Author Topic: New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients  (Read 10990 times)

Offline Aris

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Re: New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2023, 11:16:33 PM »
It looks good.

Offline Possum-Pie

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Re: New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2023, 01:00:28 PM »
Thanks. Seems like there isn't much activity on this forum lately. Lots of threads had their last postings a year or two ago. I would think that more "homesteaders" and such would be active. I'm grateful that there were a few members who could help me. I've gotten a few books on the subject but it's nice to hear from experienced cheesemakers about specific questions.

Offline Aris

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Re: New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2023, 01:49:22 PM »
Yeah. You should checkout cheesemaking subreddit which is more active. If you have facebook, there are cheesemaking groups there. I totally lost interest there because some people there can be vile and authoritarian.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cheesemaking/

Offline mikekchar

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Re: New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2023, 03:08:30 PM »
It used to be much more active here (mainly even before I showed up).  I hate to say it, but I think a big part of the problem is actually the homesteaders.  The original group here had a very high percentage of professional cheese makers.  The level of pre-existing knowledge was high and the resulting discourse level was high.  Even when you got newbies in the mix, the questions and answers were quite good.

However, there are few people interesting in the intricacies of cheese making.  One of the most knowledgeable posters, Linuxboy said that he'd never write a book because nobody would want to know the level of detail that he'd want to put into a book.   *The* book to get, is "Fundamentals of Cheese Science" by Fox, et al... which Amazon has at $250.  I seem to remember it being even more expensive back in the day.

Not to be unkind, but the average homesteader doesn't read books like that (disclosure: I can't bring myself to pay that much for a cheese making book... hypocracy writ large ;-) ).  Even Gianaclis Caldwell's book (arguably the best approachable book you can buy) *apologizes* multiple times for bringing science into the discussion.  Cheese making is *complex* and there is a lot of misunderstanding and stuff that is wrong out there that people cling to.  If I had a dollar for every time I've personally said stuff that is plain wrong and later realised it's because I'm unwittingly parroting "common knowledge", I'd be rich :-)

I probably shouldn't be so unkind, but a real problem in our community is that many people refuse to believe that making cheese could be deep, complicated and nuanced.  Quite a lot of those people happen to come from the homesteading community in my experience.  And I get it.  Homesteaders become homesteaders because they are searching for a simpler life where natural processes rule.  It makes sense!  And the thing is that it's actually pretty hard *not* to make cheese from milk if you aren't fussed about what kind of cheese you are making.  And it will even taste good 90% of the time too!  And the people intent on poisoning themselves are relatively rare and usually go away after they fail to make something that tastes good enough times.

But... If your goal is to get a *really* deep understanding of cheese making, all of the superficial view points and refusal to concentrate on details is taxing.  Eventually most serious enthusiasts are not up for the discussion any more and the wander away.  The people who are left have nothing interesting to say and so... it just kind of gets quiet.

Offline Aris

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Re: New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2023, 07:04:51 AM »
Mike,
I was here when it was really active back in 2009. I learned a lot from the experienced members especially pros like Linuxboy and Francois. I think you are on to something about homesteaders. I noticed that some of them aren't into details and are lax about safety. I think they also follow David Asher. I totally agree that cheesemaking is deep, complicated and nuanced. Those are the reasons I love cheesemaking and I still haven't lost interest after over a decade. You can never stop learning. It is a shame people don't appreciate the complexity and diversity of cheesemaking and tends to stick to only one method which is asinine. It gets even more interesting once you delve into making your own starter culture using raw milk. The possibilities are endless because natural starters are complex and variable. I've made a natural starter using the method from the Slow Food video on youtube which you are critical about and I don't blame you. At first generation, it was decent but it gets even better if you build it up multiple times by feeding it. Once you made cheese from it, you can also use the whey as starter culture which is basically natural whey starter. I used the natural whey starter in a Caciotta and it was one of the best cheese I've ever made. It was really buttery (Flora Danica can never come close) and has a subtle Pineapple note. Despite the high temperature in making the starter culture, mesophilic bacteria gets replenished by the use of raw milk and Caciotta is not heated above 100 f. Anyway, I hope you are doing good and I hope you start writing more in your blog.

