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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Lactic Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: chevre au lait on October 11, 2014, 11:36:01 PM
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So, I'm at a crossroads in my cheesemaking: to continue or not. If I'm doing something wrong, I'd like to pinpoint it now; if I'm doing things right, I'll just go back to drinking my goat milk and buying cheese at the store.
I have made Faisselle, Pouligny-St-Pierre, Crottin, and Brie, all from goat milk, from a healthy goat up to date on her minerals, who gives me sweet, rich, delicious milk. When I take said delicious milk and turn it into a cheese project (other than the Faisselle, which had less flavour than tofu), I get something that normally, if I smell something like it in my fridge, I serve it--overhand--into the compost heap.
For the Pouligny-St-Pierre and Crottins I particularly minded sanitation, and followed the instructions to the best of my ability. What I got was very strong cheese, which I've had to eat with salami or hot pepper jelly to mask the smell and taste. The Crottin, which I just tried now, burned my throat on the way down. I haven't tried the Brie yet (it won't be ready for a couple of days), but it doesn't smell like any Brie I've gotten from the store (which is cows' milk, admittedly).
When people serve chevre, I go back for seconds and thirds. I survived an Esrom sandwich which my mother packed for a school lunch, years ago. I like Blue Stilton and Roquefort. But I am facing a severe challenge with this cheese I've made--a lifetime supply of meal-dominating STRONG CHEESE, which begs to be partnered with a heaping platter of chopped liver, durian, and a topping of Chinese fermented fish sauce, to make my meal from hell.
In 200 Easy Cheeses, P-St-P is promised to have "a beautiful melting paste and faint fruity goatiness". The Crottin is to be enjoyed with a glass of sweet white wine. The Brie is supposed to be "more delicate" than cows' milk Brie. Not! What might be wrong?
Theory: This all goes back to when I made the Valençay recipe, but neglected to observe that I'd accidentally added aroma culture. After removing the cheeses from the cave/picnic cooler, I scrubbed that cooler down to within an inch of its plastic life, with hot sudsy. Somehow, a cell of aroma culture remained, found the fresh, innocent, appetizingly yogurty-tart P-St-P that I'd placed in the cave, and started multiplying its stinking self on it, and in it. Does this seem plausible? I wish I could attach a smell-o-gram to get your expert opinions. Have you any other theories? I intend to make a cheese cave for ripening non-aroma culture cheeses, but before going to the effort, I would like to know if it is doomed from the start, or if it's likely to solve the problem.
I thank you in advance for your sage advice!
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Hi,
I've never made cheese with fresh goat's milk. I tried making a semi-lactic with store bought, but it is Ultra High Heat pasurised, and the taste was very "goaty". Anyway, using aroma culture wouldn't be the problem. The culture doesn't stick around, although some of the moulds and b.linens that grow on a cheese will. Your washing routine would have dealt to that though, so that isn't your problem.
It's hard to know what might be the issue without seeing your make notes, which need to be very detailed to help narrow things down. With raw milk, that you get yourself, you could track things like "time of milking w o'clock, cooled milk to 4C by x o'clock, started making cheese by y o'clock, etc). What was the temperature you heated your milk to, what culture and how much did you add, how much rennet? stirring and heating schedules, when did it go into the mould? How long did you drain it for? At what ambient temperature? Aging conditions? and so forth.
It could be your goat has some sort of natural flora that produces quite strong flavours perhaps (as I say, I'm not experienced with fresh goat's milk so I'm just speculating wildly here). You could try low heat pasteurizing your milk (bring to 145 F for 30 minutes then cool rapidly), to kill off any natural flora, for one batch. Then, follow your make procedure as you normally do. You might even want to pasturise at a higher temp to ensure you kill off the natural thermo cultures, in case that's the issue. I realise that this isn't what you want from your raw milk source, but this is just as an experiment for one batch to see if it might be something in the milk itself.
If that produces the same strong flavours, then at least it is not something your goat produces and people can offer other suggestions as to what else to try.
For starters though, how long are you waiting between milking and making cheese?
