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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Rennet Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: Melle12 on August 20, 2010, 07:42:43 PM
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Hi!
I am new to cheese making, and so far I have made 30 min Mozz, Paneer, 2 farmhouse cheddars, and 1 monterey jack, and this weekend I am set to make my first Camembert and Brie. My supplies just arrived from cheesemaking.com- 2 cam molds, packet of flora danica, and penicillium candidum packet. Of course, now I'm confused. I have read the recipe in Ricky's book and on this site, and I read the packet of penicillium- how do I do this? The packet of penicillium says to add when adding the culture, which is what the recipe on this site says, but the books says to "rehydrate" and mist the cheeses while they are resting.
So, what do I do? Do I add when I add the flora danica? If I need to rehydrate, do I just at water, does it need to sit in the fridge for 10-15 hours as Ricky suggests?
Thanks so much for all your help elsewhere on this forum and on this particular question (sorry if it's a silly one of if it's been asked a bunch). On the upside, I have a 4.5 GE fridge, and today I got a $13 mini humidifier at Walmart that has already improved my cave for these soft cheeses!
M
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Add to milk with culture. Did Steve give you his recipe? It's pretty decent.
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Thanks Linuxboy- I have the camembert and brie recipes from Home Cheese Making (Ricki Carroll), and for comparison, I have the camembert recipe from cheeseforum.com. For my few other cheeses, I have referenced the book, these forums, and the recipes on cheeseforum.com to get a more picture of each step. Maybe I can search the boards for Steve's recipe?
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I searched- I am guessing you were referring to the thecheesemaker.com. Another reference tool worth having available? Thanks!
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Yep, Steve Shapson. He does a decent job; few technical explanations but writing is alright. Not sure his recipes are here; he tends to charge for everything. He has an account on these forums, though. Send him an e-mail and see if he'll e-mail it to you.
Peter Dixon's recipe is comprehensive in terms of the commercial approach
http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes_camembert.shtml (http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes_camembert.shtml)
Alex has a decent one here, too. I make mine like Peter Dixon, except I use all traditional techniques (no repasteurization) and slower bacteria. Also, my mold schedule is different and I add the molds to the milk.
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Thanks once again- I had only planned to use the flora danica and the penicillium candidum, and I am wondering if what I am missing by leaving out the geotrichum candidum? Is there any benefit to adding the penincillium with the culture and spraying it on as well?
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what I am missing by leaving out the geotrichum candidum?
Flavor, aroma, and surface acidity neutralization for faster P candidum growth. P candidum growth should be rapid to create protection for the cheese in the form of a rind. Geo also will provide protection again mucor.
Is there any benefit to adding the penincillium with the culture and spraying it on as well?
Not really, it's just more work. Adding it to the milk should be enough. Spraying is used just as a process method and to create a specific ripening sequence and profile, it provides no distinct advantage.
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Once again- thanks, very helpful. I will wait on the brie and cams until I can get a supply of geotrichum.
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It's not strictly necessary. Most commercial bries and cams are made with candidum only (especially stabilized ones). Try it by itself; it makes a rather nice basic cheese. If you use raw milk, you can produce quite a delectable treat.
Candidum by itself will also help you avoid slip skin. Geo can be finicky.
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Hmmm...well now you have me on the fence- I was looking forward to my first brie and camembert, but I want to make sure I do everything I can to make them good. I do use quality raw milk for all my cheeses, so perhaps I will give this weekend a go and use the geo in my next batches. I can't tell you how helpful this has been, so Thanks. You have obviously been doing this quite a while- do you have a go to for recipe/guides (the site you gave me?) or do you just know at this point? I noted Steve mentions on his site that he doesn't just use the flora danica but adds in some meso starter- do you do the same?
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You should go ahead and make a batch :). Then make another. And then one more. And and and... It'll be good both ways, just different. Take notes so you can compare and contrast and see what you like.
"Good" is such a varied term in cheesemaking. The mold choice will influence the layers and flavor profile, but not drastically. It's like the difference between using tahitian vanilla and bourbon vanilla. They're different, but similar. But still both are good.
