Author Topic: Vegtable Coagulant - Cardoon Plant  (Read 10925 times)

Offline Gürkan Yeniçeri

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Vegtable Coagulant - Cardoon Plant
« on: December 15, 2009, 12:42:24 AM »
I am not sure if this question fits into this sub-forum but I am sure David will move it to an appropriate one.

I've read that the plant cardoon's flowers can be collected and brewed like a tea to extract Cardesine A enzyme and used to coagulate the milk instead of rennet and chymosine enzymes.

This technique apparently used by Portuguese artisan cheesemakers and a national cheese in Portugal called Queijo de Nisa is made with this technique.

I have collected some of the flower around here and planning to try this but I do not have a recipe or the measures for this cheese. Are there any Portuguese cheesemakers on the forum who knows about this cheese and possibly the recipe?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 11:36:06 PM by GurkanYeniceri »

Offline Gürkan Yeniçeri

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Re: Vegtable Coagulant - Cardoon Plant
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2009, 12:58:29 AM »
OK, I have got some whey from latest gouda and subsequent ricotta making. I put the cardoon flower stems into a jar with about 300ml of whey.

For normal rennet making, abomasum put in whey + vinegar solution to better release of enzymes chymosin, rennin etc. So I am thinking that the whey's acidic property will help Cardesine A enzyme to come out. I am planning to keep this at room temp for a week and strain & use it with 2 litres of milk to see if I can get a clean break. Results will be coming soon.

I wonder what the taste would be like at the end

mtncheesemaker

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Re: Vegtable Coagulant - Cardoon Plant
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2009, 03:24:55 AM »
Hey Gurkan;
Thanks for exploring! Interested to hear your results.
Pam

linda.constable

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Re: Vegtable Coagulant - Cardoon Plant
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2009, 08:51:01 PM »
Happy New Year to all from New Zealand. I saw a programme on Portugese cheese making where they ground some dried stamen of the artichoke or cardoon to set the milk. No idea of quantities but I am going to try with some of ours once summer has passed.

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Vegtable Coagulant - Cardoon Plant
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2010, 03:49:00 AM »
It's always fun to watch these experiments. There is so much to be gleaned from them.

Offline Cheddarhead

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Re: Vegtable Coagulant - Cardoon Plant
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2010, 11:12:24 PM »
GurkanYeniceri,
I am also waiting to hear what results you get from this experiement. What is the 'cardoon flower's' scientific name? (if possible) Could you also possibly  post up a picture of the plant you used?
:)
Alynxia

Offline Gürkan Yeniçeri

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Re: Vegtable Coagulant - Cardoon Plant
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2010, 11:45:07 PM »
Hi Alynxia,

I am very very tired these days because of thyroxine medicine withdrawal period and not feeling like making any cheese. I am on half dose of my usual daily dosage for 6 weeks.

The wikipedia link is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardoon it is a thistle family plant. My wife was also using these "blessed thistle" herbal pills to increase milk production and she was saying it works. There are some left of those pills and next step I am going to use those.

My starting point "putting them in whey" may be wrong based on Linda's entry about the documentary she watched. I will collect some more again and dry them.

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Re: Vegtable Coagulant - Cardoon Plant
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2010, 01:49:44 PM »
Hi everyone!

Just joined the forum to leave a piece of info on how to use the cardoon...

Lately I've been nurturing the idea of making cheese. Since I want to do it according to my country's tradition, cardoon is a main ingredient to remember.

I called my aunt who used to make cheeses in her youth in 1940's/1950's Portugal and she told me they used to leave the cardoon in some water overnight (if they were planning to make some cheese in the morning); the following morning they'd remove it from the water (keeping the water) and use a stone to ground the cardoon. The grounded cardoon was then put in the initial water and left for a while longer (she wasn't very specific but I think it's not necessary a huge amount of time, just a few minutes). This would then be put through a colander in order to separate the liquid from the plant, and that was it. They would add this to the milk and follow subsequent cheese making procedure.

Hope this helps.


justsocat

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Re: Vegtable Coagulant - Cardoon Plant
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2010, 02:06:45 PM »
Hi and welcome, Rita!
What do you think was the purpose of grounding cardoon? I can't figure what it could be done for?