There will be a solution, but it will be in the details.
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Hello Jeff,
To answer your last questions first, I've had to collect milk over a few days--my milking goat's down to a cup a day, so four days--to make a 1 liter test batch of cheese. Mornings are fridge temperature, here, so the milk is cooling as soon as it squirts into the jar. The milk goes from the barn to the fridge. For drinking/cereal/tea purposes, her milk is good for at least a week. I only have the one girl in milk right now, and I can't compare her cheese with anyone else's for at least six months. I now have a liter of milk again, so will try your suggestion of at low heat pasteurizing, to discover whether funky cultures are arriving with the milk.
To give a brief answer regarding the make notes, I was taking pains to follow the Pouligny St. Pierre recipe as written, divided by eight; I write directly in the book when I've done something different, and have no such notations in this case. I finish milking by 9am; I was making cheese around 9pm, and did the subsequent steps--ladling, salting, placing in cooler--at 5pm. Ambient temperature in the house was 14-19 degrees celsius. The curds smelled really good going into the moulds--sour in a fresh, appetizing way, like yogurt. Aging conditions were, according to the thermometer, 10 degrees as asked for; the hygrometer that I stuck in the cave once (as it belongs elsewhere) read a little low, but it was decidedly damp in there, as moisture in the air condensed when it hit the ice packs, and made puddles. The P-St-P seems shrunken and partly runny within its rind, whereas the Crottin, though it looks shrunken, has a smooth paste within its rind. The Brie is not shrunken looking at all.
Good to know that aroma culture doesn't stick around.
Thank you for your thoughts. I will let you know, in a few weeks, how the pasteurized make goes.
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Hi,
I think you'll get some feedback from others with their own goats which will be of help (and based upon actual knowledge rather than upon a willingness to speculate on anything and everything!), but I'm wondering if taking 4 days to get your 1 litres might be an issue. You could try making a tiny semi-lactic with one days milking in a single serve yogurt cup (wash it, poke holes all over with a large needle or hole punch if you've got one) without pasturising the milk. Then, you could compare the pasurised make and the "all in one day" make. From what you've mentioned, those are the only two things I can think off quickly that might be worth a test. But, as I say, others with more actual live goat experience will have more insight that I. Good luck, and keep us posted. It will be well worth it once you crack the code.
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That sounds like a good plan (and yes, I already have DIY mini-moulds ;) ). Please forgive my ignorance, but what is a semi-lactic cheese? I don't see a section for it in the forum list, and googling brought me right back to your own posts on Cheese Forum, making cheeses involving rennet, starter, moulds, but no CaCl. Can you please define semi-lactic for me? Thanks!
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Basically, warm your milk to 27-30 C, add some starter (like buttermilk), and put 1 drop of rennet in a tablespoon of distilled water and add that and stirr. Let it sit for 24 hours in a warm place (I place it in the hot water cupboard). You should have a blob of curd separated from the whey. Pour off the whey as well as you can, doing this very carefully as the curd is very fragile. Then, take very thin slices and put in a well draining mould and drain for a couple days (it might take a couple days, but with such a small make probably done in one). I usually make these using 2 litres of creamline milk, so you could cut back on the rennet (i.e. just put 1/2 your tablespoon of water in the milk to get 1/2 a drop). A full lactic cheese doesn't add any rennet and it is the culture that acidifies the milk enough to separate the curds and whey. Semi-lactics add this small amount of rennet to assist the separation. Anyway, these are good with a bit of white mould, or you can add blue mould, or just eat them fresh.
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Ah, thank you--a little rennet is the "semi" part of semi-lactic. I've just started a mini batch of Pouligny St. Pierre with a liter of milk that I pasteurized this morning, to compare with the first, unpasteurized, batch (which said to say hi), to see if there are weird cultures already in the milk. Now that I know what you're speaking of, I'll make a micro batch of unpasteurized semi-lactic after tomorrow's milking, which will help ascertain whether it's the longer collection period which is causing the problem. I will repost when I have some results! Thanks!
