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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => Discussion => Topic started by: amiriliano on July 01, 2015, 07:19:13 PM
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New book out 7/8 in the states. Anyone know who David Asher is?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1603585788/ref=s9_wsim_gw_p14_d5_i1?ie=UTF8&colid=1TDPLQZU9J93O&coliid=I3KSE7C6FE03PZ&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=desktop-4&pf_rd_r=1EB42S34MME5JWQ7TVJZ&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=2090149782&pf_rd_i=desktop (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1603585788/ref=s9_wsim_gw_p14_d5_i1?ie=UTF8&colid=1TDPLQZU9J93O&coliid=I3KSE7C6FE03PZ&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=desktop-4&pf_rd_r=1EB42S34MME5JWQ7TVJZ&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=2090149782&pf_rd_i=desktop)
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Yes, he runs the Black Sheep School of Cheesemaking, and he is also on this forum. His screen name is Guerrillacheese. http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=17471 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=17471)
Here's his website:http://www.theblacksheepschool.com/
I've had some good cheese adventures using his recipes and I can't wait to see the book!
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Excellent. I figured he'd be on here. Doesn't look like he's very active though...
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I just ordered the book :)
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Ordered and can't wait for it to arrive. Sounds like it will be a very different take on cheesemaking, which will be nice.
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Any info on how it's different?
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I only have what I read from the publisher's website to go on, but this is the main thing that stood out:
"The Art of Natural Cheesemaking is the first cheesemaking book to take a political stance against Big Dairy and to criticize both standard industrial and artisanal cheesemaking practices. It promotes the use of ethical animal rennet and protests the use of laboratory-grown freeze-dried cultures. It also explores how GMO technology is creeping into our cheese and the steps we can take to stop it."
Much longer blurb and details here: http://www.chelseagreen.com/dvds-audio/the-art-of-natural-cheesemaking (http://www.chelseagreen.com/dvds-audio/the-art-of-natural-cheesemaking)
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It appears to be on Google Play Books now for download if anyone's interested. You can download the preview to look at. The price looks similar.
Shane
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See a lot of faults in this type of thinking----I'm sure their are some valid points-----but mostly I see someone trying to make money based on unfounded fears and the hopes of people thinking "There has to be a better and easier way"
Qdog
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QDog: I completely agree.
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Just canceled my order. I thought it was a book about technical instructions on making cheese and perhaps recipes. Not interested in discussing political views
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Yeah, same here...
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"The Art of Natural Cheesemaking is the first cheesemaking book to take a political stance against Big Dairy and to criticize both standard industrial and artisanal cheesemaking practices.
As a professional artisan cheese maker, I pride myself in what we do. We are FAR from "Big Dairy" or industrial and I find that language very offensive. Not something I want to read.
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When I read McCalman or Rance, about 1/4 of what they go on about is the industrialization of cheese production and how it's killing artisanal cheeses. I'm sure some of it is true but it seems so over the top sometimes. I do recommend
"The Whole Fromage"
(http://www.amazon.com/Whole-Fromage-Adventures-Delectable-French/dp/0307452069/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1435869622&sr=1-1&keywords=the+whole+fromage (http://www.amazon.com/Whole-Fromage-Adventures-Delectable-French/dp/0307452069/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1435869622&sr=1-1&keywords=the+whole+fromage))
She's much more level-headed, down to earth and doesn't shun every cheese that's mass or semi-mass produced. Plus it's a very fun read.
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Just canceled my order. I thought it was a book about technical instructions on making cheese and perhaps recipes. Not interested in discussing political views
It is. There's a chapter devoted to each type of cheese and how to make it.
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See a lot of faults in this type of thinking----I'm sure their are some valid points-----but mostly I see someone trying to make money based on unfounded fears and the hopes of people thinking "There has to be a better and easier way"
Qdog
I don't. He's got a long history of teaching cheesemaking, and I have no problem reading about a different take on the subject. This publisher does a lot of books that are about going back to a more holistic way of food preparation and farming, i.e. Sandor Katz's excellent "Art of Fermentation" which is pretty much the bible for fermenters.
