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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Grana (Grating Cheesee) => Topic started by: amiriliano on October 21, 2014, 02:43:35 PM

Title: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: amiriliano on October 21, 2014, 02:43:35 PM
Hi all-

This is a Grana Padano made with 1.5% non UP cow, made with Caldwell recipe. This was taken after 2 days of air drying. It has this yellow/ white mottled look and is cracking. I think I overcooked the curds by 1-2 hours while stirring.

Any other ideas?

Is there any way to seal these cracks at this point?

TIA!
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: ArnaudForestier on October 21, 2014, 03:03:17 PM
The cracking I'd venture is because your drying room was too low in humidity.  I try to maintain 70-75% during any drying.  What was your RH?  As to healing the crack, a bit tough now that the wheel has hardened up.  You might try oil or wax, to prevent air entry as much as possible. 

You overcooked by 1-2 hours?  How long did you cook the cheese?  Did you use a sample and test, with your hands or a sieve, something to get a feel of the curds?

The yellow and white mottling, I get this as well.  It settles out.   
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: amiriliano on October 21, 2014, 04:15:00 PM
OK yeah - it is drying in my kitchen which is closer to 60% RH. With the wax - do you mean I should drip wax into the cracks?

So I mistimed the cook day and got stuck doing something more urgent which left the cut curds in the vat way too long. They were tiny curds (correct for grana) but very very dry and crumbly.
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: ArnaudForestier on October 21, 2014, 04:56:04 PM
OK yeah - it is drying in my kitchen which is closer to 60% RH. With the wax - do you mean I should drip wax into the cracks?

That's what I would do, that or oil - anything to prevent air from getting to the inside of the wheel.  Blue mold attack

So I mistimed the cook day and got stuck doing something more urgent which left the cut curds in the vat way too long. They were tiny curds (correct for grana) but very very dry and crumbly.

Ah.  Bummer.  Well, age it out and see what you come up with, I'd say.  Though with that much moisture loss, I'm not sure how you're acid curve went.  Did you check pH or acidity during the press and after?
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: amiriliano on October 21, 2014, 05:47:27 PM
No. Honestly, I didn't want to know because I'm sure I went way past the goal. Guess we shall see what this comes out like. New kind of Grana variety?
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on October 21, 2014, 05:53:27 PM
The mottled look is from uneven drying with the lighter color still being too moist. Yes, this is in part because of the low humidity in your drying area, but that is exacerbated by the overcooked curds. If you didn't stir frequently enough, there will be uneven moisture gradients throughout the cheese. The cracks formed because of the dry curds and under-pressing. You can NOT wax, oil, or vac bag until the moisture evens out some more, but I would drizzle vinegar with a little salt into the cracks to ward off molds. Did you brine or direct salt this cheese?
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: amiriliano on October 21, 2014, 06:00:55 PM
I brined for 18 hours in saturated brine per recipe
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: ArnaudForestier on October 21, 2014, 06:24:37 PM
To clarify, I'm not talking about treating the entire wheel - merely the cracks.  And here, I'm going to have to disagree with Sailor.  Some recommend salted or unsalted butter, some oil or wax, even lard. 

On taking another look at your cheese, I agree with Sailor that the mottling is due to uneven cook, somehow - some curds have experienced greater syneresis than others, usually due to uneven cutting, or hot spots - which can happen with not stirring enough.  The mottling is actually causing physical ridges and valleys, which I didn't pay enough attention to on my first look.  The mottling I'm talking about is an even, fully knit surface, but some patches of white and more yellow coloration may show up.  I don't usually see this out of the press, but will see it at times after 24 hours rest in the cellar, before brining. 

(http://formaggiokitchen.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/a-metal-form-for-parmigiano-reggiano.jpg)

Something like this - hard to tell, but you can see a yellow/white gradient in places on the Parmesan wheel.

Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: amiriliano on October 22, 2014, 02:29:06 AM
Wow. OK. Well thank you both for your valuable input. I ended up using a fine non-iodized salt (canning salt) to fill in all the cracks. It seems to have worked nicely. Put it in the cave tonight and I'll check to see if the salt needs to be re-inserted.
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: ArnaudForestier on October 23, 2014, 09:00:09 PM
Good luck, amiriliano  :)
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: John@PC on October 24, 2014, 11:34:59 AM
You can NOT wax, oil, or vac bag until the moisture evens out some more, but I would drizzle vinegar with a little salt into the cracks to ward off molds. Did you brine or direct salt this cheese?
Just a small disagreement with this Sailor but it does come from personal experience (meager as it is compared to yours): Anytime I have cracks form in my pressed cheese while in the cave I coat it with coconut oil (non-virgin), cracks and all.  I don't know what the moisture transmission rate of coconut oil is but I would think that because of the thinness of the coating it still should allow moisture to even out.  At least it does for me as my coconut oiled cheeses seem to be the best aging and lowest maintenance cheeses, maybe with the exception of those with the "Alps schmeir" ;).  Also if you're putting dry salt in there amiriliano you will prevent mold but it may make the paste desiccate and open the cracks more so you want to keep an eye on it.  Good luck as well.
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: ArnaudForestier on October 24, 2014, 12:31:00 PM
Also if you're putting dry salt in there amiriliano you will prevent mold but it may make the paste desiccate and open the cracks more so you want to keep an eye on it.  Good luck as well.

That was my concern as well, John.  Will be interesting to see.  Amiriliano, please keep us posted, will you?
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on October 24, 2014, 01:23:01 PM
I don't use coconut oil, but it does breathe so I'm sure that would work. Note that I suggested using a salty vinegar solution, NOT pure salt. I personally would have just used Natamax to prevent molding, but most hobbyists don't have that available. It also is worth dipping the wheel in really hot water and then repressing to try and seal the cracks.
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: John@PC on October 24, 2014, 02:57:58 PM
Note that I suggested using a salty vinegar solution, NOT pure salt. I personally would have just used Natamax to prevent molding, but most hobbyists don't have that available. It also is worth dipping the wheel in really hot water and then repressing to try and seal the cracks.
I did see it was a solution and although I haven't tried it I will next time to deal with any mold that may have gotten into the crack.  Is Natamax the same thing as Paracoat?  I think they both have natamycin for the mold protection?
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on October 26, 2014, 05:28:38 PM
Natamax is a trade name for natamycin based mold inhibitor. Some Paracote contains Natamax, some doesn't. Check with your supplier.
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: Spoons on October 26, 2014, 05:51:05 PM
As Sailor mentionned, Natamax is not really for hobbyists, it's quite expensive, but Danlac sells it:

http://www.danlac.com/ingredient/natamax-100-gr-natural-antimicrobial-price-lowered (http://www.danlac.com/ingredient/natamax-100-gr-natural-antimicrobial-price-lowered)
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: amiriliano on October 27, 2014, 05:43:17 PM
I will - I'll take some pics this week and upload. Looks like the rind is getting a more even texture.

Thank you all again.
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on October 27, 2014, 08:59:46 PM
IMHO when you have a mottled surface like that, there is still moisture gradients in the cheese. If you wax or vac bag while this condition exists, you will trap whey/moisture inside. That will lead to moisture under the wax or moisture in the bag, and a sour tasting cheese. Try to age it naturally (with proper humidity) until that excess moisture is gone.
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: amiriliano on October 28, 2014, 02:34:30 PM
Yep. I agree. I'm letting it go. Either I'll have a grana or I've just invented something new!
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: amiriliano on November 12, 2014, 02:19:28 PM
So here's an update. Maybe the pic isn't as great as it should be but:

1) The mottling was gone within 3-4 days of aging (55F 85%RH).
2) There is blue mold in the cracks which seems superficial but likely will penetrate
3) The rind otherwise is solid and feels like a Grana rind should (I think)

I've been scrubbing with saturated saline weekly

Any further thoughts/ suggestions?
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: ArnaudForestier on November 12, 2014, 10:00:18 PM
Thanks for the update, Amiriliano.  I know it's not what you wanted but I'd love to hear how this ends up.  Might be one of those "happy little accidents" ?
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: amiriliano on November 14, 2014, 01:51:38 AM
Thanks. We'll see. "Grana Padablue"?
Title: Re: Opinions on why this cheese looks like this
Post by: ArnaudForestier on November 14, 2014, 03:12:53 AM
Hahaah, sounds perfect!