Offline PFFParra

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Re: Vegtable Coagulant - Cardoon Plant
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2010, 03:08:21 AM »
Hi

The purpose was to ease the release of the enzymes of the cardoon into the water destroying the plant structure, once the solid phase wasn't put into contact with the milk.

Queijo de Nisa, Queijo de Évora, Queijo de Serpa, Queijo de Azeitão and Queijo Serra da Estrela are traditional portuguese cheeses made with cardoon. All of them are made from ewe's milk and most of them have a very soft texture and cardoon as an important role on this carachteristic. The dry cardoon flower (Cynara cardunculus) is macerated with some water and salt. The resultant paste should be left for at least 1hour in order to aid the enzymes to be released to the water. This solution has to be filtered (a cloth may be used) to prevent the mixture of solids into the milk. This solution is dark browned. The ammount of cardoon depends on the quality of it. The proteolytic enzymes are mainly in the purple parts of it, so if the dry cardoon you get has many brown parts you should increase the dosis. 0,2g/l may be used as a reference.

Cynara cardunculus image at:  http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JpbZjqaoBEA/SwAWmpRAyeI/AAAAAAAAM1Y/vpXMO76QWro/s400/cardo.jpg
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 03:37:27 AM by PFFParra »

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Vegtable Coagulant - Cardoon Plant
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2010, 04:00:20 PM »
I am very curious to try this come summer. I have attempted to reconstruct serveral Portugeese recipes but I haven't been able to try them in winter without this plant. Unfortunately I will have to try to research them again since they were lost in my crash last month but they looked very interesting.

Welcome Rita Linda and PF - I don't believe I have found you intro posts yet.

Offline Gürkan Yeniçeri

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Re: Vegtable Coagulant - Cardoon Plant
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2010, 10:08:22 PM »
I am busy with a business venture these days and couldn't get to this cheese yet. I have cardoon stems sitting in a selaed jar with whey for more than 3 months now and I do not think the enzyme Cardesine A is alive in there. there is no mould in the jar though.

I have collected some more stems and drying now. As soon as I have some time to spare, I will do this.

Debi,
Do you have a specific recipe for Nisa cheese? I am thinking something like cheddar or gruyere as a base.

PFFParra,
Thanks for the info. Do you have simple recipe for home implementation of this cheese?

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Vegtable Coagulant - Cardoon Plant
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2010, 03:23:09 AM »
Gurkan -

I have not heard of this one. Do you know what country it is from? I could search for you. It helps to search in the native language. I will look.

Offline PFFParra

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Re: Vegtable Coagulant - Cardoon Plant
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2010, 12:14:05 PM »
Hi Gurkan

Queijo de Nisa is a AOP (appélation d'origine protegée) ewe's milk cheese. The original one has to be made from a specific sheep's breed: Merina Branca.
Once you get the milk (not necessarily Merina Branca) and the cardoon you can try a replica at home. You have to be sure about the quality of the milk because this is used raw and indigenous microflora is important to be low. The average of the coagulation temperature is 28ºC, so you should heat the milk, add salt directly into the milk and stir until it's solved (12g/liter). Then the cardoon should be added (0,2 g/liter - as written above). The coagulation time is expected to be 1h to 1h15m.
Reached that time the curd has to be cut stirred with a knife or a spoon in order to get irregular but small grains that should be put into a cloth to expel the whey. The cloth has be manually pressed until most of the whey is out. The dryed curd should be transfered to the mold and pressed hardly for an 1h30m.
The cheese has to be ripended for at least 45 days to get the desired characteristics and to assure food safety (made from raw milk). Industries use this ripening program
15-18 days - 8 to 10ºC - 80 to 90% Relativ humidity
30-40 days - 10 to 14ºC - 85 to 90% Relative humidity

I got this info from a phonecall, so as soon as i get some more relevant and accurate info i'll post it here.
Meanwhile if you have any specific doubts i'll be glad to try to answer.

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Re: Vegtable Coagulant - Cardoon Plant
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2011, 02:17:49 AM »
If anyone is still interested, I have tried the cardoon cheese with raw ewe’s milk about a year ago, in conditions very similar to what PFFParra has described. It worked beautifully. Not only the cardoon coagulates the milk, it also adds flavor to it. Now I have loads of cardoon flowers drying, but due to the dry conditions of this NZ summer, I do not have any ewe’s milk any longer. Will try now with cow’s milk, as it also works.
Cheers,