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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Washed Rind & Smear Ripened => Topic started by: Hande on May 27, 2011, 03:42:12 PM
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Hello,
That's my second Reblochon what is really failure.
There is not right rind and texture is dry and crumply.
Maeby my washing technique is wrong ?
I just dip cloth in light brine and carefully 'moist' every sides of cheese. I do that 3 times of week and there is good humidity in box.
Every time there start growing other molds, but not linens A), huh. Linens are only in those holes side of cheese.
I wonder if my linens is off, but when I make brine solution with linens, there is a just right aroma.
Hande
(http://)After 5 weeks take care >:D
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Hande,
May I ask if you add something else than B.linens to your brine? Geo? KL71?
- Helen
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Helen, no only linens. I just follow '200 easy homemade cheese recipe' .
It's not call linens in brine, but that second trial I but pinch of it at first 2 washing brine to hope get better result.
Maeby next time I but some: http://www.hjemmeproduktion.dk/shop/se/jastkultur-209p.html (http://www.hjemmeproduktion.dk/shop/se/jastkultur-209p.html) what I have now in freezer.
It allows to grow better linens.
Your's Munster looks so good !! huh huh :P
Hande
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I just buy Camembert style cheese with linens and it's really good :D .
It's maybe good to add pinch of candidum what start breakdown to proteins and get nice texture ?
Hande
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How did your first Reblochon turned out?
First of, it looks like it's suffering from yeast contamination. Was this next to bread baking, dough, bread crumbs or yeast?
Secondly, how long have you been washing it for before taking this photo? How old is this cheese?
Did you follow the recipe accurately when it comes to acidification/flocculation schedules and amounts of culture, rennet and calcium? It is significant not to wait too long or too short, to keep an accurate temperature control and not to put too much or too little cultures/rennet/calcium.
The culture you suggested will indeed help you. It neutralizes the surface of the cheese and enable the B.Linen to develop stronger and quicker. It also adds aroma to the cheese.
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Hello Yoav
My first turned out also hard and crumbly.
I always try to be carefully with yeast but who knows.
That cheese in pix was 5 weeks old with 2-3 times washing at week.
Yes I follow recipe schedules.
Maeby I try it again and use raw milk and with that 'jästculture', I don't give up :(
btw: I just was in Veneto region in Italy and get so good Talleggio and Asiago, huh huh. Talleggio was smooth and full of flawor, rind was quite 'shy' color but there was still wonderful aroma.
Talleggio was just like boofers pix: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,6497.0.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,6497.0.html)
I eat so much cheese there at one week, huh..
Hande
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Hande,
What are your cheese dimensions? Reblochon is larger than higher, in my books at least, which does not seem the case in your picture.
It may impact how your cheese is aging.
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Oh yes, Tallegio should have a pinkish, grayish rather pale rind that is very thin, not like most other washed rinds. Such nice cheese, one of my favorites! I have designed a few cheeses that were based on the Tallegio technique but had a different culture makeup altogether. Got some really great ones out of it.