Offline MacGruff

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Re: New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2023, 12:23:15 PM »
I've also been on here for a while and things seem to ebb and flow.

Another factor is that we seem to get a bunch of newbies on board (me included!) who all run into the same initial problems and therefore all ask the same initial questions. Now that I've been on for a while I see the cycle happening for the third, fourth, or more time. For those who are very deep into their cheese knowledge (like you Mike) it can get frustrating having to answer the same question so many times. I remember asking my newbie questions and being somewhat put off when one of the "old timers" told me - rather curtly! - "Use the Search function!".

 :)

So, the old timers stop answering and focus on their things, and most of the newcomers eventually fade away.

This seems to happen in every hobby. At least I've noticed it in almost all the hobbies I've gotten involved in over the years.

Offline mikekchar

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Re: New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2023, 12:45:42 PM »
I shouldn't be so grumpy, especially since people coming here are usually so excited about cheese making.  Better to invite them in the door rather than to say, "You aren't geeky enough!".  How will they *become* geeky enough?  >:D  In all honestly, it's great to seem people posting here and I'm very happy when there are threads like this to liven the place up.  I definitely need to start making some cheese too.  My excuse that it's too hot is rapidly running away from me!

Offline DrChile

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Re: New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2023, 08:38:20 PM »
Cheese looks great Possum.

Agree with the comments re this forum.  There is such a wealth of information here in past posts - so when I fell off the wagon (meaning not making cheese or posting on this forum) and then got back into it, I was so happy to see that all the information is still here.  I try to check in every other day or so but sometimes it's hard to come back just to browse unless you have a specific question.  I've started to make a point just to come back here to see in an effort to give back - cause this forum has slowed but hopefully it will keep going.  I could nerd out on the science of cheese for hours at at time but then my real job may suffer...

Agree with the reddit - just joined reddit for that purpose.  Haven't joined the facebook groups yet...
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Offline Possum-Pie

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Re: New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2023, 05:25:36 PM »
WOW, thank you for all of the insight. I hold a doctorate degree. My very soul screams "evidence-based practice" meaning I really don't care that someone's grandpa planted corn only by the full moon, but WHY, and what evidence is there for that? On one hand, They have been making wine, beer, and cheese for thousands of years. No instruments to calculate pH, and no precision, BUT, many times people got sick or the product failed. I try to balance precise scientific methods of making wine or cheese with some of the more "laid-back" approaches of people whose families have always done it a particular way. I've made wine by "winging it" and not getting precise measurements, but I've also had some failures. I aim to learn the science behind cheesemaking, and then decide which corners I choose to cut...
« Last Edit: October 13, 2023, 11:59:21 AM by Possum-Pie »

Offline mikekchar

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Re: New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2023, 11:35:02 AM »
Why cut corners?  Understanding the science basically just gives you a toolkit for reasoning using a model.  Science isn't reality.  Science is a practice of using and validating models that help you predict outcomes.

I don't use a pH meter.  A pH meter is very helpful, but it's also a gigantic pain to clean and keep calibrated (I've owned 3 in my life and given them away, because I'm too lazy :-) ).  However, the science of cheese making helps you deduce where you are with the pH.  Deciding not to use a pH meter is not about "winging it".  It's about making a choice to use *other markers* to understand acidity. Deciding not to use a pH meter is not a short cut.  It's just a choice -- and it's a choice that requires you to pay *more* attention to what you are doing, not less.

People hundreds of years ago did not understand acidity. There used to be an archive here of old cheese making books (100-200 years old).  Sadly, with the loss of the attached files, I think they are gone now.  However, it's not as much of a loss as you might imagine.  Those books were *terrible*.  The people writing them had no idea what they were doing.  They made bad cheese.  You may think, "But you never tasted it.  How do you know it's bad?"  You know because you understand the science and you know that the stuff in the books was completely bonkers :-)  To be fair, cheese making at the time was women's work.  Writing books about cheese making was men's work.  I got the impression the men writing the books had more ego than knowledge ;-)

I'm not saying that cheese 200 years ago was all terrible.  I'm absolutely sure it wasn't.  However, good complex cheese was rare, and the secrets were protected and handed down.  That's why there were famous producers of cheese.  They *also* did not know what they were doing, but through trial and error and luck, they made good cheese.  This isn't to say they cut corners!  I'm sure they were incredibly meticulous!  Probably they were meticulous to the point of absurdity (only turn the cheese quarter turn on a Tuesday, kind of craziness).  Science is about making *simple* models that can be reasoned with.  People often make *complex* models when they aren't trained in the scientific process.

