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Given an earlier discussion on lactic curds (my failed early try):

Quote from: linuxboy on December 13, 2010, 02:16:08 PM

Quote from: ArnaudForestierthough still puzzled as to why the lactic acid development alone didn't eventually firm it up.

The rheology of lactic curd is determined by several dozen factors. The key ones are culture selection and milk structure. In terms of the culture, for a firmer curd, select cultures that have strains of bacteria that can form chains and whose polysaccharide structures on the cell membrane strengthen the lactic gel to give it higher firmness.

In terms of the milk, a higher casein fraction will result in a better set, as will caseins with adsorbed proteins (such as what happens during homogenization).

The rheology of semi-lactic curd (some rennet added) is similar, but with the introduction of rennet, you change the curd properties to aggregate differently. It becomes more jello-like is one way to look at it in terms of texture. And with that firmer set, the final drain curd can be better controlled by changing the acidity at which you add rennet, drain, and also by rennet amount.

To answer your question more directly, your culture selection makes for cultured buttermilk when added to milk. It behaved exactly as expected and made a thin lactic curd (summer milk does tend to be better, though). If you want a firm lactic-only curd, the culture needs to be different, and be something like Flora Danica. Acid alone will precipitate the proteins, but does not make for a thick set unless you have a high pecentage of caseins (4%+).

Timely, for me, if not for the thread, so I hope it's OK to bump the topic.  Plan to stock the cave with other, more quickly-aged cheeses beside my tomme, as I'm horribly impatient.  And though I want to concentrate on one cheese - the tomme - to perfect technique, epoisse is a fave and I'd love to do it. 

Linux, for public benefit, if you could provide any guidelines on achieving a firmer set with a strictly lactic acid culture, it would be appreciated.  You mentioned the rheology of lactic curd - I don't have the casein fraction of the milk I use (for now); regardless, would you recommend FD for an epoisse?  Any others, particularly?  Is the 4% fraction a necessary threshold for a pure lactic curd, whatever culture is used?

Also, Oude Kaas mentions a need for b. linens for fresh air, something difficult to achieve in a converted refrigerator.  This, too, a more or less limiting factor for a successful epoisse?

Finally, presuming the above can be greenlit with a current setup, would you recommend any particular length or drying protocol (I understand epoisse is particularly prone to "slip skin" effect) (I like "peau de crapaud" better.  Try selling "poussin crapaudine" to dining clients  ;D).

Quoteregardless, would you recommend FD for an epoisse?  Any others, particularly?  Is the 4% fraction a necessary threshold for a pure lactic curd, whatever culture is used?

FD is a decent choice, yes. You need Leuconostoc, likely even more than FD has. IIRC FD is something like 10-15% Leuconostoc in the blend.

No, the 4% threshold is something that helps to make for a really great lactic curd when your bacterial mix has suboptimal polysaccharide structures on the outside of its cell walls. All that proteins sets up thick even without the bacterial help with the texture.

QuoteThis, too, a more or less limiting factor for a successful epoisse?

Yes, you need to have huge oxygen availability and saturated air (98%) to get it right. Very tough to do in a fridge.

Quoteparticular length or drying protocol

straight lactic curd, so you need to drain and drain and drain. Pack curd into molds, leave for 4 days, RH 70-75%, flipping every 12 hours after initially flipping every 2-3 hours to make sure there's good drainage. After 4 days the curd should set up, remove, salt, and move to racks. Racks should be in classic 70% RH, 50-52F. Takes a day or two to dry.

QuoteI understand epoisse is particularly prone to "slip skin" effect

Point a fan toward the wheels if they're not drying enough.

QuoteTry selling "poussin crapaudine" to dining clients

True story. One time I had early slip skin on a cheese, so I took it off, pureed it, made it into a wild mushroom sauce and served it. "Poussine aux champignons rustiques. " :) was good, actually.

Perfect, thanks, Linux.  Will have to wait until I copy Willi's cave. ;)

That said, given the intended b. linens in an upcoming tomme, can you offer implications there?   Is the relatively greater chance of success in the tomme due to a relatively lower O2 need of the complex culture (a lower b. linens biomass and consequently, lower demand?)?

QuoteTrue story. One time I had early slip skin on a cheese, so I took it off, pureed it, made it into a wild mushroom sauce and served it. "Poussine aux champignons rustiques. " :) was good, actually.

Yeah, but you didn't call it "poussin crapaudine aux champignons, à la grand-mère," did you? ;D

Sounds wonderful. :) 

Eh, it can be done in a fridge, but tricky. Thing is, when you salt the surface, it draws the liquid out. And if that liquid is not gone, if the surface is not prepped before you start to wash, then the slip skin happens. The humidity constancy and air movement are to achieve an even, uniform ripening. Related to slip skin, but distinct.

Sorry, I'm wondering that if the issue is poor b. linens development in an epoisse due to high O2 demand and poor air exchange in a fridge, what is it that allows something like a tomme to do better, also using linens?  Does it have something to do with a relatively lower % of linens, typically, in the complex culture "mix?"

yep, exactly. epoisses is predominantly b linens. tommes might have 30%. You actually want the lower RH for the tomme because otherwise the b linens will take over. To get that complex, mottled kind of rind, you have to stress all the flora and let them fight it out on the surface. None will be dominant, and eventually the food runs out and they die. That's the point, to get them to grow slowly and impart flavor slowly, and then form a biocrust on the rind. I don't think that's an actual word, but you know what I mean. It's not a biofilm exactly.

