Author Topic: Raffine Challenge...  (Read 7197 times)

Offline bansidhe

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Re: Raffine Challenge...
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2021, 09:23:42 PM »
Nice update.  Mine barely spread at all.  I was kind of disappointed in that but somewhat relived yours didn't either.  I don't check pH yet so I cannot comment on that.  I may have to invest in pH meter if I keep this cheese thing ujp. :-)
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Offline OzzieCheese

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Re: Raffine Challenge...
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2021, 12:28:53 AM »
Don't give up! I had a several failures through out my cheese journey. The info in this forum help me solve a lot of these failures. As far a pH meter I used paper pH strips for many, many cheeses. You can buy these in the US as well of order from Green living Australia

https://www.greenlivingaustralia.com.au/cheese-making/equipment-accessories/ph-strips/


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Offline bansidhe

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Re: Raffine Challenge...
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2021, 12:35:46 AM »
Very nice.  So do you put the strips in the whey the has drained off or on the cheese itself?
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Offline OzzieCheese

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Re: Raffine Challenge...
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2021, 12:51:08 AM »
In the morning the cheeses were a nice shape and the pH was tested to be in a very good range. But I would like to backtrack a little here and just comment on the whey draining phase as it was a good insight on the secret that removing the whey holds.
As you remove the whey you are actually pressing the curds in the pot and removing the whey. During this process it was necessary to gently lift and separate the curds after you remove whey - I was removing about
700mls at a time. The other aspect I think is the role temperature plays in this as well. Keeping temperature constant keeps the pH change going at a good clip in time for the hooping.
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Offline OzzieCheese

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Re: Raffine Challenge...
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2021, 12:56:29 AM »
I cut about 3mm off the roll and used tweezers to either dip into the whey or take a sample of curd and press the strip into it and then compare the colours on the reference chart.
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Offline OzzieCheese

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Re: Raffine Challenge...
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2021, 01:09:02 AM »
For those who have read the previous posts on this topic, I have added some images of my attempt. I will add the images of the aging process as this is where the cheese makes it's difference known.

Images Added

This is how I interpreted the aging setup.
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Offline bansidhe

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Re: Raffine Challenge...
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2021, 01:22:50 AM »
Very nice.  They look like mine did except square. :-).  What are the dimensions of your molds?
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Offline OzzieCheese

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Re: Raffine Challenge...
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2021, 10:51:22 AM »
The molds are just the standard 100mm square fetta molds. Nothing too fancy, just what I had on hand.  How are your cheeses aging so far?
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Offline bansidhe

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Re: Raffine Challenge...
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2021, 07:32:37 PM »
I asked about the mold because I only got three cheeses out of it.  I think that's about right given the area of my circles vs your squares.. assuming height is approximately the same.  Anyway, my rind got a bit too dry so on one of them it's flaking off a bit.  The underlying paste sure looks nice though. I posted a pic yesterday of it.  They are in the cheese cave at 60 degrees and 87% humidity.  I should have done that at the very beginning but I left them at room temperature.   I'll definitely be making this again knowing what I know now!  How about your cheese babies? 
« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 07:39:54 PM by bansidhe »
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Offline bansidhe

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Re: Raffine Challenge...
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2021, 07:41:17 PM »
Oh I would like to add that I like how you comment on everything during your process.  That gives me ideas of the the sorts of things I should be observing and making note of.  Thanks!
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Offline OzzieCheese

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Re: Raffine Challenge...
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2021, 09:32:44 PM »
I would have achieved a slightly higher yield with the addition of the 600lms of cream. If you don’t mind a comment here on your make notes, I noticed that your setting time was really fast. This makes for a very fragile curd. The flocculation factor is a sort of a indication of the casin structure being built in the cheese and the amount of moisture and fats it captures. Notice I didn’t say soft but, fragile. They appear initially to be set but as soon as you cut or disturb the curd, the structure collapses and the internal moisture and fat escape into the whey. The description in the original recipe listed a ‘thickening’ in 10 to 15 minutes and a total coagulation time of 30 minutes. This indicates a floc factor of somewhere between two and three. And as we were not doing anything else to firm up the curds apart from the gradual draining of the whey, the curds are very fragile. I also have a standardised rennet that I know I can get a floc point with 3mls of rennet at 10-12 minutes (actually achieved 11.5 minutes) for 8 litres and then applied the original factor of three to give a total time before cutting of 34 minutes (rounded up). This floc factor is the first point of consistency, getting a correct cut for the cheese you are making. This is one of the reasons I write so much, so I don’t forget what I did.
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Offline mikekchar

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Re: Raffine Challenge...
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2021, 12:04:08 AM »
I noticed that your setting time was really fast. This makes for a very fragile curd.