I have all the recipes either written down in my notes or on my site. I started doing this before Word processing made taking notes easy :). I'm trying to convert everything to recipes and howtos on my site, but it takes a long time to do everything. When using raw milk, I mix morning and evening milks, and let it ripen for 2-3 hours naturally until pH is 6.5 (for cow) or 6.35-6.4 (for goat, although I prefer full lactic bloomy rind for goat milk). Basically, a .05-.1 drop. Then I use lactic, cremoris, and diacetylactis culture, but not leuconostoc, and culture it at 88-90F milk. If using pasteurized milk, yes, I do use FD to preripen (milk 75F, ambient room temp 72-75). They point you ladle the curds is crucial to the final cheese paste consistency, as is the PF ratio. It must have .85-.9 PF, or it will start to be too runny.
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OK...I'm sold... I will got ahead and do a batch of camemberts today and brie tomorrow. I have been keeping a notebook since the beginning and converting it to Word when I feel like it. I am using raw cows milk that I buy from a neighbor. Unfortunately, I haven't found a local source for goats milk yet, but that can't be far in the future. Also, I haven't invested in a pH meter yet, though that can't be far off either- from the boards, I have one picked out, but have yet to shell out the $110+. Since I have been in the start-up phase, I have spent on molds, cheese clothes, pans, cultures, wax, rennet, a fridge, and soap supplies (fun to work on while the cheese is setting). So a meter isn't really that much of a stretch or a press for that matter...and I'm sure I will need something after that. ;D
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Well, I have my 1 gallon=2 camemberts setting up in the molds now. They didn't fill the molds, which seems like a bad sign and they are shrinking fast- I'll add the picture I took as soon as I filled and the one from 25 minutes later. I'll keep my fingers crossed- used 1 gallon raw cows milk, 1/2 packet meso starter, 1/4 t flora, 1/32 t penecillium then added 1/8 tablet veg rennet diluted in 1/4 c spring water.
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Are the molds 4.5 inch? That's what I planned to use, too. Maybe I'll try 2 gallons milk to 3 molds.
Christine
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Hi Christine,
They are 4.25" by 4.25" from www.cheesemaking.com (http://www.cheesemaking.com) (http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/p/47-Camembert-1.html (http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/p/47-Camembert-1.html)). This is my first time making camemberts, and I am so early in my cheese making in general, so I may have done something wrong. They have really shrunk down, and I am about to pull them for salting and cooling- they look good, but I guess I won't know how I did for a while. I've got my fingers crossed- it's my Grandmother's favorite kind of cheese, so I hope to nail it soon. ^-^ Tomorrow I Plan to make a 1/2 gallon (1 mold) of brie- we'll see.
Keeping my fingers crossed!
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Mine are the 4-1/2 in. from http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/p/45-Hard-Cheese-Mold-Small-1.html (http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/p/45-Hard-Cheese-Mold-Small-1.html)
I love this size mold for 1 and 2 gallon cheeses.
What recipe did you end up using? Please post more pictures as you go along. I hope to make my first cams in the next week or so.
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Hi!
I used a mix of what I read on the boards, Ricki's recipe, and the cheeseforum.com recipe- 1 gallon raw cows milk up to 90 degrees, added 1/2 packet mesophilic starter, 1/4 t flora danica, & 1/32 t pencillium candidum- let stand for 90 minutes; added 1/8 tablet veg rennet diluted in 1/4 c spring water; stood for 1.5 hours before it set; cut and stirred for 15 minutes; stood for 15 minutes; drained whey off to curd level; ladled into 2 molds on mats on boards; flipped about once an hour for 6 hours; removed from mold & salted; let stand for 15 minutes; added to fridge (currently at 85% humidity and 50 degrees).
Again, I'll be keeping my fingers crossed, and I'll probably order the geotrichum candidum and maybe liquid rennet (to make measuring easier) for next weekend. Here is what it looked like headed for the fridge.
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Hard to tell from the picture but are they 1 to 1-1/4 inches high? Looks good to me. I'll need to order some supplies to make them next weekend too. I think you will make your grandmother very happy!
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Yes, they are right in that measurement- a lot of draining while in the molds. I flipped them this morning, and I am glad to see they aren't sticking. I am thinking I'll do Brie today, though the differences seems to subtle.
