Curd Slump?

[EvilTessmacher]

I can't think of a better term for it other than the one I've come up with.

I am currently in the ripening process of making a Bleu dAuvergne from this recipe: http://www.cheesemaking.com/BlueAuvergne.html (two-gallon size) and I don't think it's going to turn out correctly.

The problem I think I am having is that the curd is slumping. That tells me something else is wrong.

What I mean by "slump" is this: In the image below, on the left, is what the curd looked like after it came out of the mold. Roughly 6" in diameter (15.25cm) and about 5" (12.7cm) tall with crisp, sharp edges. The next morning, after I had left it to rest overnight, I found that it had slumped to the shape on the right. about 8.5" (21.7cm) and about 2.5" (6.4 cm) and very rounded, almost like a gouda thats flat on top and bottom. That's clearly not the right shape, I believe.



It's been going since April 1, just over a month now, and I am not seeing any blue mold development, even after aerating (piercing) the cheese. I've also noticed a very faint tinge of sour smell, not at all what a good bleu cheese smells like.

I think this is going to be a rank failure, but I don't understand what's going on. I followed all temperatures, times, and cultures to the letter, draining, 4lb weight to settle the cheese in the mold per the recipe, and everything. I just don't understand what's going wrong.

Can anyone offer any experience?

[Dorchestercheese]

How long was it in the mold? How many flips did you do?

[River Bottom Farm]

Too much moisture. Did you use floc method? Did you check pH along the way? What type of thermometer are you using if it is the dial/pointer style have you calibrated it? Also like was already mentioned how long in the mild and what was the flipping schedule?

[EvilTessmacher]

How long was it in the mold? How many flips did you do?

It was in the mold for as long as the recipe called for, and I flipped it as many times as the recipe called for.

[EvilTessmacher]

Too much moisture.

That makes some sense, but as I followed the directions to the letter, and that's how its supposed to be done, how could there be too much moisture? I understand that such a thing is possible, but I do not understand the mechanism by which it could be. If I followed the directions precisely, to the minute, to the degree, to every detail, I would have had to let it drain a considerably longer length of time in order to have less moisture. If the directions called for 1 hour of draining, and I did that, but it really needed 3 hours draining, doesn't that mean the directions are wrong? Why publish them if they're wrong? How could people know every little detail in advance, if you don't tell them?

Did you use floc method? Did you check pH along the way?

I don't know what any of that means, and none of it was mentioned in the directions. If it had been, I'd have looked up what it meant, and followed the instructions to the letter.

What type of thermometer are you using if it is the dial/pointer style have you calibrated it?

I have a restaurant-grade dial thermometer, obtained from a local restaurant supply store, guaranteed to be perfectly, precisely accurate out of the box, and have never heard of any thermometer ever having to be calibrated. If they were wrong out of the box they'd be totally useless.

Then again, if this one was wrong out of the box, then it is totally useless.

How, exactly, would one calibrate a thermometer in the first place? The way the one I have is designed, you can't change anything in it. It's a sealed unit. Any attempt to change the dial position, the needle position, or anything else would result in instant, total, and catastrophic destruction of the thermometer.

Also like was already mentioned how long in the mold and what was the flipping schedule?

It was done exactly per the instructions in the directions in the link in my first post, whatever they were. Followed to the letter. To the degree, to the minute, everything. If it didn't turn out exactly as it should have, then the directions are wrong, and not my following of them.

If the directions are not precisely what it takes to make the cheese exactly right the first time, then it's like baking a cake to take to a party, and following the recipe you have exactly, but when someone at the party asks for your recipe, you change it before you give it to them. Why do that? Why have things that need to be done that you don't mention?

That's exactly what I don't understand: Why are there all these other hidden and secret bits of critical information which are never mentioned?

I've never had any trouble so far with any of the other cheeses I've made by following the directions exactly. Both my Bel Paese cheeses turned out perfectly. The one Havarti I've done came out great, even if it tasted nothing like any Havarti I've ever eaten. I made a Butterkase that was nearly as good as the one I got from the store, except for the fact that the store-bought one tasted exactly the same until it was all eaten up, but the one I made started to develop this "fermented" smell and flavor three or four days after being finished. I followed the directions as precisely as possible in all of those cheeses, exactly to the details and instructions, and they all came out perfectly fine. Now people are talking about things I've never heard of in any of the instructions for any cheeses I've ever read.  I don't get it. It's like expecting me to be psychic before I even start.

[GortKlaatu]

Hmmmm I've used that recipe without problems before, so based on what you're saying, I'd have to agree that it's sounds like your curds were too wet (not cooked enough.) In fact, the recipe says: "The last two steps (#3&4) of whey drainage and stirring are intended to firm the curd surfaces while maintaining the internal moisture. This 'Grain' development is very important for this cheese and perhaps one of the most challenging parts of this recipe.The final curds should be still plump and springy and should be examined to make sure that the curds have a light skin on the surface and remain somewhat heavy in the hand. They should not slump together excessively (too wet) or seem to firm throughout (too dry)."
I wouldn't let it stop you from trying it again, Keep us posted.