Great.  Perfect, as always.  Thanks again, Linux.

Hi Arnaud,

I was wondering if you finally attempted to make an epoisses and if you did, if you could share your experience with the rest of us.

Epoisses is definitely one of my favorites (especially when you have to eat it with a spoon) and I would love to learn more about the make process.

Thanks!

- Helen

Helen, I'm sorry, no, I haven't yet.  I am concentrating exclusively on alpine styles, and of those, almost entirely on a serious effort to perfect Beaufort.  That said, I have made 2 batches of reblochon recently (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,6882.0.html), and am really pleased to see such an early wash of linens taking place, my first experience with this.  Pav is right - amazing what can happen under the right surface conditions, and right humidity (in my cave, 95%). 

I, too, love epoisses, and as a chef, it's pretty close to my heart (a lot of my style finds itself in Burgundian cooking).  Now that I have ventured into making sticky, stinky cheeses, I am pretty keyed to keep going, so will, I'm sure take a crack at epoisses down the road.  Mont D'or will probably come first!

I remember having dinner in Dijon and ordering a steak bathed in epoisses sauce... so yummy (and stinky :p)

I think I am going to take a stab at Epoisses this weekend. I don't own a phmeter, so the goal for me will be to understand the process and how things work - it will be a small batch. When my phmeter comes in next week, I will try again more scientifically.

Looking forward to hearing how it comes out, Helen.  Now that I have an aging container, I very well might take the leap myself.  We are a seriously stinky family... ;D

Helen or Arnaud, could one of you direct me to a recipe for Epoisse? It's been on my list for a while, and this thread reminded me.
Thanks,
Pam

Pam, I'm sorry, I don't have one, was going to try to come up with one after looking again at some books (French Cheeses, Cheese Primer, etc).  I seem to recall Oude Kaas made a really wonderful epoisses (haven't looked - is it on this thread?); he might have a good thought or two.  Good luck!

Paul

Hi Pam!

I gave it a try yesterday and used the recipe mentioned on that blog:
http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/search/label/Epoisses (http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/search/label/Epoisses)

It took me more than one hour to hit the first ph mark but otherwise, everything went well. They are now draining.

Paul (sorry for confusing your nickname for your name in prior posts),

I look forward to your interpretation of the cheese. Stinky is good :) The stinkier the better actually.

Thanks, Helen. I'll give it a try. I'm afraid we're into serious stink here also!

No worries - no rhyme nor reason to my username - Arnaud's a pal from Paris, and "forestier," as I love mushrooms....probably should have just made my name my username...!

Anyway, I've decided to stay Alpine, until I feel really strong in process variables.  If stinky, and I do love stinky as well, I think it's the relatively mild funk of reblochon, then Le Mont D'Or.  That will probably change when I see the success of yourself and others with this fave's of Napoleon, of course... ;D

Helen,

How is your Epoisses doing?

ak

This is directed to Linuxboy.  He has already been an incredible help in making me
understand just a few of the fundamentals.  A great instructor.

Now, Pav, you mention using Leuconostoc in Epoisses, could you expand on that?
I have several rather different epoisses types going now but neither of them has
the Leuconostoc in it.....Could you please give us a general 'shopping list' of ingredients
for our beloved stinky?

ak

Quote
Now, Pav, you mention using Leuconostoc in Epoisses, could you expand on that?
I have several rather different epoisses types going now but neither of them has
the Leuconostoc in it.....Could you please give us a general 'shopping list' of ingredients
for our beloved stinky?

The real deal, the raw milk Epoisses in France is characterized by the following LAB bacteria:
- Lactococcus lactis
- Leuconostoc mesenteroides
- Lactobacillus plantarum

I'm talking about the cheese, not the smear for the cheese. The way that bacterial succession plays out is that you use primarily L lactis for acidification, and Leuconostoc plays more of a role in contributing to body and flavor formation. The Lactobacillus grows during maturation and multiplies, contributing to flavor, and becoming about on par in number with Lactococcus.

You have picked an extremely difficult cheese. Its production, if you want to imitate it, is really tough due to the smear flora. You could get a passable imitation of the young cheese by using defined strains of L lactis and Leuconostoc. But the smear flora is composed of a complex blend of brevibacteriums and Arthrobacter (and others, but those tends to dominate). Those strains form really specific flavors as they work together.

I suggest trying to focus on the smear selection and wash process instead of culture. Because you can use a normal blue cheese culture approach (75% MM100, 25% MD, for example) and it will give you a passable result. But the smear is harder.

For the smear, you can try using a piece of existing rind from a real epoisses, or trying to recreate the blend. Using commercial culture, the options are Staph xylosum (MVA), a moderate b linens strain (just pick one in the middle, not too red), an Arthrobacter, and a Kluyveromyces for deacidification.