Just so I understand what you are getting at, are you saying that a faster flocculation time increases curd shattering, or that a shorter multiplier increases curd shattering?  I assume the former.  I've not heard that before, but it certainly makes some sense.  I've been experimenting with homogenised milk (because it is cheaper and also because I'm stubborn and want to see if I can make decent cheese with it).  Shattering is a huge problem.  For hard cheeses, I've been cutting early (mutliplier of 2.0 - 2.5), but not stirring.  This helps the curd drain a bit and make the curds less fragile when you get to a multiplier of 3.0 - 3.5.  However, I did not consider the idea of slowing down the flocculation.  In fact, someone on reddit gave me the idea that cutting back the amount of culture.  Since you can't stir as vigorously, it takes longer to dry out the curds.  This means that you need to acidify more slowly to hit your pH targets.  If I *also* cut back on the ripening time (and potentially cut the temperature by 1-2 degrees C), I could slow down the flocculation time which *might* allow a more gentle capture of the whey... Hmmm... something to think about.

Offline bansidhe

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Re: Raffine Challenge...
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2021, 01:28:23 AM »
Yeah, I did notice the set time was REALLY fast. I was shocked.  But the recipe said floc time between ten and 15 minutes but to cut at 30.  Well, if the set time is 15 then that would be a cut time of 2.  I waited to 25 minutes I think.  Which is a multiplier of 5.  Wouldn't that mean I'd have a lot of extra moisture ? 
As I said, I will try this again.  In fact, I have many these I want to do again. They've all been good but I dont know if they have been right.
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Offline OzzieCheese

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Re: Raffine Challenge...
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2021, 02:06:46 AM »
There is a lot to unpack here and, please, I'm only going on what I read and seen. Faster Floc. times and applying the same floc factor to guage the cutting time will result in a much more open curd structure and will result in less moisture and fats being encapsulated within it. I am just paraphrasing my understanding of the process. The shorter multiplier, the mushier it will be and you wont achieve a clean break - it will have no supporting structure - minimal at best. I only have a rudimentary understanding of the curd formation process but the cleaving of the kappa protein from the casein minicule and when the enzyme in rennet cleaves the κ-Casein the net negative charge is reduced and they start clumping together. But the faster they do that the weaker the overall structure, it's a bit like over cooking concrete.

Yes you can make cheese from homogenized milk but the fat retention within the curd structure is not good. Homogenization, and it is totally a cosmetic thing, has several detrimental side effects for cheesemaking.

1. Homogenization is totally a cosmetic thing just to prevent the milk 'creaming', i.e. the fats slowly climbing together and rising to the top of the container.
2. The fat globules are literately squeezed through microscopic holes under immense pressure and are destroyed.
3. The natural carotene, that which make the cream appear yellowish is destroyed as well during pasteurization and lost.
4. Because the fat globules are now so very much smaller they are not as easily captured by the curd formation process.
5. Homogenized milks in the supermarket are nearly always adulterated with milks from vastly different batches and you have no idea how it was treated before being added to the product.

While we can repair some of the damage done by pasteurization -up to a point- by adding Calcium Chloride there is nothing we as cheesemakers can do with restoring the fats.

On the adding less culture, I don't definitively know but, the pH required to protect the cheese or setup for other moulds to do their thing probably wont be reached the culture is your flavor producing component as well as your acid producers.

This is a large topic I would like to continue at a greater depth.
           
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Offline bansidhe

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Re: Raffine Challenge...
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2021, 03:41:48 AM »
You touched on the thing that confuses me with regard to the floc test and cutting time.  In the recipes I am using , they always say to achieve a clean break ..    For Brie, you wait until it's set !90 minutes), for this affine you wait until a clean break ~30 minutes, for
a mother cheese 45 minutes.  Now, I get that one multiplies the floc time by some multiplier that is determined by the cheese one wishes to make.  But why do these recipes always say when you get a clean break?  I mean I could have gotten a clean break at an hour for the brie I just made, but I know I had to wait for 90 minutes..  How useful is this idea of a clean break then?
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