Author Topic: Very long flocc time  (Read 10125 times)

Offline awakephd

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Re: Very long flocc time
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2019, 02:02:36 PM »
Let us know if / how it works!
-- Andy

cheesehead94

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Re: Very long flocc time
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2019, 02:09:58 PM »
Ah, sounds like you're on to something. I confess that I just boil/steam the plastic equipment as well as the metal - but I boil any cheesecloths that I will be using at the same time, and make sure they are on the bottom, so that they are less likely to melt by being in direct contact. Measurement with a thermometer indicates that with a couple of inches of water in the bottom at a good boil, and a lid or other mechanism to hold the steam in, the temperature in the steam is well above what is needed for sterilizing. At least, it has worked for me for about 110 cheeses made now ... :)

So, to make sure I am understanding correctly, you put a few inches of boiling water in the bottom of your cheese vat/pot and then throw everything else inside and shut the lid? Also, how long do you let it steam for?

My kitchen isn’t super pristenely clean, so I always sanitize with diluted bleach, which seems to work but I’m always paranoid about any bleach residue that doesn’t rinse off affecting the flavor of my cheese.

Offline awakephd

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Re: Very long flocc time
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2019, 03:02:09 PM »
So, here's my procedure. First I make sure my cheese pot is clean (no residues or any such that might have slipped by in the last cleaning), and rinse it out with filtered water. (I have a filter at my kitchen sink to supply filtered, chlorine-free water - I use this throughout the process, but one could use distilled water instead.) I put in the utensils for the first stage of cheese making - measuring spoons, skimmer/spoon, ladle, tongs (useful for fishing things out that get dropped in, as well as later in the process), cutter, etc. The vertical cutter is just a very large cake spatula; the blade is in the pot, but the handle extends out. I put the thermometer in as deep as possible, with the head still outside. I add 2-3" of filtered water, put on the lid (it doesn't fit fully due to the thermometer and cutter sticking out, but sits as flat as possible), and set it on the stove on high. Once it comes to a full boil, with lots of steam, I turn it down a bit - enough to keep a full boil, but not wasting energy - and set a timer for 10 minutes.

In the meantime, once the pot is on the stove, I fill the sink with hot water and put the jugs of milk in to start warming. Depending on the amount of milk and the heat of the water, the milk usually reaches 70-80°F during this time, leaving very little more to do to get it warmed up to ripening temperature. Note that my hot water is not super hot, so if yours is, you may need to experiment with an appropriate temperature if you want to use this step.

Also in the meantime, I fill a small pot with filtered water and put it on the stove to bring it to boiling - this will be used for sanitizing anything that has been used, but needs to be used again. I keep this pot just at the simmer.

Also in the meantime, I use a bleach solution in a spray bottle to spray down the counter where I will keep the utensils during the process. After letting that sit for a few minutes, I wipe it dry with a paper towel - I do not rinse it, just wipe it dry. It is important to note that this is not straight bleach; according to the label on the bleach bottle, for sanitizing you use a solution that is actually quite dilute. (I'm guessing that after drying the counter, any chlorine residue essentially gasses off.) On this sterilized counter, I lay out a fresh, clean kitchen towel. The various utensils will rest on this. This begs the question of whether the towel is sanitary, and/or whether, with the towel in the middle, it matters that I have sanitized the counter. I don't know the answers, but I've been doing it this way for 110+ cheeses with no problems, so ... it ain't broke, I ain't fixin' it!

ALSO in the meantime (lots going on in this meantime!), I put ~1/4 cup of filtered water into each of two or three cups and put them in the microwave. I run the microwave on high for about 3 minutes so that the water is boiling. I use one of these to dissolve the CaCl crystals that I use to add CaCl to the milk; I put the others in the fridge to cool. They will be used for diluting annatto, rennet, etc. before they are added.

Whew! The timer has gone off, so now I empty the boiling water out of the pot and lay out my utensils on the towel, making sure that measuring spoons are dry so that the residual heat can thoroughly dry them before I use them to measure cultures. I pour my milk into the pot and put it on the stove - I have found that with my stove, I can use direct heat, carefully chosen, with equal or better results compared to using the water bath that I used to use. I add in the CaCl solution and stir it in, and gently heat the milk up to the final ripening temperature. I add the cultures, wait 5 minutes for them to melt it, then stir the cultures in well. At this point I put the lid on and let it ripen for whatever time is called for; in the meantime, I wash the skimmer/spoon or anything else that will be reused, rinsing thoroughly including a final rinse with filtered water, and put it/them in the small pot to sanitize.

When the cheesemaking is within about 30 minutes of being ready to drain the curds, I do the second stage of sanitizing. I have another large pot (though not as large as my cheesemaking pot) that I make sure is thoroughly clean and rinsed, and rinsed with filtered water. I put the cheesecloths that I will use in the bottom of this pot, and on top of that put the plastic mesh, mold(s), follower, etc. I add 3" or so of water and put this on the stove, bringing it to a boil. Over the top I drape my colander - it is way too big to fit into any pot, so I let the steam sanitize it. I have to rotate it every few minutes to be sure all of it has had a chance to steam.