Pav,

You've given me enough 'toys' to play with for a long time.  I think I will try using a
piece of the real deal AND using a mix like the ones you suggested.    I'll send
pretty pictures......IF they are pretty.

ak

Hi ak,

Thanks for asking about the epoisses (and Paul, sorry for hijacking your thread - if my epoisses survive the next couple of weeks, they will get a thread of their own - with pictures).

They are doing *relatively* well. I followed the recipe that I posted earlier. First time I used a phmeter but I found that it came handy since it took me two hours to hit the ph markers (instead of one). The curd set beautifully compared to what I was used to. I left them to drain for three days and finished the drying with the fan.

However, the cheeses are very fragile (as expected) and it is difficult to wash them without feeling that I leave a lot of epoisses on my wash cloth. They became quite sticky yesterday and took a yellowish tinge. And they smell delicious.

All in one, a good experience even though I am not sure anything will come out of it.

Hi Helen, how are your epoisses doing? Any tastes yet, pictures? I am very curious.

I have been trying to make something like epoisses for a long time. I have never come close yet although I have had very encouraging comments from people very familiar with this cheese. And indeed, some batches were better than others.

But I finally have come to accept that what I make is an entirely different cheese not worthy said name. And distinguish it even further away, I washed the last batch with a mixture of madeira and gin.

Hi neighbor, want to do one together? Sounds like a fun project.

I want to also make one with Japanese plum wine. I know, there is no such thing as Japanese cheese and terroir-wise the idea is ridiculous, but I think it will be quite good. Heck, I'll decorate the thing with a salted Japanese Ume.

Sounds like fun indeed. What side of the river would you propose?

I don't mind your side at all. I am 2 minutes from the L train and that's 5-6 more minutes to your neck of the woods. Besides, I would love to see your BK cave and a washed rind cheese always does better with lots of friends around. My cave is too full.  Let me know and I'll being some Sky Top milk. Thinking of making some St Marcellin type cheese this weekend. Will attempt to age half the batch traditionally and the other half in plum wine.  Should work well with its flavor profile.

Sorry to say, I lost my cave under the Brooklyn sidewalk. I am building another one, deeper into Brooklyn. Will be moving the cheeses this week.

I have never made cheese from store bought milk, aka pasteurized. Oops, lie, for my first batch I drove to Connecticut to get store bought raw milk. With all due respect to Sky Top, not sure wether I want to start. I am spoiled...

Going upstate next week for a few days to do some construction at the creamery. Could possibly bring some extra raw Jersey milk back for you to play with if you please. Would sure make some nice St Marcellin.

Sounds great! When is a good time to visit the Brooklyn cave?

I have to say that Sky Top has surpassed some of the raw milk I purchased in terms of quality.  I just made some St. Marcellin this past weekend and I used half the batch to create some totally different cheese. Two wheels washed in plum wine, then 4 mini wheels aged over fumes from a bath of Calvados. This is going to be truly interesting.

I guess I wasn't clear. As said, I lost the space where the old cave was. The new cave is going to be in a house my wife and I recently bought in Crown Heights. House is still under renovation, not much to visit, we haven't moved yet. The cheeses will be living there alone for a while.

Helen,

Checking up on you, or rather, on your Epoisses types.  They should be almost a month old
by now.

I have 2 batches that are both almost 2 months.  I used different recipes and they are
very different.  One is VERY orange and almost hard.  The other is a little larger more pale
orange and more delicate.  The second one actually 'leaked' a little so I am trying to toughen
up the rind by some gentle brushing.  BUT, I got a little taste of the one that leaked and
I am very happy with its progress.  I've tried a few others previously but they didn't
make it this far. Actually they did, they just never showed any B. Lin color or aroma.
I am using a different smear now.

Did you notice that the cultures you used actually had 2 of the 3 LAB Bacteria that
Linuxboy told us about?  The third (Plantarum), I couldn't find anywhere other that
in the Kefir.  I wonder if he (Pav) knows where to acquire it.

Next time I start a couple more batches (next month), I would like to use the recipe
you used..  Are you pleased with it still, and how delicate, or gooey, or hard, or smelly are
the rinds?

Please let me know how y'all (you and cheeses) are doin? 

annie

Oude Kaas,  Annie,

Thank you so much for your interest  in my epoisses. I apologize for this belated response; life has been unusually busy of late.

I wish I could say that my epoisses are doing well. They were doing quite well until three days ago when they were the object of a blue attack.  :'(

To start at the beginning, I followed Oude Kaas' recipe to the T. I took care of air-drying for a long time in order to avoid the dreaded slip skin. I used camembert molds to shape them and to my surprise, they did not lose as much height as I expected. Next time, I will make sure to use more molds.

I started washing them with brine with a pinch of b.linens. I also added growing concentration of grappa to the brine (could not find Marc de Bourgogne where I live).
They were quite fragile (still are actually) in the sense that as I was washing them, the cheese seemed to spread around a little bit. They did not hold very well. B.linens was slow to show but it is often the case for me. Problem was my washing the rind tended to tear into it. Color on one of them is a good orange and the rind is quite gnarly. Overall, they look like epoisse (blue notwithstanding) except for one of them which has not developed a rind in spite of all my efforts.