[GortKlaatu]

Ahhhh your last post came in while I was typing my last response.
If I'm not mistaken, some months ago, you had similar questions like this also.
Here's the bottom line, that like it or not, is just the truth of things.  There are soooo many variables that go into making cheese that it is NOT like following a recipe for a cake or even your favorite casserole--because the ingredients you're working with for those things are stable, and if you follow the recipe, it will turn out 98-100% the same every time. Making cheese isn't like that. For one thing, in making cheese we are relying on populations of bacteria to grow and to multiply and to "do their thing." And they do that "thing" at varying rates depending on multiple factors that a recipe can NOT account for.  That isn't something that happens in making potato salad or baked beans--so you can rely on those recipes to come out the same each time if you follow them exactly. Making cheese isn't like that. It uses science-- but is an art. I totally get how it seems like an empirical recipe should always be the same, but we are coercing multiple bacterial (and yeast and mold) populations to behave as we want them to. However, because they are living organisms and not an inert ingredient (like flour in a cake) they don't always behave the way we want them to or how a recipe indicates they should. (I have degrees in microbiology and chemistry so I totally get how that can be frustrating.)

When the recipe says cook until the curds are firm--what does "firm" mean to you...or to me...or someone else.  Lots of variation there. The times are approximate--close, but not exact. Why?  Because the milk you use may have higher or lower protein and/or fat components than someone else's (or what was used in the recipe.) Or maybe you're using cow milk for a recipe that was originally intended to be made with goat milk. Or you're using raw milk versus pasteurized. Or the pH of your milk might be at 6.55 when you start whereas the milk someone else used could be at 6.70--and that can make a huge difference in how fast initial acidification takes place (Therefore the time suggested--and that is what it is, a suggestion, not a set in stone rule) will be off.  This is why many of us also rely on things like flocculation time and pH monitoring. (if you don't know what those things are about exactly, there are several excellent descriptions on the forum that you can search for.) Perhaps it is end of lactation milk versus early lactation, etc. The amount of culture affects things greatly--and the smaller the quantity of milk you're using the more room for error occurs in the measurement of cultures. This is why many people recommend using DCU instead partial teaspoon measurements. (Again another thing you can look up.) There are myriad other factors that greatly change what happens when making cheese....so following a recipe "to the letter" will NOT always end up with the same cheese.  Even those of us that have made the same cheese many, many times, find that we have to sometimes adjust the make on the fly as we follow the guidelines of the recipe. Because cheese recipes are good guidelines but not absolutes, the cheese you're making has to be monitored and modified as you gauge what is happening during the process. (This is very UN-like Grandma's Cole Slaw or Uncle Henry's BBQ sauce recipes which are the same everytime.)


I know that drives you crazy...I hear it when I read the frustration you have in your posts. But this IS the way of it with cheesemaking. And that's why it takes a long time to become a good cheesemaker....lots of experience supersedes the basic recipe.


Let me make a suggestion to you....buy this book:  Mastering Artisan Cheesemaking by Gianaclis Caldwell.  It goes into the kind of detail that explains the questions you have in precise, scientifically based ways, and it will help you avoid the frustration as you gain the deeper understanding of the "art" that goes way beyond the "simple recipe."


P.S. Many thermometers--especially high grade ones--can be calibrated. Most times the way it is done is by holding the hex nut under the face of the thermometer while rotating the head (for analog types.) Electronic ones sometimes have a program that allows them to be adjusted +/- a degree or two.
P.P.S.  We are here to help each, so I hope this helps you.

[Gregore]

It is possible that the recipe is incorrect, it would not be the first time it has happened that members have notice inaccuracies in a make recipe.  But more likely is that whom ever came up with the recipe had it work for them with thier milk and culture

If you were to transport a professional daily cheese maker to another country they would would have to be very on the ball to make a cheese exactly like it turns out at home, in another country,with different milk,  and a different culture packet .

Don’ worry too much about it i always find i have to make a recipe multiple times each time making small changes till it is finishing the way I like , and that may even be different from how the original maker liked to make it .

It’s this randomness that needs controlling that allows some cheeses to really shine above and beyond others , and it will allow you to make cheeses that both surprise and disappoint you.

I agree about the above advice on the book , at first all the info will blend together and sort of make  very little sense in a cohesive whole. What I did was read a chapter or so  while I was waiting for the next step in the cheese making process , week after week , when I got to the end I would start again .  Soon you will be typing out advice for the newbies .

Actually half the time I feel like a newbie.

[River Bottom Farm]

Gort you have nailed it. If all the ingredients we're always the same it would be easy but the main ingredient (milk) is extremely variable and you have to find ways to deal with it. ph, coagulation time, pH curve etc etc all have effects on moisture content of the curds. As for calibrating dial thermometers as Gort said you hold the nut at the base of the thermometer and turn the face of the thermometer untill it reads right. As for getting the thermometer to a known temperature for calibrating use a glass full of ice with a little bit of water added leave thermometer in for a few min and adjust the needle to 0 deg C. You could use boiling water but boiling temp varies with altitude