Cheddar flocculation terribly long

[iratherfly]

Alex, I have experienced the same issue with Tommes I made in January which had the exact same start recipe as your cheddar (expect 1-2 degrees warmer and used pasteurized non-homogenized milk which I suppelmened with CalCl). Someone later told me to double the rennet which solved it in the next few attempts though I haven't opened these newer attempts so I don't know how it affected it.  The result of the tommes was a bit too flaky/brittle and they had a crack in the center. Linuxboy says that this texture relates to an overly long of ripening. Perhaps it's better to use more rennet rather than ripening for too long?

[Alex]

Thanks Y, that's the way I'll act in the future.

[Sailor Con Queso]

The ripening time that LB refers to is BEFORE rennet. The starter bacteria become too aggressive with their acid production which ultimately leads to cracking and flaking. You do want your curd to set in a reasonable time so you can drain it to limit further acid production.

[iratherfly]

Makes sense Sailor, though doesn't it continue to acidify even after the addition of rennet? Or, does the acid buildup uccors faster in the whey than the curd so one should just focus on draining?
How would you get the curd to set if it doesn't do so under the recipe? Add more rennet the next time around? Is there a point beyond which the starter has acidified so much that it inhibits the rennet's effectiveness?

[Sailor Con Queso]

The bacteria continue to produce acid thru curd set, cooking, washing, cheddaring, pressing, and even beyond. There are a few key points during a make when you can take control and make a big difference in the outcome of the final cheese. The amount of starter bacteria and the length of time for ripening set the stage for the rest of the process. Too much or too long, and the bacteria will produce too much acid too quickly. (that's a lot of "too"s) :o. That will throw the timing off for the rest of your steps along the way. That's why you can't blindly follow the times in a recipe book. You may have to "cook" quicker or take other steps to get things under control. Another key point is certainly draining. That is when you remove a lot of the available food source and slow acid production way down.

Rennet requires a little acid to work but if the curd set takes a REALLY long time, the bacteria can start producing a lot of acid. There are lots of reasons for a curd not setting well so search the forum and you will find several great discussions.

[iratherfly]

That's good to know. At this point in the game I am developing a really good "feeling" for how to handle milk/curd to get what I want in forming cheese and already got a good process for feeling the production process for younger cheeses and lactic cheeses. This is training traditional artisanal style, no measuring of PH and such, like families all around the world used to do throughout history... (The magic of running out of buffer solutions :) )

As I do more hard and semi-soft, I must add to my "feeling repertoire" the sense of what's the right process and curd texture which will deliver certain textures months down the road. Boy this is fun. By the way, these days I take a log and do flocculation tests with spinning bowl to find out  the right ripening and multiplier.  I am currently trying to understand how to do soft moist small eyes curd for cheese like Morbier, any tips would be helpful!

[FRANCOIS]

Francois,

I can say that the milk I use is a milk with almost the same properties all over the year. Because all the milk produced in Israel, is transferred to the dairies strictly and only through the "Milk Council", all the cows are Holstein's, all the farmers feed them the same food and no grazing. Everything is "engineered" in a way that the milk properties will be affected as little as possible all over the year.

Pavel,

As I use store bought butter milk (containing Streptococcus Lactis, Streptococcus Diacetylactis, Streptococcus Cremoris), same brand all the time and I never let the milk ripening with the culture, I was wandering if it was correct to do that for the Cheddar.

Tell that to the cows.  They don't know they are supposed to be producign the same milk all year round and definately don't.  Total solids fluctuates through lactation as does solid content.

[Alex]

OK, I'll try to speak to the cows :-[, meanwhile I'll consider your information, thanks.

[iratherfly]

Actually, working with the milk in Israel before myself I can attest to its ridiculous sameness year round. Even when the cows are allowed to graze, the fona and flora changes so little in this year-round subtropical country that these is little change in their diets or behaviors.

[SANDQ]

Hey Alex, I'm having the opposite problem with my flocculation time for cheddar I was getting a set after 5 minutes!! I was using a recipe from a book and it is clear it is not correct! The book advices half a teaspoon to 4.5 L milk. Half a teaspoon is 50 drops! The advice on the bottle is 4-6 drops per L lets say 4 per L x 4.5 L equals 18 drops. I am of course making a stirred curd variety of cheddar. Can any one answer my question about multipliers? I have been informed that a set after 5 Min's is a 12x multiplier, and a set after 1 hour is a 1x multiplier. Therefore 1 multiplier is 5 minutes yes? So If I need a 3x multiplier for cheddar, and 50 drops is 12x,  does the maths work like this; 50 drops divided by 12 is 4.16 drops x3 ( for cheddar ) equals 12.48 drops to every 4.5 L milk?  Which is not far off the instruction on the bottle.I hear every body talking about PH levels this is clearly critical, again can any Enlighten me?
On the point about the sameness of Israeli milk, the only difference you may see is around Pesach ( passover ) when a month before and after passover ALL Israeli dairies switch from feeding wheat silage to feeding maize silage to abide by the strict food laws concerning leavened products. If one small piece of wheat would come in contact with the milk the whole days production would become Hametz  ( forbidden ) 
Alex have spoken to you on a more personal note on our other thread   Q

[DeejayDebi]

The recipe may have been correc for the rennet they used. You have to adjust recipes bsed on YOUR ingredients.  Rennet varies greatly from one type and brand to the next.

[padams]

you aren't kidding Debi.  I used my new rennet I ordered from Dairy Connection (vs. junket-style liquid from the health food store)  I used the 5 drops per quart from those instructions and got flocculation in less than 1 minute!!!  I sure hope my colby doesn't get bitter.  oh well.  live and learn!

[SANDQ]

Thanks for that guys,
So follow the instructions on the bottle and see how I go from there? So how do I accurately get to my 3x multiplier

[DeejayDebi]

Yes alway go by the manufactures instructions not a posted recipe unless it specifically mentions a measurement for brand name item and you are using the same brand.

[BigCheese]

Sorry to interject off subject, but that Mozz. stretching picture wowed me. Whats the secret? is it all in the ph? Previously I have had a few really good-stretching batches, and a number of failures. This forum is so addictive right now. I need to do other things...