And to say he's just out to make money from people's fears is grossly unfair.
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Nostalgia----how convenient to think the old ways were always better and safer----but I remember kids with polio, I remember getting small pox vacs. What about life spans that used to average 45 years old. I am a Luddite at heart----but not foolish enough to think that going backwards will solve all the modern problems----especially feeding an over-populated world.
Qdog
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Nostalgia----how convenient to think the old ways were always better and safer----but I remember kids with polio, I remember getting small pox vacs. What about life spans that used to average 45 years old. I am a Luddite at heart----but not foolish enough to think that going backwards will solve all the modern problems----especially feeding an over-populated world.
Qdog
Right. While I'm impressed that you managed to bring polio, small pox, average human lifespan, and overpopulation of the Earth into the discussion of a cheesemaking book (in one post, no less!), I just don't have the time to indulge someone with this level of crazy. My time is better spent making cheese.
Good luck to you, sir!
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And to say he's just out to make money from people's fears is grossly unfair.
Yet, hundreds of books are published each year where the author is stoking up fears to in order to sell books. Many of these are based upon food. Wheat Belly is a recent one, for example. There are dozens of books based upon the hazards of GMO food products. Fear sells. Authors and editors know this. So, I don't find the above quote baseless at all and if it's not baseless it can hardly be unfair.
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And to say he's just out to make money from people's fears is grossly unfair.
Yet, hundreds of books are published each year where the author is stoking up fears to in order to sell books. Many of these are based upon food. Wheat Belly is a recent one, for example. There are dozens of books based upon the hazards of GMO food products. Fear sells. Authors and editors know this. So, I don't find the above quote baseless at all and if it's not baseless it can hardly be unfair.
Sorry, chief. You're wrong. It's completely unfair and baseless to make that kind of accusation without having even read the book and knowing next to nothing about the author. The end.
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Actually, you can link to this book on Amazon and read enough of it to get a strong flavor of what Ashford's shtick is to make an informed opinion of the book. Such an opinion would hardly be baseless. He loses me in the very first sentence he writes in the introduction to his book: "Cheese making as practiced in North America is decidedly unnatural..." Later in the book he states regarding microbes that "....all have their origin in the microbiodiversity of raw milk". Prior to his stating this he claims that the greatest "insult" one can perform in cheesemaking is to pasteurize milk. In another part of the book he claims that his "natural" methods can be used for either raw or pasteurized milk. So, which one is it? All this after eschewing the use of pure cultures, plastics, and sanitizing, etc. For good effect he rails against the use of nitric and phosphoric acid, which to the best of my knowledge are never used anywhere in a cheese making operation. (Sailor may be able to comment on this.) Finally, for good effect he throws all these statements against BOTH large scale AND artisan cheesemakers.
After reading just this much of his book I can't help but wonder who he thinks his target market is. :P
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Voltaire said “Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too”. So , Stuart, if I've offended you, it was not intentional------but this is the discussion section of the Forum and that involves opinions and we are all entitled to our opinions. Pointing fingers and getting angry at other peoples views will only weaken your own.
Qdog
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Today I turn 51 (yes I am a 4th of July baby) and I am not interested in reading books that shame or critique our hobbies. The way I make cheese is the way it has been made for thousands of years (without the electronics I guess) and I don't want to feel guilty about using rennet.
Personally I grew up in a farm and I don't remember a single time where we mistreated any of our animals. We loved them and respected them dearly for the sacrifices they make to feed us. I don't wish to begin a debate but I instill respect to animals even with my kids. Yesterday we went to get raw milk and spent time visiting and petting the baby cows. Yes we understand that eventually they are going to be sacrificed but it is too feed us and I think if we do it with respect we are not doing anything bad.
