Fresh Lactic Acid Coagulated Whey Removed Cheese General Discussion

[KosherBaker]

Fromage Blank in Hebrew is called Gvina Levana

Thank you for that. I'll be sure to give those a try next time I go. I find milk products taste really good in Israel.

Actually no, cheese isn't Hametz! Hametz ("soured") doesn't refer to fermented or acidified products

Well here's what got me going in the opposite direction. The process of acidification is the very same as the process of souring. No? And the process of fermentation includes the process of acidification. Isn't the name for vinegar in Hebrew Hometz?

and on Passover you would see that pickles, cheese, vinegar etc. are all Passover-kosher. .......
Cheese is sold in all Kosher supermarket in Israel during passover.

Yes of course, I'm intimately aware of this as someone who keeps a Kosher kitchen. However, Kosher certification is based on Rabbinical decrees, some of which are dated and may not be scientifically based. Granted I too may be misunderstanding the scientific aspects of souring and acidifying.

The soured concept comes from the biblical reference of the Israelites having to escape Egypt and in need of bread for the long journey but not having enough time to let the dough sour, -which makes it rise (AKA sourdough).

Well Technically speaking it is the Natural Yeast that makes the dough rise. I believe Candida milleri is the natural yeast strain. It is the Lactobacillus that makes the sourdough sour. Although you probably already know all this.

That was before the days of store bought Active Dry Yeast; bread was made by fermenting dough over time).

What do you mean was. I've been baking with my sourdough starter instead of commercial yeast for years. Even raised it myself. Not only does it produce a tastier bread, but it is actually healthier and makes the dough that is quite superior, more resilient and easier to handle to commercial yeast. Sorry I think the Baker side of me is breaking out.

Fromage Blanc on Matzoh is the first thing I eat after getting a package of matzoh home every year.

Yum, that sounds great. Since I often bake Matza for Shabbat I'm going to have to try that.

John if my ramblings are hopelessly Off Topic let me know and I'll convert this post into a PM.

[Alex]

Rudy,

Just to make it clear about "hametz cheese", it isn't due to the fermentation or acidification, but due to the cows feed containing ingredients complying with Yoav's story. Therefore, about a couple of month before Passover, the cows' food in Israel is addapted to be Kosher for Passover.

[iratherfly]

Ah, KosherBaker, you kill me! sorry for taking so long to respond. Was sick and then behind on work for being sick.

The Hebrew verbal rout H-M-TZ (חמצ) is the word "sour". That could be anything from calling the taste of lemon CHAMUTZ (sour) to saying vinegar (literally "sour-er") to CHAMETZ (literally "which can become sour") etc. It doesn't revolve around a single topic, food or ingredient.

I too actually bake more bread than I make cheese. I don't like the sour taste and would love to grow my own yeast but for now I do a lot of those 18 hour no-knead recipes that use no more than a pinch of yeast to start it up. I posted some of them on other threads here. Never made my own bread yeast though! Show me how! I want to make pizza dough this way. Recently I have been using my cheese whey as the liquid in the bread and with all that butterfat and cheese yeast in it - the breads come out phenomenal!!! (not to mention the minerals and vitamins, like riboflavin and Calcium).

GOOD NEWS EVERYONE - I found the Fromage Blanc cake recipes! I will translate and post them here shortly. One is baked type and the other is unbaked cake.  Alex, I am sure our dear wife has some cheesecake recipe that uses Fromage Blanc too.

By the way, looking into it, it seems to me that Quark is the German version of that very same cheese.

[KosherBaker]

Ah, KosherBaker, you kill me!

Sorry. I was afraid I may be opening up the proverbial can of worms, but for some reason went ahead and did it.

sorry for taking so long to respond. Was sick and then behind on work for being sick.

Tih'e Bari. Hope you're feeling better.

Never made my own bread yeast though! Show me how!

I would love to. For you it will be so easy you will laugh when you are done. Should I do it over PM or post it to a forum like "The Lounge" or "Other Artisan Crafts" or ..?

I want to make pizza dough this way.

It makes an amazing pizza dough. Very resilient and wonderful tasting.