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Another one of those dumb questions-----In this post and others of yours---you mention the "hot water cupboard"----I am making the assumption that this is an enclosed space where some type of hot water heater is kept. Is that correct?----and that residual heat keeps that space warmer than the rest of your home?
Yes, we actually do speak the same language---but I have found, over the years, that in U.S.A., Britain, Australia, New Zealand and other English speaking countries---the same word can have completely different meanings.
Qdog
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Another warm place to consider -- my refrigerator has cabinets around it and over it, but there is some room between the top of the refrigerator and the bottom of the upper cabinet. That area stays nicely warm, due to heat shed by the refrigerator.
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Hi QDog,
Yes, the hot water cupboard is just a closet where the hot water cylinder is found. Good place to put clothes if they are not quite dry and it starts to rain (if you hang them outside), or warm boots in colder climates. I use that because the closet stays nice and evenly warm, but any warm space (as awakephd mentions) would be good.
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Oh yes, qdog, it's the subtle differences that trip one up when traveling...I've been in restaurants in the US and innocently asked for a napkin, to wipe my fingers on, of course! I gather that "serviette" is the only proper word for that item. And in England, someone at the next table asked for the pepper, so I passed him the shaker with the single hole on top, rather than the five holes. "That would be the salt, now, wouldn't it", he said archly. I'd only ever seen the reverse!
So nowadays, with energy efficient appliances, hot water tanks are cold to the touch, and fridges no longer shed enough heat to keep a cat happily napping on top of one. My friend constructed a warming-box for me, for rising bread dough in, due to the lack of anything that makes heat as a by-product. I wonder if that would be suitable for cheese, or if lingering bread yeast would interfere...I would have thought that bread yeast liked bread dough, but the cheese book warns about cross-contamination by microbes from other fermentation projects. I will try it, because with my luck so far, what's the worst that can happen? Bread-flavoured cheese?
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Yes, the tank itself is insulated enough that it doesn't shed heat, but the pipes that come out of it, they get warm enough to keep the closet warmer.
In Nova Scotia we have taps and faucets, chesterfields are sofas which are couches, we had bureaus for our clothes, serviettes and napkins were the same thing, we drank pop, while sodas were pop and icecream, salt was the single holed shaker though (it runs faster, so the multi holed one gave too much I guess) but those were only home ones as in a restaurant they were all the same multi-holed variety, and I'm sure there are others.
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Update on the semi-lactic cheese: it's basically solidified milk. Tastes like generic milk. Pretty much the same as the Faisselle, which when I put it on toast, tasted like toast with something cold on top of it. So, same-day cheese, albeit unpasteurized, doesn't have any off flavours. The P St P has a pleasant, sour tang, as well as an undernote that I can't quite identify...sort of sooty, smoky...I remember sitting near someone on a bus, who had a similar smell about them, when I was a child. I'm wondering if hoarding the milk for several days is where I'm going wrong....
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Hmm, could be the mutli-day milk. Try another semi-lactic, but this time add a bit of white mould to it (PC, from a brie or cam) and age it out until the mould covers it. Try it then and see how it tastes. Since it starts off fine, let's see if anything happens during the aging process. Then, it could be storage conditions or it could still be native flora that needs more time to produce the off flavours. Either way, we're starting to get somewhere. :)
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Well, I started the next unpasteurized semi-lactic, with PC, three days ago--with no huge efforts at sanitation, as there's the odd dark speck in it still--but I got distracted while making it, and put the coagulants in before the cultures. It's been sitting on the kitchen counter ever since, not even drained, at ambient temperatures between 10 and 20 C. I checked it today, and it tastes and smells like plain yogurt from the store, only a little firmer. I put some in a quiche I'm making, just because, while leaving the rest to age.
Meanwhile the pasteurized P St P, which is aging, is so odourless that all I can smell is the plastic of the cooler, though it's growing its white mould rind.
The non-corrupt condition of the cheeses is all to the good, but mystifies me, because it doesn't seem to have been influenced by any sanitation practices, or lack thereof, that I can put my finger on. Perhaps what happened was that one make somehow had some bad cultures, but didn't smell horrible yet--just intriguing--and when I put in subsequent cheeses to age alongside, they got infected too.