I choose who I buy from and if I suspect that they don't care for the animals I simply don't shop there. I was only expressing my feelings about this book and feel that we don't need to be vegetarians because of how some treat and raise animals. We have the power of the purse and if I don't buy cheap ground beef because I know how it was raised, they do not enjoy my dollars. I buy only from places that I know have the same respect for animals as my grandparents told me. If we, when kids, mistreated a chicken, we would get a beating because the chickens gave us gifts every day and in the end sacrifice their lives.
Ultimately I don't want to feel guilty about a hobby which is something so dear to my heart. Making cheese reminds me of when I was a little child and then we use to coagulate the milk with bits of calf stomach that was preserved for this purpose. We basically did not discard any part of an animal really, not even intestine linings. Making cheese for me and my family is something I want to continue to teach my kids and grand kids.
John
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I guess we really shouldn't judge a "book by it's cover." It's possible the recipes and methods are excellent.
But I do agree that there is a somewhat insufferable and arrogant push by people who have no scientific background to make recommendations about food safety which are potentially harmful. There is a balance between artisanal beauty and not losing your foothold on reality.
Nature is beautiful but make no mistake: it's also out to kill you! You can definitely make someone ill or worse with cheese. I *do* happen to have a background in this area and can I am often shocked by the non-scientific recommendations of "back to nature" food writers. Here's an article I wrote for the Philadelphia Inquirer regarding raw milk:
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/healthy_kids/Raw-milk-the-benefits-dont-outweigh-the-risks.html (http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/healthy_kids/Raw-milk-the-benefits-dont-outweigh-the-risks.html)
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Emi----very interesting article---with some actual facts, but help me out here. If everyone in the U.S. drank raw milk, and only 67 people died out of 300 million. Isn't that statistically speaking almost insignificant? Not saying that all life isn't precious. But doesn't that number back the position of the Raw milk advocates? I personally believe State and Fed laws are to severe and people should have the right to buy and consume properly prepared raw milk, if they choose to----but they should be aware of any dangers involved---especially concerning children.
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No problem Scott. So a couple of things:
1) We ask "what is the risk/benefit ratio" - is the risk worth the benefit?
Putting that aside:
2) We are not just worried about death but also hospitalizations and illnesses.
3) If you read the article you will see I stress that you have to compare the mobility/ mortality numbers PER CAPITA consumption. Since only about 3% of the milk bought in the US is raw, 67 deaths is relatively a lot. As I said in the article:
"Some simple math reveals that if 100 percent of Americans consumed raw milk products, raw milk products would cause and average 61,000 illnesses, 6,500 hospitalizations and 67 deaths per year (based on 2009 data)."
Does that make sense?
-Emi
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I have red a lot of data that does not support the numbers being discussed here. Sorry amiriliano. I don't mean to cause a debate but could quote the research as well but question the accuracy of the numbers shown. In fact, many believe that the main reason for pasteurization is to prolong the shelf life of the milk. Pasteurization does not make the milk sterile.
According to numbers obtained from the CDC in 2011 there were
SUMMARY
31 total outbreaks
9 fluid milk
21 cheese: 17 non-Mexican style; 4 Mexican style queso fresco
1 powdered milk
2,840 total illnesses, 10 deaths
2,200 fluid milk-related illnesses (3 deaths)
604 cheese-related illnesses: 573 non-Mexican style (5 deaths), 31 Mexican style queso fresco (1 death)
36 powdered milk-related illnesses
The point here is that it really depends how you process and handle raw milk. Personally if I am going to use raw milk other than to make cheese which will age for 60 days or longer, I pauperize at 145 for 30 minutes.