For the Reblochon... let's figure this out. I think that the recipe in 200 easy cheeses is a bit simplified. It's not inaccurate but the details are missing. Here are some tips:
- You need to add thermophilic culture for texture and stabilization. Add cheese yeast to help
- The milk needs lots of acid prior to renneting so about an hour should do it. After renneting you should flocculate no more than 4x. If you are not familiar with this concept let me know and I will explain the spinning bowl method (well-documented on this message board). This is the most significant part to achieving the right texture of the cheese so try being as accurate as you can. Too much or too little acid with fail the cheese
- Milk should be 91F. If you can't get raw milk, add Calcium Chloride to your milk
- If you are using raw milk recipe, you should double up on cultures for pasteurized milk
- Curd should be cut roughly, stirred and left alone for 5 minutes. Then it should be cut again to smaller size
- The cheese needs to be packed into the mold and tightened by hand (rather than leave to drain). It should then immediately (no more than 5 min) be turned. The rest of the time in the mold it should be lightly pressed. Cheese press is too much. Use another cheese to stack them together or a very light weight equal to the weight of the cheese itself or even less
- The desired form factor is a disc shape. If you make it too tall then the surface flora will fail to ripen the entire cheese in a reasonable amount of time and the cheese would not have the same texture
- You should salt them with about 2% salt, not 3% as many other cheeses do
- You should begin the wash regiment when the cheese is no less than 100 hours
- Your wash should not contain B.Linens - just salt water (3% salt in the water is perfect). You can add to the water some cheese yeasts
- Wash with hard sponge or dunk in morge and brush, or wash with cotton cloths. The idea is that you need to be a bit vigorous and abrasive in the beginning to create that nice thick rind that will be a good base for flora growth and thick enough to trap moisture in
- Age at 55F (12C) and in 85%-90% humidity, turn daily in the first week and then every couple of days
- The B.Linen need lots of air to grow. If your cheese cave doesn't allow air and you are aging in a container to keep moisture in, try airing the cheese for 30 minutes every day - after you begin the wash regiment
- The wash regiment should be: No wash for the first 5-7 days. Then wash once every 2 days for 7 days. The next 10 days, wash once every 3 days. Then, wash once a week until you see good orange color. (stop before the color is perfect, it will continue to intensify after you stop washing). Stop the wash and let the geo re-grow and slightly cover the orange in white dusting until the cheese is ready
- Do not expose to bread, flour, bread crumbs or keep in the same room where you are baking or raising dough. Do not handle with hands that have not been washed after cooking or eating (it's a good idea to always handle with washed hands anyway). This will prevent that blue contamination you have going
- Be vigilant! If you see that the box is too humid and dripping on the cheese, open the lid of the box more and wipe the box dry. If you see that the cheese is drying, cover the cheese more and maybe even add a paper towel that will be soaked in your morge but not touching the cheese. Etc. Take control of the process, don't let the process control you....
What type of yeast problems are you having? Cheese yeast is being used just like any other culture. Typically an amount equal to 1/8 teaspoon per each 1-2 gallons (4-8 liters) will work.
Which starter cultures are you using?
What type of Geo and B.Linen are you using?
What kind of milk are you using? If you are already doing most of the things in these tips and are still having failures, you may have issues with the milk such as antibiotics or pasteurization temperature issues.
Let's try to fix this cheese. There are a few members here who have done some really nice Reblochons.
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Helen, dimensions was about 4,5" wide and 2" high, yes they came out too high.
Yoav, thank you. You give so much good tips :)
I use mesophilic from: http://home.btconnect.com/gnltd/shop/CheeseStarterCulture.htm (http://home.btconnect.com/gnltd/shop/CheeseStarterCulture.htm)
B.linens from: http://www.hjemmeproduktion.dk/shop/se/rotkitkultur-190p.html (http://www.hjemmeproduktion.dk/shop/se/rotkitkultur-190p.html)
thermophilic: http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/p/139-Thermophilic-DS-5-packets.html (http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/p/139-Thermophilic-DS-5-packets.html)
That raw milk what I get is good quality. It comes from 'farm college'. But sometimes I use store bought milk, not ultra.
Wash with hard sponge or dunk in morge and brush, or wash with cotton cloths. The idea is that you need to be a bit vigorous and abrasive in the beginning to create that nice thick rind that will be a good base for flora growth and thick enough to trap moisture in
Yes I think that I do it too carefully, moisture run out and not good base for linens.
I try new batch with your suggestion. Thermophilic, longer culture ripening time before rennet..
Should I use only thermophilic, not meso at all ?
Hande
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Yes, so try making them shorter, 1.5" tall if you can. Washing and affinage takes some practice. How hard you should wash and how moist should you leave it after a wash -these are just a matter of practicing this.
