Moisture and/or pH vs. the "Grip Test"

[mikekchar]

only that calcium cause the knitting

Ah!  That's a crucial piece of the puzzle I've been missing.  Thank you!  I must ponder the ramifications :-)

[Bantams]

@Gregore In my experience curds are happy to stick at any phase - just cut, partway through cooking, when they're ready to mold...
This is for Tomme and Alpine types. Fresh raw cows milk. 
I think a lot of it has to do with the depth of the vat and how much pressure is on the curds.  Home cheesemakers usually have 15" or less in their pot; commercial cheesemakers have 24-36" in the vat. Makes a huge difference. 

[Chetty]

Another thing to think about in this line of though is hydrophobic interactions.  Curds have water loving and water repelling sides.  These change with temp, ph, and calcium content.  Its complicated, that's why if you want a constant product being able to accurately measure ph, temp, time are all important. 

[Gregore]

 Bantam
Very interesting that depth of vat would have an effect , but I can see why .
As for the fresh raw cows milk curds liking to knit at any stage after cutting , for sure my curds made from raw cows milk that is how ? old , a week maybe a little more maybe less , they do not knit straight away usually takes 10 to 15 minutes of stirring  ( I have never timed it so could be off by 50%) but I am also thinking that maybe the higher ph the milk the sooner the knitting as I noticed during the last batch of cheese I had to stir more than usual to keep them apart and the milk was a higher ph than normal so I am guessing fresher

Just found this and have yet to read through it

https://www.cheesescience.org/calcium.html

Interesting ideas  thanks

Gregore

[stephmtl222]

Have a look at this other variation of the manual evaluation of texture/moisture content and readiness for draining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr_NVzryOjw&t=890s

After he very lightly press some curd, he rolll it in his hand. If the curd ball doesn't break appart, it's ready to drain/dipping.
I suppose that there are a lot of variations of these tests among worldwide cheesemakers.

[rsterne]

I don't speak French, but you state....

If the curd ball doesn't break apart, it's ready to drain/dipping.

As curds are cooked longer, they dry out and the pH drops, so they break apart easier.... Do you mean that once it starts to break apart it is ready to drain?....

Bob

[stephmtl222]

Word for word he is saying :
« I know it by hand, you know. The grain has become firmer, you see ? The ball must not break apart, it must hold together when we roll it like that, when the tome is... when it's good.»
I'm sure he is using that observation for many years and developed his own markers. At first, the curd is too soft to make a ball then when the curd is dry/acid enough, he can then make a ball. He then estimate how long he can keep stirring, expelling whey and acidify from what he observed with his curd ball test.
But your interpretation make sense. He probably let it expel whey and acidify in the vat as long as the ball can hold together in his test, and based on his feeling and long experience.
I find it very interesting to see the diversity of techniques developed by old and traditional cheesemakers.

[rsterne]

If you notice, right at the end of him rolling it in his palm it starts to fall apart.... I think THAT is probably what he is waiting for, as it is likely a very precise consistency at that point (moisture, pH, calcium content).... As you say, years of experience.... Yes, it's great to see another method, I am going to try this along with my grip test to see how they relate.... Wonderful to see a commercial producer that is still "hands on" (cows to cheese), rather than the huge vats right at the end of the video, where it is done by machine....

Bob

[rsterne]

I have tried rolling a "log" of cheese in the palm of my hand the last couple of makes, to see how that technique compares to making a ball of curds in your hand and teasing it apart with your thumb.... First of all, the log won't roll unless it's quite round, which is why you see him compressing it several times (to get it round).... The curds will stay together and roll in your palm long before you can tease them apart easily with your thumb, so IMO his test gives a higher pH for draining (than the "teasing" method).... As you continue to cook the curds, they start to fall apart when you roll them.... If they are not cooked enough, when you squeeze them, they extrude out the ends and through your fingers.... So, I'm guessing that his years of experience give him a relatively narrow pH range where the curds will stay together when he rolls them....

Bob

[scasnerkay]

To tease this a bit more… I made a batch of cheese where the physical characteristics seemed to be developing just fine: flocc test, cutting, stirring, cooking, texture, grip test, draining, forming, and even into the press.
The pH never behaved properly even though the meter was calibrated. The taste of the curd did not acidify.
The cheese make was a loss.
Turns out there was not enough days gone by since the cow had received antibiotics.
The next make was fine/normal.
For me I tend to think of texture and pH to be two separate but related measurements.