A month into aging, they have started liquifying. Next time, I need to find a container for them as they are very very difficult to handle.

I have a Fourme aging in a separate box in my wine fridge. While I am very careful with never handling the blue before the rest of my cheese (I usually turn and air the blues on a different day), I must have done something wrong recently without realizing it.

My epoisses are now sporting blue spots all over. I tried washing them with saturated brine but the delicate nature of the rind and the liquified state of the epoisses makes it impossible for me to get rid of it. A radical solution would be to scrap the epoisses skin but I think it is not worth it.

Overall, a good learning process... Epoisses were looking good, smelling amazing and liquifying as they should. Looks like a good recipe to me. I will try again in the next coming months. Cheesemaking is put on hold for the next 4 weeks as I will be going back to France for vacations... Can't leave newborns unsupervised in the cave  :)

Hope that helps!

Helen,

I don't suppose you have a current photo of them?  Not for the blue spots, for the shape.
I have been struggling with them for months.  If one thing isn't wrong, it's another.

There are not a lot of folks out there that have done them successfully.  I spoke with Peter
Dixon, (he is available on a contract basis) and he gave me some help, but it is still soooo
difficult.  I am actually trying to get them to look like the real thing.  Heinenellie (sp?)
has some but they don't look like what I purchase at our high end Fromageries in San
Francisco.  I have come the closest this time....Close, but no cigar! 

And by the way, I haven't seen the Oude Kass recipe.  Guess I'll do a search.

Do you have pics?

annie

I find that they are different from formargerie to formargerie. Try Whole Foods, they sell a good one.

QuoteThe third (Plantarum), I couldn't find anywhere other that
in the Kefir.  I wonder if he (Pav) knows where to acquire it.

IMHO, it's missing the point to actually add in plantarum. This is the indigenous bacillus in the Epoisses area. If you really want,  Danisco has it, but I don't think in a single strain. Otherwise, use raw milk and you should be close.

QuoteI also added growing concentration of grappa to the brine (could not find Marc de Bourgogne where I live).

Epoisses is washed with the marc right before shipping. It's only at the very end, to perfume the rind. You don't wash with wine throughout ripening. I'm not an epoisses expert, however. Just how I was told it's done. Might work with other ways, of course. Might even be better.

Actually the proper affinage of Eppoises is to use a progression of washes that starts with a bacterial brine and it then gets more and more Marc added to is in every wash, until the last wash, where it reaches the level of pure Marc.  Grappa is a great alternative to Marc. Easier to find in the US, it's really just the Italian version of the same thing.

Ah, I see. Makes sense. They start with a wine/brine mix, right? A sort of morge? And then keep adding marc? Not much experience making this cheese, only going by bits and pieces of recollection.

Exactly, very low % of Marc in the beginning, then every time it gets higher until it hits 100% or close. It's a fascinating affinage!

Helen,

I definitely need to speak to someone who has made these darlings.  Mine are not holding their
shape. The  Heinenellie (sp? again) ones  are much more well formed and beautiful.  Mine look, by
comparison, drunken cousins!!!  Do you know anyone who has experience.

annie

Annie -

Regarding the size, please see below the AOC specifications:

Quote
There are two Epoisses sizes; both cylindar.
- The small Epoisses (250 to 350 grams) has to have a diameter between 95 and 115 Millimeters, height between 30 and 45 Millimeters
- A big Epoisses (700 to 1100 grams) has to have a diameter between 165 and 190 Millimeters; same height.

Mine were definitely too tall. I will post a picture tonight if I can find my memory card.

Regarding the Epoisses not holding shape, I would recommend draining and draining again. I left mine to drain for 4 days. I cannot see another explanation.

I think you're right.  This is what PD also said.....

And thanks for the AOC specs.  I guess mine aren't too small.  I've just always
bought (after taking out a loan on my home) the larger ones.

I will be trying again (draining more) this Wed.  Wish me luck.

annie

May luck be with you!

By the way, if you are using Jersey milk you may want to drain it longer. All this fat stops the whey from draining and gives you a snuggly soft cheese. It is semi-lactic after all.

I love the concept of taking a home loan for an Epoisses. In this market just don't get stuck with the mortgage being worth more than your Epoisses!

Very cute!

annie

Oude Kaas, (Jos) and Helen

Jos - On your blog you say that you just ladled the curd into molds.  Did you have any
thoughts about pre-draining in a bag or cloth....

I am starting another batch tomorrow and am thinking of pre-draining.

Helen - where are the photos?  Yes I know, I'm hounding you!

annie

I don't see the need. The curd should drain fine in the moulds given that there are sufficient holes. If you are afraid of to much moisture from insufficient draining, simply drain a little longer. If you can flip the cheeses without damaging them, they should be drained enough at one side.
After draining, while salting, be sure to dry the cheeses under a fan. This, imho, is much more important I have found.