A few minutes before I am ready to use all of this equipment, I use the sanitized tongs to fish out all the plastic pieces and lay them on the towel. I pour out as much water as I can, then use the tongs to squeeze the cheesecloths to expel as much more water as possible. I lay the colander over top of the towel, and use the tongs to pull out and drape the cheesecloths so that they can cool a bit. (Alternately, I may set the colander up in the sink for draining, and drape the cheesecloths there.) It is very important to spread the cloth out at least a little - hard to do with the tongs, but as much as possible - and give a couple of minutes; otherwise they will stay way too hot to handle. Once they are cool enough, I squeeze out any excess water (be careful - may still be very hot water inside the cooler exterior!). Whatever cloth will be involved in draining gets set up in the colander; others get set on the towel.

Whew! It sounds like a lot of work when I describe it like this, but really it is all very simple, and takes very little time. A few additional notes. One is that, except for the molds, follower, plastic mesh, and cheesecloth, all of my equipment and utensils are good-quality stainless steel. As long as the plastic is not resting directly against the bottom of the pot, the plastic seems to hold up just fine with the heat sanitizing. The second note is that I wash and rinse my hands thoroughly throughout the process - any time I've been away to do anything else and come back, I wash, rinse, and dry before picking up any utensils. Finally, though I use bleach to sterilize the counter, neither the cheese nor the utensils actually contact that counter - so no worries about any bleach flavor getting into the cheese.

I make absolutely no claims that any of this is the right way to do it! This is just the way I have done it, for many years now, and it has worked for me. If you adopt any of this, let us know if it does or does not work for you.
-- Andy

Offline TravisNTexas

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Re: Very long flocc time
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2019, 02:31:34 PM »
Thanks for that Andy.  That's very helpful indeed to a newbie like I am!
-Travis

cheesehead94

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Re: Very long flocc time
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2019, 03:31:55 PM »
Thank you! I’ll give that a shot next time!

Offline awakephd

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Re: Very long flocc time
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2019, 09:18:26 PM »
Thanks to you both - again, YMMV, but it has worked well for me!
-- Andy

Offline mikekchar

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Re: Very long flocc time
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2019, 03:22:07 AM »
I tried your boil method and it worked very well.  It's much more convenient than iodophor. I'm still using iodophor for the mould, though, as I can't get everything in my canning pot at the same time (and that side of things is working for me).

I also made another change to my routine.  I got some  "Pure natural water from Mount Fuji" bottled water and used that instead of my tap water for dilution.  My recipe today was a bit different (following a variant of iratherfly's reblochon recipe).  So I had a ripening time of 55 minutes at 35 C and renneting at 34 C, so the pH is going to be lower and the temperature higher than my normal 31 C.  Got a flocc time of 13 minutes today... which is just about bang on what iratherfly estimates, but I can't quite understand why it isn't faster.  Anyway, things seem to be progressing as one would expect, so no complaints.  Hopefully that's put an end to the sluggish rennet story for me.

A cheese for your help awakephd!

Offline awakephd

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Re: Very long flocc time
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2019, 11:30:05 PM »
Thank you! Glad it helped. Mt. Fuji water, huh ... I can't seem to find that here in rural North Carolina. :)
-- Andy

Offline mikekchar

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Re: Very long flocc time
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2019, 05:29:08 AM »
So... 4 months later and I finally realised what my *actual* problem was.  Even after I improved my process, I found that I needed more rennet than most recipes reported and I just figured my rennet was not in good shape.  In reality, all this time I thought it was double strength rennet.  It's single strength.  It's written on the label :-P  So when things were not working well, I was using about half of the rennet I should have been.

Offline awakephd

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Re: Very long flocc time
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2019, 08:15:50 PM »
Oh, I hate it when I realize that the answer has been right in front of me the whole time - amazing how we can not see something that is right there!!
-- Andy

Offline Susan38

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Re: Very long flocc time
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2019, 02:57:19 AM »
Well, Mike, awhile back I *accidentally* put twice as much culture in my cream cheese as I should have, and some of us speculated what might happen because of that, but it turned out it didn't make a huge difference in the outcome.

Now, thanks to your experiences with using half the recommended amount of rennet, we know what the outcome is!  Very long flocc times!  But yet with successful results.  Good to know.

BTW, someone awhile back posted that way too much rennet was accidentally added to their cheese make, and preliminary results were that things appeared normal.  I guess the take home message is maybe we don't need to be always exactly precise in cheesemaking and things may still turn out well.

I'm just glad you finally got to the bottom of the flocc time mystery!

Offline awakephd

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Re: Very long flocc time
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2019, 01:39:47 PM »
I do think there is room for variation, within some limits. After all, if one is using raw milk, it will be changing over the course of the year, and it will be different depending on where the cows have grazed / what they have eaten. Caldwell's book talks about how to adjust "on the fly" when things don't turn out quite as expected - very helpful.
-- Andy

AnnDee

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Re: Very long flocc time
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2019, 04:08:20 PM »
Iodophor might be the problem. I was told to avoid it being used on our milking equipments, let alone cheesemaking equipments. :)