Recently I have been using my cheese whey as the liquid in the bread and with all that butterfat and cheese yeast in it - the breads come out phenomenal!!! (not to mention the minerals and vitamins, like riboflavin and Calcium).

Agree 100%. The only thing is that it shortens the dough a little bit, so as long as that's OK, then this is a great way to go. Also, the acid in the whey acts as a dough conditioner.

[iratherfly]

Yes! Please post in the 'Lounge' or 'Other Artisan Crafts' and share with everyone.

The pizza inspiration - there used to be a guy here in the East Village that made his own naturally risen dough for his Pizzeria. It was one of the best in the city (brick coal oven, amazing, super high quality cheese and San Marzano tomato sauce). He was well loved by food critiques but was nicknamed "the Pizza Nazi" by the locals. Lots of temper and every day if the dough ended he just closed shop, no matter what time of the day it was or if someone was waiting for their pizza... It was an 18 hour dough so he couldn't make more in the middle of the day. At last he decided to move to the west coast last year. Haha, I don't think any non New Yorker can take this attitude...

I did not know the whey makes my loaf shorter and didn't see such difference - care you explain? It's full of sugar, proteins, butterfat and other goodies, I would think it feeds the yeast quite a feast. My breads are mostly no-knead type that are so hydrated and fermented for so long - you are actually baking a pre-ferment.

[MrsKK]

Yes, please include all of us in your directions for making your own yeast!  And thank you!

[iratherfly]

Okay, as promised, here are two easy basic recipes (out of many!) for Fromage Blanc cheesecakes. The first is no-baking and the second is no-dough. Easy easy easy.

No-Bake, Easy Fromage Blank Summer Cake

Ingrediants:
750g Fromage Blanc or Quark cheese
1 cup heavy cream
½ cup milk
1 cup sugar
1 package instant vanilla pudding
1 package (400g) Petit Buerre (simple French biscuits. You can also use lady fingers, ginger snaps etc)

Instructions:
Put all ingredients except the biscuits in a mixing bowl. Combine with a mixer for a few minutes until you get one stable creamy mixture.
Arrange a bottom layer of the biscuits in a cake pan. Pour half the mixture on top of It and flatten evenly with a spatula. Arrange another layer of biscuits and pour the remaining mixture on it.  You can now garnish with brittled chocolate or even put a layer of strawberries or some other berry or fruit sauce or confiture to your liking.  Chill in the refrigerator overnight or until firmer. eat!

Easy Basic No-Dough Fromage Blanc Cheesecake

Ingrediants:
750 g of Fromage Blanc or Quark cheese (use 9% full fat if you can find it)
7 eggs, separated
½ cup sugar
1 package instant vanilla pudding
2 tablespoons corn starch
½ teaspoon vanilla extract
Whipping cream and sugar for topping + any topping or garnish you want

Instructions:
Whip the egg whites with ½ cup sugar to a firm foam
Mix the yolks, Fromage Blanc, cornstarch, vanilla extract and 3 tablespoons of the instant vanilla pudding to an even mix. (I like to also add some lemon zest here, it really offsets the sweetness and makes it feel lighter)
Gently fold the whipped egg whites into the batter. Don’t over mix; it needs to be fluffy.
Butter or oil a 10” round spring form and transfer the cake into it
Place ban in another shallow pan with water. Bake at 275F for 75 to 90 min. Cool
Use the remaining instant pudding from the package with heavy whipping cream (and sugar to your liking) to make a whipped cream cake icing. Spread it on the cake. Serve.

I have several other ones if you want them!

[KosherBaker]

Yes, please include all of us in your directions for making your own yeast!  And thank you!

Yes! Please post in the 'Lounge' or 'Other Artisan Crafts' and share with everyone.

OK. This will be fun. Unless John corrects me and points me to a more appropriate forum I'm going to put it into the "Other Artisan Crafts" forum as it has Bread listed as one of the subtopics.