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Now, I am hesitating on the Brie- should I have added both the mesophilic starter and the flora danica? If not, is my camembert ruined?
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Now, I am hesitating on the Brie- should I have added both the mesophilic starter and the flora danica? If not, is my camembert ruined?
You can preripen with FD by using a minute amount and leaving it overnight. The point of preripening with cam is to achieve the initial pH drop, and also introduce diacetyl into the milk. the point at which you start ladling cam/brie curd is absolutely crucial to the final consistency, as I mentioned before. A gentler, slower, overnight preripening produces a better cheese. If you're making it just in one day, there's no real reason to add FD, regular meso culture is fine. You used too much culture in your make. I don' know what your pH points were at ladling and at rennetting so I can't say what the consequences will be, good or bad.
Your cam is not ruined, culture selection is somewhat irrelevant with the make process you used. Candidum strain makes a bigger difference to the final flavor and texture.
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Thanks Linuxboy- the process is very enjoyable and very overwhelming. I guess I will need more recipe resources, including a pH monitor before I return to making camemberts. For now they are resting in a humid fridge, and after losing my confidence today, I settled on making a batch of jalapeno cheddar. So I know, when I you say I used too much culture- you mean adding both the 1/2 packet of mesophilic and the 1/4 t DF or was that just too much mesophilic even without the DF? ^-^
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Thanks Linuxboy- the process is very enjoyable and very overwhelming. I guess I will need more recipe resources, including a pH monitor before I return to making camemberts.
I'll write mine up for you. I make a good cam.
For now they are resting in a humid fridge, and after losing my confidence today, I settled on making a batch of jalapeno cheddar. So I know, when I you say I used too much culture- you mean adding both the 1/2 packet of mesophilic and the 1/4 t DF or was that just too much mesophilic even without the DF? ^-^
Should be 1 DCU per 50 lbs milk for cam when using Danisco, or bulk equivalent or whatever the equivalency is for other manufacturers. That's usually a little more than 1/8 tsp per gallon. Making one gallon batches is tough for cam. All the measurements are so minute. I like making lactic curd bloomy rinds better when dealing with such small quantities of milk. Don't give up; It'll probably be fine :)
Takes people years to learn how to do cam right, so you're not alone. It gets easier :)
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Thanks Linuxboy- that would be wonderful!
It's funny, I am only in the worry stage now as none of my cheeses (besides Mozzarella & Paneer) are really edible, so hopefully by the time I taste my Camembert or Cheddar- even if they are bad, they will be earlier on in my attempts so I'll be a little more confident and have more aging and on the way. For pH- do you the Extech110? It seems like a reasonably priced yet trusted model.
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For pH- do you the Extech110? It seems like a reasonably priced yet trusted model.
No, I have an Oakton lab meter with BNC connector and both ISFET and regular bulb probes.
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Here is what I follow when making my Cam.
Goat Milk Camembert
Batch #: Cam_________ Start date: ___________Batch Size___________
Record Milk PH __________
Goat Milk 85 degrees
Culture MA4001 0.05gg x Gallons _______ = ________ (This will change with new culture package)
Pcandidum 0.118 x Gallons _______ = ________
Geotricbum 0.0238g x Gallons _______ = ________
Rennet 0.28ml x Gallons _______ = ________
Let rehydrate for 5min
Stir well
Ripen for 60min
Cut curds 1”
Settle 5 min
Stir 10 min
Settle 5 min
Drain off whey to curd level
Fill molds half way
Drain 24 hours flipping at 4-6 hours
Salt 1/4 tsp per surface
Place in ripening box and flip each day for 5-7 days until completely covered in mol
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Hi TroyG,
First dumb question- is gg grams? If so, what kind of scale are you using because my digital kitchen scale doesn't register my culture amounts (they are too small- less than a gram)- part of the problem could be I only do a gallon at a time? Second dumb question- are you using liquid rennet (ml?)- if so how are you measuring that? I also see you are using goat milk- I haven't found a fresh goat source yet (and I haven't been able to talk my husband into raising them), so I am using raw cows milk. Do you find goats milk is better suited to camembert? I made my first pair of camemberts on 8/21, and here is picture from a couple of nights ago- as you can see I made the mistake of starting with bamboo mats and I had some sticking/tearing, but I am hoping it won't effect the finished product too badly.