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Hmmm, the cultures wouldn't jump from one cheese to the other, although moulds and b.linens will. I think it must have been something about the goat, perhaps in some stage of milk production? This is nearing drying off though, so it's not like you're getting colostrum or something like that. Or, it still just may be the storing of the milk for a few days before making cheese. All of these makes are made from a single days milking, correct? If so, there must be something in the milk that causes it to intensify cheese wise when it is kept for a few days. Some of the others on the boards who have their own goats will be able to give better suggestions. But at least it seems that you're getting good cheeses these days. :)
- Jeff
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I survived an Esrom sandwich which my mother packed for a school lunch, years ago.
Hey, what's wrong with Esrom (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9293.0.html)?
But I am facing a severe challenge with this cheese I've made--a lifetime supply of meal-dominating STRONG CHEESE, which begs to be partnered with a heaping platter of chopped liver, durian, and a topping of Chinese fermented fish sauce, to make my meal from hell.
Yeah, that brought a smile. :)
So, the goat is healthy? Is it perhaps a corner of the pasture or green space that has wild garlic or something else that might have a concentrated flavor when the cheese is made?
-Boofer-
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Sorry for the late reply; chaos is rampant, here. Yes, I'll go with "storage makes weirdness". I assume the goat is healthy. When someone else is in milk again, I will hoard her milk to make a batch, to see if the same thing happens. No wild garlic here, I'd have found it by now!
Boofer, the Esrom sandwich would be a bit of an acquired taste, and I got some strange looks and comments, but it kept the kids who liked to bug me, away--I guess the smell was more than they could stomach, and I out-toughed the self-styled "tough guys". Those other cheeses I made got heaved over the bank, for the bears and coyotes to eat. They were beyond "acquired taste"; I had to hold my breath, to keep my lunch down. But my dog still licked the residue off my fingers. :P
The odourless Pouligny St. Pierre has been transferred to the fridge for ten days of aging. It has the characterlessness of young, storebought, mould ripened cheese, but given the purpose of this exercise, I guess that's a good thing.
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Hi fellow goat owner,
A couple of questions/suggestions:
What breed of goat is yours? Breed can make a big difference in milk flavor.
What are you feeding her? Although the 'common wisdom' says not to feed strong-tasting veggies, like crucifers, I find that my goats can eat all kinds of (nontoxic to goats) veggies and plant matter without the flavor of their milk changing. Even with bucks in rut (I have 7) immediately next to my milkers, the milk doesn't change at all in flavor.
I would suggest a couple of experiments -- make side-by-side batches of a simple lactic cheese using your milk (pasteurize after milking and before letting sit for more than a day) and some store-bought milk, even cow, if you can't get goat. If you have horrible flavors with both, then it is probably your sanitation at some step. If only your goat's milk produces awful cheese, it must be something that only that milk is experiencing.
Try this recipe for a simple chevre; :
• Mesophilic culture (I use Choozit MMl00/101); others can be used, but this one has given the ‘taste’ that I like
• Calcium chloride (30% solution of CaCl2; used with pasteurized milk as curds won't form as well as with raw milk)
• Rennet (can be vegetable or animal rennet) in liquid form—I am giving you the amount I’d use with calf/veal rennet. *Rennet solution (mix variable number of drops of rennet with 5 T. H2 0, and then use 1 T. of resulting solution for given volume of milk)
• Kosher salt (this has no chemicals added)
1-1.5 gal milk 2-3 gal milk 3.5-4 gal milk 4.5-5 gal milk
1/8 t . MM100 ¼ t. MMlOO ¼ t. MM100 ¼ t. MMlOO
¼ t. CaCl2
*2 drops rennet ½ t. CaCl2
*3 drops rennet ½ t. CaCl2
*4 drops rennet ¾ t. CaCl2
*6 drops rennet
Acidifying (developing lactic acid) and heating the milk:
Warm the milk to 68-72F (20-22C) in summer if ambient room temperature is expected to reach about 78-80F, or to 78F in winter . Warm gently by placing the milk in a pot or sink of warm water or over very low flame, stirring very gently in up-and-down motion with cheese ladle as milk warms. Low
temperatures for semi-lactic cheese production slows the acid production and curd formation down for a more even-textured curd.
