to dose your brine.  After you remove from the brine and start washing, use a washing solution made with b. linens and a geo/yeast.  This will get your rind going in a matter days.  Wash with a rag, don't spray.
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: DeejayDebi on August 18, 2009, 05:37:09 PM
'I tried mixing with the milk according to a Muester recipe in '200 Cheeses" and after 16 days I still have white cheese.

Next time I'm doing it Francois's way!
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: FRANCOIS on August 18, 2009, 05:46:13 PM
We just did a trial for a new cheese, washed rind.  We dosed the brine, dunked the first 3 days then washed after that.  The room is quite humid and we shrouded the cheeses with plastic to keep them super wet.  After 14 days we had to wrap them and put them in the chiller as the b.linen rind was getting out of hand.
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: DeejayDebi on August 18, 2009, 06:11:49 PM
I put mine in plastic boxes to keep them moist and nothing yet. I think the red rind is a goner!  :o Oh well I'll eat it anyway!
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: clherestian on August 19, 2009, 09:14:40 AM
Francois -

Thanks for the tips. About dosing the brine - how much b linens do I add to the brine? I usually make 1-2 quarts of brine. After dosing, do I need to let the brine sit before I use it?
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: FRANCOIS on August 19, 2009, 02:56:31 PM
A pinch, maybe like 1/16 tsp.  It doesn't take much culture to get things growing.
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: LimburgerFan#1 on August 19, 2009, 07:02:21 PM
Do any of yall know the minimum and maximum temp, and minimum and maximum humidity for aging Limburger cheese.
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: Zoey on September 01, 2009, 01:46:08 AM

I was going to ask a B.linens question too, but since there already was this thread, I'm leeching in, sorry clherestian.

So, I was just wondering, is there any way to extract the B.linens from a store-bought cheese? If I bought a Port Salut cheese or similar, and soaked the rind in my brine, maybe some B.linens would pass to the brine -> to my cheese? Anyone tried this?

Maybe I'll just try it, unless you vote against me. :)

What about my backup plan... if I don't get the B.linens growing, can I save the cheese by falling back to another ripening method?
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: FRANCOIS on September 01, 2009, 03:26:02 AM
The best way to steal it is to wet a rag with brine, rub it on your Port S., then rub it on your cheese.  It works, but it's inconsistent.
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: Zoey on September 01, 2009, 03:41:50 AM

Thanks Francois, that sounds easy. :)

Hmm... sounds to me that this is the same thing they used to do in the monasteries... didn't I hear somewhere that they used to wash the older cheeses first, and then the younger, so the bacteria would spread?

So my main concern is, do they kill of the bacteria before packaging? Well, we'll find out soon, won't we.
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: Alex on September 01, 2009, 09:43:44 AM
I do not pasteurize milk for Limburger, I age it at least 60 days. To all cheeses that need B.L., I allways add it to the milk and never had any problem, Of course washing regularly with brine. On the coming fryday I am going to cut a 2 months old Limburger to taste it. I intend to taste it in one and two more month again.
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: FRANCOIS on September 01, 2009, 06:48:13 PM
B. Linens are not destroyed before packaging.  There are a few "dead" cheeses, like haloumi, but they are pretty rare. 
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: riha on September 11, 2009, 05:47:22 PM
So, if one would go about making a solution with 3% salt and 1/16 tsp B Linens, how long is it usable?

Anybody tried this spreading the bacteria from another cheese (self-made or shop-bought) without inoculating with fresh (frozen) bacteria. Is there higher risk of contamination or some other downsides?
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: FRANCOIS on September 11, 2009, 05:57:00 PM
I keep our solutions for weeks and weeks.  Basically until it starts getting really funky. 

Yes, you certinaly can spread micro from another cheese, it's done all the time.  You should always wash from old to new anyway, but I have also kept rinds from cheeses I liked and washed it back to new cheeses to duplicate.
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: Alex on September 12, 2009, 03:54:59 AM
I do not pasteurize milk for Limburger, I age it at least 60 days. To all cheeses that need B.L., I allways add it to the milk and never had any problem, Of course washing regularly with brine. On the coming fryday I am going to cut a 2 months old Limburger to taste it. I intend to taste it in one and two more month again.

This is how the cheese looks after 2 months and a slice of it:
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: DeejayDebi on September 12, 2009, 10:33:09 AM
Looks really good Alex. Is this limberger? I've never even seen a limberger before it doesn't look scarey.  ;)
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: Alex on September 12, 2009, 01:11:51 PM
It is a Limburger. There are no scarey cheeses for me. The more they stink, the better. I understood your opinion is different. Giv'em a try. Sto hesitating ;).
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: Baby Chee on September 12, 2009, 02:58:08 PM
That is an excellent looking cheese.  I want to eat it.  Now.
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: DeejayDebi on September 12, 2009, 09:20:33 PM
Actually Alex I have never seen it but I have heard it is scarey. I don't know what it taste like but my favorite cheese smells like dirty gym socks.
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: Alex on September 12, 2009, 11:40:46 PM
As you describe it, that's the prefered cheese by me.
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: DeejayDebi on September 13, 2009, 10:25:35 PM
Hmm maybe I should make a limberger. I like strong smelly cheeses with a good Italian bread and olive oil!
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: Minamyna on June 20, 2010, 01:35:22 PM
Francois when you say geo and yeast with the b. linens what does that mean? and what percent of a salt solution should I use?