The pizza inspiration - there used to be a guy here in the East Village that made his own naturally risen dough for his Pizzeria. It was one of the best in the city (brick coal oven, amazing, super high quality cheese and San Marzano tomato sauce). He was well loved by food critiques but was nicknamed "the Pizza Nazi" by the locals. Lots of temper and every day if the dough ended he just closed shop, no matter what time of the day it was or if someone was waiting for their pizza... It was an 18 hour dough so he couldn't make more in the middle of the day. At last he decided to move to the west coast last year. Haha, I don't think any non New Yorker can take this attitude...

Ahhh the dilusions of grandeur. What a shame. I'm sad for him and his customers. Yeah here in Los Angeles this would not fly for even a day. No matter what he is serving.

I did not know the whey makes my loaf shorter .......

Doh! I'm so sorry. Me and my baking lingo. When a baker says that something shortens the dough it means that something is added to the dough that makes the Gluten strands "Shorter". This is actually how "Shortening" got its name. The fat molecules coat the ends of Gluten strands and prevent them from bonding together into longer strands. Longer strands make the dough firmer and give it a greater lift in the oven, as well as give the product a firm chewy mouth feel, so it is good for breads. Shorter Gluten strands are good for cakes as you don't want a chewy cake, this is why cakes usually have some form of fat added to them because fats always act as a shortening. This is what I meant about the whey. That it too acts as a shortening on your dough so you just need to be aware of that and its effect on your bread. I think I'll go ahead and discuss the rest of this in the other thread once it is created. As I feel guilty for taking the thread off topic.

[iratherfly]

Rudy, too often these threads turn into a different subject after a page or two. don't worry about it. Also don't worry about where you post. If you are way off category john will move it but generally you will be ok.

As for shortening the bread - I don't think there is *that* much butterfat in it to really make a difference. I think there is more fat in the bowl I coat in oil to rise the dough.  Is there a whey component that shortens it more than fat?

did you see the Fromage Blanc cake recipes I posted for you above?

[KosherBaker]

Is there a whey component that shortens it more than fat?

Yes there appears to be, however if you were to ask me what it is I couldn't tell you. Unfortunately there's real dearth of books on baking science even though it is a very deserving topic. Being one of the oldest fermentation disciplines in the world. I saw Shirley Corriher release Bakewise however, I haven't purchased it yet so don't know what's in it. Aside from that there's one other book being self published by the author. So most of my findings are observations from my experiments and tinkerings in the kitchen. I once tried to make a pasta from tomato sauce, basically blended up canned tomatoes. That also shortened the tough significantly to the point that it was difficult to roll out. Baking Soda is another ingredient that shortens the dough. Yeast on the other hand appears to have an opposite effect and actually assist the gluten development, as does the acid whether from Lemon or from Whey or ...
If I have time I'll try to put together a separate post on whatever little I know about the dough/bread chemistry. But at the moment I'm working hard on the sourdough post. I'm half way done.

did you see the Fromage Blanc cake recipes I posted for you above?

Yup, for me and mainelycheese. Looking forward to trying those. Thanks.

[iratherfly]

Awesome; can't wait. Just baked 8 fresh pitas for breakfast. Looks like we are stranded in snow tomorrow anyway. Good night!

[mainelycheese]

I finally got around to trying to make cheese with the lipase and rennet that was left out at room temp for 2 weeks, then returned to the fridge. Total failure on a 30 minute mozz. I ended up with very soft, very small, unstretchable curds.

Luckily I have fresh lipase and some stupid rennet tablets to get me by till I can get another order in.

Iratherfly, the Sous vide hack you posted looks awesome!

[iratherfly]

Thank you mainelycheese!

By the way, assuming this was liquid rennet and lipase powder, I assume your bad curd was the rennet. Lipase would just become weaker but lack of it won't affect your curd.  Could also be the milk if it's not the same milk you used on your previous successes. Don't know when was the last time you made Mozz, but it's very pH dependent and milk pH changes during the season so your acidity might have been slightly off.  Always use non-homogenized milk for Mozz for the best results. If it's pasteurized, always add some CalCl2 to get that firm curd.

[MrsKK]

don't toss our your rennet based on trying the 30 minute mozz, which is notorious for bad makes, mostly based on the type of milk used.

Give it another go with another small batch of cheese of another variety before you give up on it.

[linuxboy]

You can also test the rennet strength in a small batch of milk to see if it coagulates.