Speaking of the history of cheese, we often think that very, very old cheese styles were the same then as they are now.  However, take Camembert cheese.  The white rind on Camembert wasn't standardised until *1970*!  Before that, it was common to have a mixed rind -- often grey, brown, speckled, etc.  Our imagination of cheese in times gone by are just that -- imagination.  One of my favourite cheeses is Caerphilly.  However, it's pretty clear that there isn't a person alive who knows what Caerphilly is supposed to taste like.  Caerphilly production was halted in WWII.  After that, it's really unclear if anyone *ever* made an authentic Caerphilly.  The cheese died out completely in the early 2000's, but was revived by a Cheddar cheese maker in Sommerset.  The current artisan form of Caerphilly (a Welsh cheese!) is based on the imagination of an English cheese maker.  (I mean, modern Caerphilly is *amazing*... who knows what Caerphilly 100 years ago was like).

This is all to say, don't cut corners :-)  There is no need.  Just build a good model and use it to reason about what you should do to produce the cheese you want.  If the cheese you want only requires a simple process, then go for it.  If it requires a complex process... then that's what you need.  Use the tools that you want to use and that allow you to produce the cheese you want.  Generally, more tools, used intelligently make it easier.  With less tools, you need more understanding, experience and practice.

Offline Possum-Pie

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Re: New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2023, 01:24:59 PM »
Update: 16 days out of brine, flipped every day. the rind is starting to form, small blue/green mold spots appear on the edge or surface. I brushed them off with a brine brush, and they don't look like a problem, but I want to vacuum pack within a week or so and want the surface as clean as possible. Today I made a solution of white vinegar and saltwater and brushed the whole cheese paying attention to the small mold spots. I'm air-drying it now.
I've seen "very" moldy cheese surfaces that were fine to eat, and I myself have been known to cut off large blue/green mold from a store-bought cheddar block and eat the rest. I just don't want to seal this and have the mold propagate to change the acidity/flavor...am I doing the correct thing?

Offline Aris

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Re: New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2023, 01:36:42 PM »
Yes. Although there are times mold will still grow on a vacuum packed cheese. I have a vacuum packed hard cheese now that has a few specks of blue mold. I am not worried about the mold because the cheese has a hard rind which the mold can never penetrate. Just make your cheese has a hard rind before you vacuum pack.

Offline Possum-Pie

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Re: New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2023, 03:13:35 PM »
Yes. Although there are times mold will still grow on a vacuum packed cheese. I have a vacuum packed hard cheese now that has a few specks of blue mold. I am not worried about the mold because the cheese has a hard rind which the mold can never penetrate. Just make your cheese has a hard rind before you vacuum pack.
It is dry, with no moisture upon pressing my finger on it, and I scrubbed with vinegar/brine and dried it first. I'm going ot vacuum seal it and keep an eye out for moisture in the bag.

Offline Aris

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Re: New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2023, 11:55:04 PM »
I assume it has a rind now. If your vacuum sealer has a soft setting, you can use that to prevent or minimize moisture from the cheese getting sucked out. My cheese below was very dry and had a yellowish hard rind when I vacuum packed it.

Offline DrChile

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Re: New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2023, 08:40:48 PM »
Quote
A pH meter is very helpful, but it's also a gigantic pain to clean and keep calibrated

Aint that the truth.  I use one because I choose to - but it can be a pain in the butt. 

I'm the medical field and use data and science every day I got to work.  I think that's why i like cheesemaking - it gives me some science and a little bit of control in a hobby that ultimately tastes good (most of the time).  On the other hand, the amount of variables for the home cheesemaker to attempt to control is fairly high and that can lead to some unexpected results - i enjoy that as well!

Trent
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