Add the culture, sprinkling over the top of the warm milk, recover the pot and allow the culture to hydrate for s min. Then gently stir for 20 strokes in an up-and-down motion with the ladle. Add the CaCl2 and stir again, in the same manner, then add the rennet and repeat the stirring. Recover.
Coagulation and ripening (the period of time during which the bacterial culture does i ts work): Let milk rest, undisturbed, for 6-12 hours during acid coagulation. The thermal mass of this milk should keep it warm during this period. It is OK if the temp drops a few degrees during this time. The longer the curd sets the more acid will be produced.
Draining and releasing the whey: When the curd is sufficiently coagulated, you will see a thin layer of whey over the curd mass and the curd may show cracks and separation from the sides. It will also show a 'clean break' when tested with a knife - using curd knife or bread knife, insert tip about 1” diagonally into the top of the curd and gently lift up. If 'clean break' has been reached, a soft, solid mass will lift up on the knife, away from the clear whey. If the whey is still milky, then 'clean break' hasn’t been reached.
Curd is ladled very gently (whether making very soft-curd cheese, such as chèvre, or any other cheese, especially with goat milk, which requires more gentle handling than cow milk due to its structure) into the molds or draining bag, using thin, shallow horizontal cuts through the curd mass. Chèvre curd is not cut into cubes, like firmer-bodied curd cheeses, for whey separation prior to transferring into molds.
The curd can now be transferred to a butter muslin lined colander with a ladle or slotted spoon to allow the whey to 'predrain' before molding, especially if using molds with few holes, so that final cheese will not be too soft . Alternatively, if using molds with many, very small holes, predraining isn't necessary, and the final cheese form will be more uniform. The amount of time needed for draining will be about 6 hours at 68-72F for direct-molded cheeses in molds with many holes. The shorter the time of draining before refrigeration, the sweeter and moister the resulting cheese (more time for a drier and tangier cheese). As long as whey is present (whey is where the lactose is found), lactic bacteria of the culture will continue to convert lactose to lactic acid, thus the more acidic the cheese with longer draining times. Refrigeration slows lactic acidification, thus the lower the temperature at which cheese drains (or is stored), the lower the final acid content of the cheese.
The time of draining and the temperature of the room determine how much whey drains from the curd . The draining period regulates the body characteristics and determines the final quality of the cheese. This period can be as much as 12-36 hours at a temperature of 68-72°F (the ideal ambient temperature for cheese production). Too high temperatures promote gas formation and excessive moisture loss; lower temperatures inhibit whey drainage and produce a very moist cheese with very short shelf life. If ambient temperatures are higher than 80F, draining should be done under refrigeration.
Salting and finishing: Two hours after forming, 1/4 teaspoon of kosher salt is added to the top of each cheese in its form. Salt improves cheese drainage by releasing more whey from the curd. After 6-8 hr of drainage, the cheeses can be gently unmolded, turned and returned to the forms. Another 1/4 teaspoon of salt is sprinkled on top. Drain 2 hr more, or until firm enough to retain their shape for further draining on mat or perforated screen. Commercially, the cheeses are now ripened (and further drained) set on open air shelving in a 60-65°F room with a fan to move air over the cheeses. The hobby cheesemaker can use plastic containers (with draining mat or screen in bottom), covered, in the refrigerator .
For each gallon of milk used, a total of 1½-2 tsp. of salt should be used. Salting develops the flavor, as well as inhibiting the production of excessive lactic acid. Soft cheeses are typically salted by sprinkling on the surface of the formed cheese, while most firmer cheeses have salt mixed into the curd after it is cut and drained, and before molding the curd. Fresh herbs or spices can also be mixed in with the salt and used to cover the cheese surface, if desired .