I am sorry if I confused you - NO, this is a mesophilic type cheese. You add one type of thermophilic to stabilize it (giving it longer shelf like once it is fully aged).
Your cultures are a bit off for this cheese. The starter looks like some version of Flora Danica and I think it is too "buttery" for this cheese. Choose something more traditional such as Danisco Choozit MM100 as a mesophilic.
For the thermophilic - it looks like you are using a mystery culture that is a version of Thermo C or something of that sort - it's way too many thermophilics in this mixture. This isn't a thermophilic cheese. You are only suppose to add a little thermophilic to your mesophilic for stability and texture. Use TA50 or TA60 for that.
The B. Linens you are using - they may be OK but there is no way of knowing what it is and how strong it is.
My suggestion will be to buy name brand cultures that you know exactly what they are, what's in them, how they were made and packed and what's their expiration date. The re-packed products (such as the items you get at cheesemaking.com and the Hjemme Produktion) and off-brands like 'Goat Nutrition Limited' - I just can't attest to the type of strain, the strength, packing conditions, quality and production standards.
Danisco Choozit, Abiasa Rosell and CHR-Hansen are very popular brands because they are easy to work with, standarized to have the right strength and have very high quality. They are also well documented.
Also, when you buy from these known brands you have a great selection of different cultures for each type, so you can decide how red or stinky your B.Linen should be, how fast and high your PC would be, how blue or green your P.Roqueforti would be and how buttery, nutty, sharp or how much eye formation will your cheese have - by choosing the right starter culture.
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Yes, I should go to shopping better cultures.
Here Europe is difficult to buy those brands.
Course is possible to buy it from USA, little problem is delivery times and charge. And ordering 'food' products outside Eu can get some problem.
That Danisco Choozit MM100 http://home.btconnect.com/gnltd/shop/DVI.htm (http://home.btconnect.com/gnltd/shop/DVI.htm) I have.
And uncorked choozit SR3LYO2D b.linens I have too.
Next reblochon I use those cultures.
Yes is important to use right culture to specified cheese, live and learn..
Hande
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These are all European companies! Where in Europe are you? I bet I can find a dealer near you.
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Yoav, I llive in Finland.
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MY 1000th POST!
Sorry for the late response, had a busy week.
Out of all of Finland's Danisco outfits, this one is the one that also sells their cultures (even though it's called Danisco Sweeteners). It's in Kantvik, Kirkkonummi, just 35km out of Helsinki:
Danisco Sweeteners Oy, Sokeritehtaantie 20, FI-02460 Kantvik, FINLAND. Phone: +358 10 431 030 or +358 10 431 020
Sokeritehtaantie 20,FI-02460 Kantvik,FINLAND@60.090162,24.38289 - Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&t=m&z=16&q=Sokeritehtaantie%2020%2CFI-02460%20Kantvik%2CFINLAND@60.090162,24.38289)
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Yoav, wow you are great detective,
I call them tomorrow and ask if they sell consumer customer.
Thank you.
Hande
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You are welcome. If they don't sell to retail customers you can always ask them who does (because they would be the distributor for the company that sells to consumers)
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Ok, updates my Reblochon adventure.
Thanks Yoav's tips, I make new batch Reblochon 4 weeks ago.
Now I cut first wheel and jesss, it's has very good taste ;) Definitely my best tasting cheese so far.
I use raw milk with SR3, MM100 and d.hansenii ( because that ones I have now ).
Maeby that b.linens what I use before was off, who knows..
Hande
(http://)
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This looks spectacular! Amazing! You can get the paté even softer. Next time, age it 45-60 days with the same recipe, Stop the wash regiment at the same point you did on this make and from then until the end just turn the cheese every couple of days while letting wild powdery random geo cover the red cheese.
Really, what a great looking cheese!
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Hi Yoav,
Thank for yours great tips, cheese for you :)
I have 3 more wheels of that batch, my plan is aged those more and make notes every one.