I ladled and drained. It worked just fine for me :)

Pictures will be uploaded tonight! What a suspense for such ugly looking cheeses :)

Can't be uglier than mine!  Mine look like oranges with dermatitis....

annie

The reason I asked about draining, is because PD, after listening to me whine about the rind on the second batch, said that maybe I should pre-drain in a bag or cheese cloth.  Linuxboy also suggested
that I use GC and wait until the fuzz arrives to start washing.   Both ideas sound good. What do you
think?   

annie, again

p.s. any typos aren't my fault.  I am doing this without my specs.

Here are the promised pictures. They are ugly, please look at your own risk :p

They are not ugly.  They are prettier than mine.  Mine fit the AOC size of the small one.
they are really bright orange and too little.  Yours look great!

Thanks for sending the pics.  Mine should be ready by June 8 and 15.  If they haven't disappeared
totally by then, I will send photos. 

I am attaching photos of my extra large, super duper size, would be cam.  I didn't really think about
it or do the math, but using 4/5 Jersey milk and 1/5 Jersey cream, I have made something that
makes a Triple Cream seem 'low fat'.   It is probably close to butter with P.C. fuzz on it.  Oh well,
it is pretty.

I am starting some more traditional cambs tomorrow (no cream added)  and then maybe some
larger Epoisses types on Thursday. 

Thanks again for the pics,

annie

Helen, doesn't look that bad at all. Did you taste them? Are you going to?

Oude Kaas,

I will taste them (I am sure the blue has not gone deep - maybe it's wishful thinking) but I am waiting a bit longer for them. They are still a bit young, I think.

Annie,

I don't know how I did but I missed your picture. You are right, your cheese looks very pretty and I am sure that with all that good milk (fat  ;D) it will be delicious. Do you think the basket markings will still show after the PC takes over?

Helen,

They haven't so far.  I've used that mold before and the markings are lost to the fuzzies. 
The typical Cam mold is too hard to use with a lactic type.

My last lactic curd (this Wed) was ladled, but then I bumped the mold and it lost most of
the contents into the drain pan. I had to retrieve the curd, drain it a little in a colander,
and then repack the curds.  I didn't want to pre-drain, but in essence, I did.

Since I'm using Jersey raw, I'm sure 'my monster' will taste fine....Just not what I intended.

This milk is running me out of house and home!!!  It is (with bottle deposit) $5.50 a QUART!
and $11.50 for a PINT of cream!!!! I can return the bottles for a refund of $1.25 but it's
still too expensive.  I will have to get another job.... or panhandle.

annie

Ok - so yesterday was Epoisses tasting day.

They were definitely too young :) Very brittle and white in the center still.

Taste-wise, my boyfriend said that they tasted of "the farm". They were very strong in taste, more than I expected given the youth of this cheese (1 month and a half). Truth be told, I could not feel the epoisses much, unless I tasted the brittle center only...

However, it is excellent (had a great glass of pinot noir with it and they complimented each other very nicely) but it is not an epoisse yet. I will give the other one more time for affinage (I was quite impatient with this one, I know). I will start a new batch after my vacation in France where I will consume great volumes of Epoisses to make sure I have a comparison point.  >:D

I wouldn't be surprised if they won't taste like Epoisses after the longer affinage. I have made many batches (I think you used the recipe posted on my blog) trying to emulate an Epoisses style cheese but sure as hell, I haven't come close. Many of them have turned out to be excellent cheeses, some of them not as good. Some of them came closer to Epoisses than others and some of them were received as a cheese reminiscent of Epoisses.

I don't mean to be discouraging, I haven't given up yet. I'll keep on trying and I hope you and everybody else too.

Besides eating a lot of Epoisses, do you plan any excursions to cheesemakers while in France. Will you be in or near Burgundy. Perhaps you can try to discover the secret of Epoisses, something I was unable to do last time I was there (http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/2009/11/gaec-de-marronniers.html). Have a wonderful trip.

Jos and Helen,

I have two batches that should be ready June 8th and June 15.  They are still 'hard as rocks'.

Jos, how did yours feel one week prior to opening?    Mine are very dark orange and hard.

You know, Cams are very much easier.  I have several batches that are beautifully white and
fuzzy.  The last couple of batches have been winners.....And much easier than the 'stinkies'.

annie

I am actually going to spend two days in Burgundy. My significant other comes from Burgundy and we will be attending a wedding in Dijon. However, since we'll be taking off for the south of France after that, I don't know if we'll have time to visit a cheese making facilities.

I am not giving up on Epoisses, however I am convinced that the issue with my Epoisses is not so much the process as the ambiant flora. Let me give you the example of the Citeaux Abbaye. Citeaux Monks used to make a wonderful cheese, which was similar in form to Reblochon. In March 2010, they decided to follow the new UE rules and upgraded their kitchen and cave (stainless steel, sanitation), only to suspend their production right away. Their cheese was significantly altered by the change of environment and consumers did not want to eat that new cheese. One year ago, it looks like Citeaux Cheese is now available for sale again. Some will tell you that it is still not the same cheese.

I want to make an epoisses. My boyfriend - who knows his epoisses more than I do - told me that the center of the cheese was reminiscent of Epoisses. The rind must have been contaminated much more than I thought, which gave it off flavors.

I am dead set on making progress on that cheese (and some others, I have to say). That might be all the incentive I need to actually dig into the mechanics of cheese.