If not using molds to form the chèvre, the salt (and herbs and spices) can be very gently stirred into the curd once it is drained,and the curd then packed into covered storage containers and used for spreading. Otherwise, unmolded cheeses should be stored in a plastic, covered container with drainage (such as a bamboo sushi mat, or plastic draining mat or rack in the bottom of the container). Refrigerate and consume within 7-10 days .
Culture considerations for Chèvre
Chèvre is a 'mesophillic ' cheese, in that it is cultured and ripened with mesophillic bacterial cultures. These work at a lower temperature range than 'thermophillic' cultures. Mesophillic cheese cultures are often named with something using 'M'. The culture manufacturer should indicate the volume of the culture required to ripen a given volume of milk (either on the packaging or in the specifications provided with the culture). For example, X t. of MMl00/101 is used for a volume of 2-5 gallons of milk.
MMl00/101 culture produces a buttery flavor (from the Lactis diacetylactis bacteria in the culture) and a small amount of C02 gas production for a more open and lighter texture-more suited to the moister and sweeter versions of chèvre. Use this culture for a lighter more complex flavor (I use it for many other cheeses also, and consider it the most versatile of the cultures I use) . 100/101 designates phage variants of the culture; use these interchangeably .
MA011 culture provides a very close texture with the lactic flavor dominating and less buttery flavor . Use this one to focus on the milk character as its primary function is to convert lactose to lactic acid without adding additional buttery, creamy flavor.
The amount of culture used is the same for each of these cultures, but the amount of culture per gallon to use can be varied to lengthen or shorten the ripening time to regulate the 'body' and final moisture content of the cheese, and therefore, the flavor.
¼ t. for coagulation in 6-12 hr
1/16 tsp .for coagulation in 15-20 hr 1/32 tsp. for coagulation in 20-28 hr
The longer coagulation time will form a more cohesive curd and retain more moisture with draining. They should both be molded at about the same level of ripeness (acidity), which is measured by pH meter, usually, when the cheesemaker wants to use greatest precision .
The amount of rennet used affects the final 'body' texture of the cheese, and chèvre uses the least amount of almost any kind of cheese . The more rennet used, the closer the texture comes to being a
firm rennet coagulated cheese. You want to use the absolute minimum amount, to prevent a tough curd texture . If you get a spongy textured cheese, use less rennet next time.
Let me know how it turns out if you try it.
Kitren
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Hello Kitren (Botanist),
I would like to acknowledge the time and thought you put into your very detailed reply! Unfortunately I won't be able to put your recipe to comparison test until spring, as I'm only getting enough milk to put on my cereal, at the moment. I currently have only one doe in milk, a Nigerian Dwarf, first freshener at that, and she's tapering off. Her fresh milk is wonderful to drink. I should note that using milk collected no more than 24 hours prior to making a cheese, has yielded good results (as noted above in discussion with Jeff Hamm). Also, making a vinegar cheese (Brousse), initially with storebought goat milk and then with fresh raw goat milk, yielded excellent results from both sources, though that of course is a different process, and may not be an effective test for adequate sanitation. I'm leaning toward there being some organism in the raw milk which gets out of hand if I keep the milk in the fridge for several days, before making cheese.
Looking forward to spring, and more experimenting,
-chevre au lait
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Hi Chevre au lait,
I understand the lactation curve situation--I am only milking 2 does, drying up 2 and have most dry, awaiting kidding. Not Niggies, so still getting 3.5+ gallons a day and still making cheese most days. I wish I could look forward to a complete break in milking, but once my last girls are drying up, the first kids are due to arrive.
I would bet that the conclusion of out-of-control resident bacteria in your raw milk is correct. I'm not a proponent of using raw milk for lactic cheeses, and although I've used raw milk at times in some of my semi-hard and hard cheeses, even held in refrigeration for up to 4 days prior to use, I prefer the predictability of defined cultures and don't want resident bacteria to predominate (nor would I want to eat raw milk cheese before the 'safe' time has elapsed).
Good luck with your endeavors and don't you miss the great milk when it's gone, even the little bit for your cereal? I hate buying milk!
Kitren