:-) Thanks for your help
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Sorry gg should be g for Gram. I have a drug dealer scale I bought of the net. Will do .00g and cost me like 5 bucks plus shipping.
Yes single strength calf rennet.I raise animals so I have tons of syringes on had and I use those for my rennet.
Not sure which is better milk, but I am all goat all the time. ;D I also pasteurize my goat milk so I can sell these to the public. We have a small commercial operation.
You have those in a ripening box? Like a Rubbermaid container to keep the humidity high?
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Hi Troy
Thanks for the information- need to get myself a scale like that ;-). My cams are sitting on a plastic mat on a wooden cutting board in a mini-fridge with a mini-humidifier. The conditions hover around 45-50 degrees with 90-95% humidity- how does that sound? I am now wondering what I should do with them after 2 weeks- do I wrap them and keep the humidifier going or shut it off and what's the best way to store them either way...in a rubbermaid container or just on a mat?
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This post is really timely for me. I had all the same questions! Linuxboy, thanks for the reminder to let the milks mingle for a while. I do that with butter but hadn't really made the connection for cheeses.
Melle12 when do you plan on tasting this cheese?
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Hey ConnieG,
I am not sure when I will try them - nice to have 2, so I can see how they vary with age. I started them about 2.5 weeks ago, wrapped them this past weekend, and I am thinking of maybe somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-7 weeks. I have my fingers crossed- they look good (as far as I know) and they don't have any significant odor (I have heard a lot of talk on the boards about ammonia smell?). I want to try them and maybe have enough time to get another batch ready for Thanksgiving.
:-)
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That looks beautiful - I'll be interested to hear your impressions. It's fun to think of the season the cheeses will come ripe in. I'm planning on Christmas cheeses.
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They look lovely, I'd be excited if I had mine turn out looking like that. I haven't made Camembert yet, I need to get some of the molds like yours. I just have a large Tomme type mold now.
~Laurie
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Thanks- I am both optimistic and nervous, and I plan to start another batch shortly, so that we have something for Thanksgiving (probably running out of time as we speak). I have them aging in my cheese fridge- wrapped in a rubbermaid container and a small bowl of water. I will post when I unwrap them- probably another 3 weeks.
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Yeah, I'd like to hear your impressions and maybe see some pics when you unwrap them. They look really good.
-Boofer-
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I opened my first camembert today- created on 8/21 (6 weeks ago), and I am not sure how I did. I am not familiar with camembert, but I have chosen to make them as a gift to my Grandmother (she's 91, from Luxembourg, and they are her favorite). There is a faint ammonia smell when I put my face up to the cheese, and the consistency is sort of sticky...not runny, but more like cream cheese. I like the taste which I wouldn't call strong (kind of medium), but I don't care for the consistency of the rind (strange mouth feel compared to the soft cheese). I have the other half of this batch still in the fridge, and I plan to give that one another week or so for comparison- in the mean time I might need to find someplace to try a prepared cam. Thanks for all the feedback!
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It's really beautiful - look at your rind. I think that further aging will bring this cheese to be more like its target. Camms and eating them change with aging - from the youngest which you have opened to an older runny cheese whose smell will attempt to chase you around the kitchen whilst daring you to eat it.
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Wow, beautiful cheese. Looks like perfect textbook rind.
-Boofer-
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Really fine looking cheese Melle. Congrats on earning your first cheese!
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Here is Camembert #2 being wrapped- hopefully these will be ripe for Thanksgiving :-) They are a little larger than my first set and a seemed to get a little out of shape. I over cultured my first batch, so this time I left out the meso and added geo (left in flora danica & pencillium candidum plus rennet/H2O).
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I wanted to provide updates since I don't know what I would do without all the help and information on these boards. We were able to eat my second attempt at camember for Thanksgiving- a gift for my 91 yo Grandma from Luxembourg, and while I don't think camembert will ever be my favorite cheese, she seemed very happy. They had a nice thick consistency and a distinct smell and flavor. Thanks for all the useful information! :-)