Annie - The cheese I opened was very soft. I was very surprised to see the inside white and brittle. From outside, it looked very ready. Next time, I will inoculate the milk with the linens. It gave great results with my Munster.

Helen,  WE WILL DO IT!!!  But please, if you do it before I do it,  SHARE!!!

annie

Helen and Annie, I am with you, I'll keep on trying too. I'll make another batch this week.

Oude, I didn't include you in my last post because I thought that you had actually succeeded!
Oh well, we all have our own personal idea of success.  So, Helen and Oude, we will keep trying.

Actually, I started another batch 10 days ago.  It was suggested by Linuxboy that I use GC to
develop the rind.  So I did.  As of yesterday, it hadn't developed a 'coat' of any kind, but I
started washing with light brine and a little B.Lin.  The rind was very dry and the mass very
solid. (Probably due to the predraining) I don't think this one will get soft.  I made this batch
the larger size that is acceptable to the AOC.  The smaller ones were just too tiny.

Let me know what you two are doing.

annie

So this isn't Epoisses but rather other variations on semi-lactic cow's cheese.  I was able to get them firm even without pre-draining (I made the curd as if it was a st. Marcelin). I then did a test variations. The most notable were the plum-wine washed. It took me 2 weeks to get the one I wash with the plum wine to show B.Linens. It still needs another week of washing in my opinion.  I think I figured the airing and rubbing strength on the wash and next time I don't have to do 3 weeks but can do it in a week. It also had GC but you really have to watch it with these semi lactic cow's and GC. It can really take over and gives you this gooey rind.  I will report back when I test them later this week.

The other variation was shockingly good. I have revived an old French affinage technique where instead of washing you are putting the cheese (aperitif size, 2Oz/60g mini wheels) on top of a liquor or wine bath and let it age in the fumes. It took some trial and error but what I got was absolutely gorgeous and phenomenal complex flavor and aroma. I used Calvados (apple brandy). There was zero rind for about 12 days and strong apple smell but at the end it smelled like a yeasty very fine cheese and the apple comes out only at the end of the bite. It's not like "wow, apple!" but more of a sweet fruity note that really works with the cheese.

Yoav,

It's beautiful.

This is copied from PD's manual. 

QuoteSaint-Marcellin is a lactic cow milk cheese that is made in the same way as the goat cheeses. Originally it was a goat cheese and is a thin disc shape weighing approx. 3 oz. Because a smaller amount of rennet (4 ml per 100 lb. milk) is used than in Chaource, some of the cream rises to the top during the acidification period. After acidification to pH 4.5 the cream is ladled off the top of the curd and is used as sour cream or churned into cultured butter.

Did you have to ladle cream off the top?

annie

Almost forgot a question I wanted to ask y'all...I don't think that I have read anywhere that Semi-lactics
shrink a lot while draining...But I just noticed that they are considerably smaller (height and diameter)
than the renneted types. 

I said that last week I had made the larger of the Epoisses sizes.  Well it appears that it has shrunk
to the size of all the others, which actually looks like a cheese made in a Marcellin mold.

Comments please.

annie

Iratherfly - Those are gorgeous. You mention "trials and errors", would you mind sharing with us what you learned? When I get back from France, I will try your technique. I have the same moulds as you do but never got the chance to try them out.

Annie - I think my yield is actually smaller with semi-lactic cheese but not significantly so. I am afraid that is not much help to you.

Helen, thanks for answering.

I measured all of my cheeses that were from the same mold.  I have three of each type from the
same molds. The Rennet types are 4.5 inches (all of them) and the Semi-lactics are 3.75 (all of them). 

They were all made within a month's time and the milk was all Jersey from the same dairy.

Anyone else know?

annie

This is one that should be ready in a week or so.

It is 3.75 inches in diameter...

annie

That looks very promising.

Thanks Oude.  I will post a photo when it's opened....If it's not too awful.

But did you see my question/comment about the size of Semi-lactics and renneted types.  Do you
find that the SLs  'shrink'?

annie

Helen Sure! Where in France are you or will you be? So much fun! I love going to France. Do you visit frequently?  My trial and error with this particular cheese was over the use of Calvados and building rind - how and in what timing.  This cheese is very delicate and the curd is rather soft so dunking too early will wipe away the salt. Moreover, Calvados is SO alcoholic that I was afraid it would overwhelm the bacteria of tiny cheese.  The best practice I found so far is to drain, salt and dry it first.  It creates an initial protective rind. I then prepare the Calvados "bath" (1/4" layer of that on the bottom of a box and a grille to hold the cheese on top of it, but not a draining mat; draining mat is too dense and wouldn't let the fumes escape upwards and soak up in the cheese). I dunk the cheese once on each side for no more than 2-3 seconds per side, situate them on the grille and let them age, turning them daily. (I have re-dunked at the end of the 2 weeks in fresh Calvados and they gave me a golden brown, nicer rind).
I close the lid almost all the way but I leave enough room for air to exchange. By day 10 these will smell like apple cider and appear to have zero rind (except light random geo/pc spotting). At day 12-15 I open the lid more to let them air and the Calvados dry out. Now the rind begins to build up and they smell more like cheese than apples. You want it to have apple notes at the end, you don't want this to taste or smell like apples.