Thanks!
Jenna
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: FRANCOIS on June 20, 2010, 02:55:30 PM
I always use 3% salt solution for washes.  Brine I go for about 20%.  Geo/yeast means just that.  B. linen washes usually require other microboes to get the rind prepped, so geo 13 with any of quite a few others (like KL71, OFR9 (a mix) and PLA ( a mix) or any of their ingredients individually).  I treally comes down to what you can get from your supplier.
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: linuxboy on June 20, 2010, 03:31:53 PM
Jenna, I do exact same as Francois. 18-22% brine when getting the salt into the cheese out of the press, and 3% washes for regular b linens. B linens needs a pH of 5.8 or higher, and when you take the cheese out of the 20% brine, it's usually somewhere around 5.2. So before b linens can grow, something needs to eat up that lactic acid that's on the surface. Yeasts are really great for that, they both bring up the pH and also produce byproducts that the b linens uses as food.
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: MarkShelton on June 20, 2010, 03:53:28 PM
Does the geo raise the pH also? I didn't have any kl71 when I made my reblochon, and I'm not seeing any kind of color change from the b. linens. Next batch I'll definitely get some, but will I get any b. linens growth on my current batch?
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: FRANCOIS on June 20, 2010, 06:12:49 PM
geo 13 will raise your surface pH slightly but it is normally used because it establishes very quickly, and dies quickly.  It will grow first on the rind and help protect it from parasitic mould while the yeasts act on it.  It will also die off quickly and let the b. linens start to work.
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: Minamyna on June 21, 2010, 12:08:08 AM
so yeast as in bread yeast???!!??
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: linuxboy on June 21, 2010, 12:26:57 AM
Yes, saccharomyses. But more often, it is debaromyces or kluyveromyces, and goes likes this:

Kluyveromyces deacidifies surface some in 1-3 days. It's fast
Then a geo or a penecillin type will start a bloom in 4-6 days, finishes that pH increase up past 6.5.
Then the geo will die off and the b linens will feed on it. The b linens starts about a week into it. B linens MUST have the right food and pH to grow. This includes pantothenic acid. Yeasts produce this naturally. If you were to raise the pH up somehow to 7 on the rind, but didn't have the right food, the b linens still wouldn't grow.

Francois is right, IIRC, the geo strains have different levels of protection against contamination. Geo 13 is helpful for protecting against mucor.

To get a good b linens growth, you either need a tuned cave and smear the culture from an existing cheese to a new one, and then wash it (this is how the smear rinds were originally done), or add some geo or a complex mix like PLA to your b linens 3% wash to help deacidify the surface and pave the way for b linens.

[edit] If the geo runs away and you start getting a slip skin, you can switch to a higher salt % brine, to a 8-10% with just b linens. Geo doesn't like the high salt % and will die off and the b linens can grow on top of it.
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: Zoey on November 19, 2010, 07:56:38 AM

Interesting comments from Francois and linuxboy. (Sorry for bringing up the old thread once more..)

I wonder, if using an existing cheese as the b.linens source brings on the other necessary microflora (yeasts and geo)? Of course this probably depends on many variables, but in general, does it sound doable?

I'm still disliking the idea of additives, and I consider powdered and/or commercial cultures to be additives just as any other. So I'm trying to get my microflora from "human sized" sources, sources that I can understand and imagine.

Also wondering, if I'm using an existing cheese, do the cultures only exist on the rind, or can I use any part of the cheese to make a wash? (I'm thinking hygiene here, so a part of the insides would probably be easier to isolate in a clean environment.)
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: linuxboy on November 19, 2010, 08:41:31 AM
Mostly on the rind, yes. But unless you're really good in your aseptic handling, the interior edges will have some as well after you cut with a knife or other tool. Traditional way to transfer smear rinds has been to transfer from an older generation cheese to a new generation.
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: max1 on November 05, 2011, 11:06:04 AM
Resurrecting this old thread yet again, but it seemed to make sense to keep the information in one place.

If I make a 3% wash with an ale and add a pinch of B.linens to it, will the yeast in the beer be sufficient to deacidify the rind to prepare it for the B.linens?
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: linuxboy on November 05, 2011, 12:17:30 PM
Likely, but not sure of the speed. It's not like all yeasts consume the same food. The yeasts in cheesemaking consume lactate and deacidify that way. using straight saccharamyces is not the same. With b linens, ideally, you want deacidification in 1-2 days to kickstart the growth.

Try it and see :)
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: max1 on November 08, 2011, 04:31:47 AM
Ok, thanks!  I think I will try.

The reason I ask is because living in Belgium, I have no idea where to find Geo.  Is it possible to capture wild geo, or something like that?
Title: Re: Brevibacteria linens Application Methods
Post by: Oude Kaas on November 08, 2011, 07:41:15 AM
France?