Yes now there is some geo get up.
Not luck that Finland Danisco, they not sell retail customers.
But now I found http://www.orchard-dairy.co.uk (http://www.orchard-dairy.co.uk) in Uk and there is what I want :)
I already make my order and I get it next week.
I really want make some complex rind Tomme.
Hande
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This is great. Keep me posted on the Tomme and send photos! What kind of milk will you be using?
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Now I use only raw cow milk. That summer time milk is amazing !
It's yellow and full of taste.
That farm is 2.4 miles away my home, so it's really local.
(http://)
Hande
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Wow, you can probably kidnap one of these cows for a day, milk it and return it and no one will notice O0
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Ok, updates my b.linens adventure.
My reblochon seems good now, and taste is just great, heh, even though I myself said that ;)
Reblochon 7 weeks:
I make 6 weeks ago some Camembert with linens, I use pinch of thermo to stabilized.
I think linens give extra booth of cam : )
2 pic below is cams, I'm little lost how to get pic right place ???
Hande
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Those look pretty darn good to me!
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Beautiful!
I can see I've got some work to do. You've inspired me.
That's what I was looking for in my Reblochon make.
-Boofer-
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Thank you,
Now I feel that linens are my friend :D ( after couple failure with linens.. )
Hande
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Hande,
They look magnificent!
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I could eat my screen! Those are wonderful looking.
- Jeff
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Okay, that's it, obviously it's time for me to foray into reblochon - Hande, Boofer, it's all your fault, your recent pics look so yummy!!! (What a nice thing to be blamed for, huh?) ;D
So is the recipe in 200 Easy Cheeses a good one, or should I tweak it a bit in any way?
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Thank you,
MaryJ, iratherfly give some great tip in that thread earlier.
200 Easy Cheeses not call any geo and to me d.hansenii helps a pit to grow linens.
KL71 is maybe better choice but I don't have any.
And little thermo (TA) gives texture and stabilization.
Hande
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I have to agree, these pics make me want to try the linens. Congrats on a magnificent looking cheese.
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Sorry, haven't been on in a few weeks. This looks amazing. Are you making any more?
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Thank you Tea and Yoav :)
Next time I try to make Epoisses and Taleggio.
Hande
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Ok, updates my b.linens adventure.
My reblochon seems good now, and taste is just great, heh, even though I myself said that ;)
Reblochon 7 weeks:
I make 6 weeks ago some Camembert with linens, I use pinch of thermo to stabilized.
I think linens give extra booth of cam : )
2 pic below is cams, I'm little lost how to get pic right place ???
Hande
Hande, I know I'm late to the thread, just wanted to say how much of a pleasure it's been watching your process and evolution, here. I'm done with hard cheeses for the year, will only be doing rebs, vacherin, epoisses and others soft cheeses with autumn milk. Very beautiful cheeses, congratulations and cheese to you.
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Paul, what have you been up to? I still awe you that post with all the experimentals. I have 36 different experimentals going. Totally crazy.
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Hi Yoav -
I've come to grips with some challenges, that have brought some life changes; all good and right. No longer on the road to doing this commercially, purely for pleasure for friends and family. Sounds like you're having fun, as always. :)
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Haha, I on the other hand have decided to launch a micro dairy in the middle of New York City... Looking for space in Manhattan now! Will raise funds soon online. This will be a lot of fun.
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Haha, I on the other hand have decided to launch a micro dairy in the middle of New York City... Looking for space in Manhattan now! Will raise funds soon online. This will be a lot of fun.
Shhhhh....we keep this up, the community will know we're just messing with them, Yoav. ;D
That's wonderful news! Congratulations on your plans, and all the best wishes for your success!
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OK, that my last one of that Reblochon batch.
I vac last one and I wonder how it affect in taste.
Don't worry,if possible it get more better flavor :) I love that one !.... but my wife is still no one :)
Hande
(http://)