Annie thanks! Yes, there was an cream on top but I didn't want to ladle it and it was kind of pointless; there wasn't *that* much.  It's a lot  like making Chaource indeed however the acidification is much longer (20-24 hours vs. 12-18 hrs). I did get a rather proper St. Marcelin out of it (used half the curd for a classic St. Marcelin) but the purpose was really to try other cheese development, not to make St. Marcelin.
As for your other question - yes, Semi Lactics do shrink considerably. The curd has is so watery and much of its volume is water so as it dries, the volume becomes much smaller and the cheese becomes firmer and less gentle. After losing 2/3-3/4 of the volume in draining, ladling and drying, expect to lose another 1/8-1/4 of what you put in the cave during affinage (depends how much pre-draining you did and how much rennet if any you've used). The St. Marcelin is a good example. Fresh it would not fit in the little Terracotta dish but at 2 weeks old no problem getting it in there.

By the way, your cheese is beautiful!

Here are my "proper" St. Marcelins:

Yoav,

Those look yummie! 

And thank you for answering my question about 'THE INCREDIBLE SHRINKING SLs' I was beginning to think I was balmy! 

One more question and I'll stop picking on you, why are mine so very orange? I do use the brightest of the B.Lins, but I've certainly never seen the 'real McCoy' that bright.  They are usually more on the brown side.  Do you know what strain of Corynebacterium they use for real Epoisses?

annie

Thanks!
I have seen the real Mc'Coy being quite orangy at times, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I am not sure what B.Linen strain they use (if any) but you also have to remember that regardless of your choice of strain, cheese develops its own corynebacteria naturally, especially if you wash it.  In other words, if you would wash it with nothing but plain slightly salted water, it would still develop some orange rind. The mixture between its natural bacteria and your wash makes this bright orange. Washing with Marc intensifies that even further because it has yeast that de-acidify the surface and help it grow even stronger.

The second thing to remember is that once the corynebacteria is alive and kickin', it continues to intensify well beyond your washes.  In other words, stop washing it a couple of orange shades before the rind has reached your desired color - it will still get stronger on it's own for a while after you are done. ...So if you haven't done so yet, it is now time to stop the washes and let the Geo finish up naturally with some white dusting and rind balancing until the cheese is aged to consume.

Have already stopped bathing them.  I've never had one get this colorful before.  So I had a
hard time stopping!!!

They should be ready soon.  Don't know what they will taste like,  but the aroma is great
already.

Thanks again Yoav,

annie

OK, now what?  This little darling and it's siblings are supposed to be ready this week and next week.  I pulled one out and pressed on it, it's about as soft as a hockey puck.

Comments?

annie

What are you waiting for, try it!!!

It's hard like rock!!!!

I don't think it should be HARD, should it?

annie

Sorry, misread it. I am upstate NY and keep in contact with a smartfone with a 3 inch screen. Sometimes I surprise myself that I can even read it. Anyway, I read soft and missed the hockey puck.
I would put it at room temperature for a while and see what happens. With a while I mean a day, maybe two. Should smell up your house nicely.

Are you aging it in a cold temp now? If so, and it is firm even in room temperature then move it to a cave at around 50F-55F, it should soften up within 24-48 hours.

By the way, I am really happy with my results, but I want something a bit more tart and less on the fatty grassy side. I am going to do something really interesting: pre-ripen the milk before the next batch. I am starting tonight

I moved them to the 57/58 degree chiller two days ago.  I'll give it a couple more days
then move them into my kitch which is usually about 69 degrees.  I have been 'airing'
all of my stinky types once or twice a week.  I can smell them from upstairs!!!

And I have noticed something interesting over the last couple of months...All
of my BL types (Munster, Taleggio, Epoisses) were not always coloring up
correctly until I started putting them together (in same aging box) with a
cheese that was already very colorful.  At first I had a second batch of Epoisses
types that were getting no color.  Then I started storing them with the older
batch that had developed much color.  They were made exactly the same. 
Don't know why one batch got color and the next not...But, when I started
storing them together, they turned a lovely color also.

They are all dark, except for the Taleggios, which I believe are supposed to
be a little lighter and almost rosy.

Well at least my Munsters and Tallegios are softening nicely.  I will be happy with
that ....(That's a lie!)

annie

That makes total sense Annie. Cheese, as you know love friends!

In cheese shops and affinage facilities they do the same. All washed rind cheese is in the same cave and all bloomy is in another cave. They fill the space with microorganisms and help each other grow.  Also the affinage process itself - the affineur rubs and turns them one after the other and his/her hands transfers mixed bacterium and help new cheese absorb the heirloom bacterium of neighboring cheese this way.  This is usually assisted by wood shelving and cellar or cave walls of stone, brick or rock.

whether or not your cheese grow rind bacteria at the same timing when your process is similar has a lot to do with variables such as temperature and humidity changes, what else is in the cave, the changes in milk from one batch to another, the efficiency of yeasts and geo in acidifying the surface, slight differences in the makeup of your wash and how vigorously (or not) to you rub the cheese when you wash it.  Having them in the cave together would most definetely help them even out and be more identical to one another.

I have been experimenting with a new way to air the cheese while in the cave.  I think that after 3 weeks I can say with certainty that my new convection system has seriously improved the results of the washed rind cheese. (in fact, it improved the results of all of the cheese in the cave).  The $6.99 secret? An aquarium pump!

Quote from: iratherfly on June 07, 2011, 06:12:01 PM
I have been experimenting with a new way to air the cheese while in the cave.  I think that after 3 weeks I can say with certainty that my new convection system has seriously improved the results of the washed rind cheese. (in fact, it improved the results of all of the cheese in the cave).  The $6.99 secret? An aquarium pump!

Just some food for thought - I had raised this a while back (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1591.180.html):

QuoteThe thought of stressing my friends stresses me out.  If not air exchange, at least the notion of a fresh air supply - an aquarium pump driving filtered air, into the chamber?  What do you think?

Pav hit on the difficulty of introducing this air, while maintaining proper RH and temps:

QuoteIf you use a pump, you need to equalize the temp and humidity ASAP because chances are that pump will be pushing in dry, warmer air. Also no good. And you also need to slow the air down because you can't have rapid air movement, cheese will not age properly, and rind will not develop properly.

Yoav, you mentioned then:

QuoteYou need to focus on circulating the air rather than bringing new filtered air.

You feel differently now.  I've always wanted to go the a. pump route, but did shy away based on the above.  Would you mind going into your reasoning, now?

Wow Paul, great memory!

Well, it's really quite simple.  The cheese needs both fresh air to stabilize and circulating the existing air to maintain a good coverage of microorganisms on the cheese and throughout the cave.  The question is at what balance.  If you push tons of fresh air to the cave you will have almost no residual microorganisms situating on your cheese because pumping fresh air in means that the air with the microorganisms is pushed out.  On the other hand, if you just circulate the existing air you keep moving around the same microorganisms the cheese won't get the dosage of fresh air that it needs to stabilize and help B.Linens and other bacterium grow.

It is therefore clear that you need to combine these two attitudes in some fashion.  I did some trial and error; circulating air inside with the pump, opening and closing the door, pumping fresh air with or without exit, etc. (The only reason that I haven't posted it here yet is because I am still trying some variations, though it really seems I found the magic balance).

So this is what I am doing now which works very well for me:

• I am using a small aquarium air pump with a flow in the neighborhood of 70 Liters/hour (size that work for a 25 Gal aquarium)
• This is an external pump which uses a silicone hose to output the air through
• The silicone hose is inserted to the door seal of the cave and points downward. It releases the air in between the top and bottom of the very top shelf, where just below is are the partially opened aging containers of the washed rind cheese so they absorb whatever air moves around but it's far enough so that it doesn't directly inject the boxes with fresh air. Just below
• When shutting the cave door, the door seal seem to bend over the silicone hose, leaving an open gap between the door and the body of the cave.  While this is good for letting air out, it lets too much air out. I cover it with folded paper towel leaving only a tiny opening at the end. You can feel the air coming out of it after about 30 minutes that the door has been shut and pump was on

To date this seems to give me the best balance between fresh air and circulating ambient air. The cheese is very happy. I think one of the nicer effects of this was that humidity in the cave rose by 10% and condensation near the cooling elements has disapeared altogether. That means that the micro-convection created by this little hose is enough to enable moisture to suspend in the air and not land and turn into beads of water in dry air.

Wow, great, Yoav - thanks for the details.  I'm intrigued by this  - in particular, with my Beaufort cave, nudging it towards 98%RH, getting the moisture into the air as opposed to gathering on all surfaces.  Thanks again - great post.

What's your current RH? How large is the cave?

The "caves" are regular refrigerators; both at 49-51; the beaufort cave hovers 91-93%.

A bit cold but nice RH for a fridge. Do you use aging containers or humidify the fridge?  What's the target aging temp for a Beaufort? Does it have a hot period to build proprionic? I am really not a Beaufort expert

On the temp, Beaufort AOC calls for an aging "at a temperature below 10C."  It makes sense, to me - long, slow aging.  On the hot build, I think I saw Sailor discuss this somewhere, to finesse the propionic development.  Relative to its kin (comte, emmental grand cru), the propionic is quite muted - .05-.2% propionic acid, compared to 1-4% for comte, 3-4.5% for emmental grand cru.

I only use aging containers for my reblochons - the Beauforts are in the open cave, and in the other cave, I have all tomme grise.

Wow, below 10C is pretty cool!  Yes, the warm aging stage wakes up the shermanii after the cheese has enough lactate in it to for the shermanii to consume. In Emental is develop eyes but in other cheese it just gives it that signature nutty sweetness. Yumm

Pav,

I've made several batches of the Epoisses types since I asked you about the correct
combination of cultures. 

I want to ask a different question now.  I use a very high fat Jersey and I'm not sure
that it is the right thing to use.  Somewhere on this site,  you mention skimming or
using part skim milk to reduce tha fat.  Would it be better to use a little lower fat milk
for this semi-lactic type?

chasermom  (cm)