There is a lot of bad rap about raw milk and the fact is that a some people get sick. In my opinion, if the facility sends all their milk to be pasteurized, then I would be careful. But if most of their milk is to make their own cheeses which they sell and to sell raw milk, I am sure that it would be in their best interest to preserve things as clean as possible. They have been in business for 30 years and I think the first time someone get's sick, it will go the same way as everyone else and go out of business while people in the same town get sick from pasteurized milk and cheeses and those outbreaks don't cause the creameries to close down.
I think it is unfair to take unilateral positions when it comes to raw milk. It is not, by default, bad at all.
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If you would like, I would be happy to read your data. Can you provide a peer reviewed reference? Usual when people say they've "done their research" or "investigated" a medical topic, they've just read things online or in books. The actual body of scientific data does not support your claim (this is part of what I do for a living). But I am open to reading any references that you are able to present.
No offense. No need for angry arguments. We can have an intellectual discussion without passion.
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Hi
I don't intend to argue or challenge anyone's research or opinion. There are always two sides of all stories and not a single research is more than just one instance of data collections.
The numbers collected by realmilk.com are public knowledge reported by the CDC. There are no arguments there when the CDC actually offers the numbers. I am not saying that pasteurized milk is bad, I am just saying that it is not all cut and dry.
http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/PDFs/pasteurized-dairy-outbreak-table.pdf (http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/PDFs/pasteurized-dairy-outbreak-table.pdf)
Thanks
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There are two *opinions* in this issue, but the science is clear in one direction (overwhelmingly). But yes, if you read websites such as those you will only be exposed to about 15% of the actual body of knowledge. If I may, I would refer you back to my article and especially the links in it, which discuss how the issue is downplayed by proponents of raw milk.
-E
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I did not mean to cause a debate. There are many ways of looking at these facts and I don't think no single study is conclusive. My argument is to point to the fact that pasteurized milk has just about equally been responsible for negatively affecting humans.
I realize that you are a doctor and I am in the medical field as well. The debate will go on forever and I think people, so long as they practice common sense, should be fine. Many feel strong about raw milk and I kind of say, if you don't want to use raw milk, then don't. If you do, then use the best practices and tools at your disposal. Not to argue with you because I respect your posts but I don't believe that the numbers are nothing more than extra attention that is placed on raw milk products. I am not going to discuss this anymore because it is coming across as the worthniess of one research over another and that is not my intent at all. I also don't see value in mudding statements made such as "sites like that". Are the number of incidents involving pasteurized incorrect or arethe references misleading?. I did not see that at all and when I follow the references they seem to be completely accurate. Just because the document is not written by a scientist, does not mean that it has less value. The references are correct.
I spent enough time researching and printing actual scientific studies a while back, when I started making cheese, and I found that for "me" the evidence was not there pointing me away from raw milk at all cost. There are plenty of people in the world today that are healthy using raw milk. I personally grew up on nothing but raw milk and my grand mother had 14 kids all of them being fed with raw milk. I am not saying we should give up pasteurized milk as I buy it as well. Just that I prefer to use raw milk for my cheese making endeavors.
This is my last response on this matter as I do not intend to argue the use of raw milk. We should agree to disagree :)
Thanks
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I'm not sure why a discussion on any subject, has to turn into a nasty argument. Personally, I want to here all sides of any position, so I can form my own opinion.
I know for a fact that the Dr. isn't against using raw milk, especially in cheese, when his family visited, they gifted me with a couple gallons of raw milk. As a pediatrician, he has well founded concerns on giving raw milk to young children.
I also think that anyone who has used the internet to find fact based and or empirical evidence on any subject, is usually disappointed in the results----as the results are usually opinion based. Sometimes, several good studies are found that have completely different results.
Having a rational discussion on the pros and cons of raw milk on the Forum should be a positive helpful experience.
Qdog
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This is why email and posts are usually a bad place to debate anything. Reason being because you can't read the writers emotional intent. I do not feel strong about using or not using raw milk but felt that the comments where derogatory towards users of raw milk. I am sorry for defending the use of raw milk but I was not previewed to the fact that he also gifts raw milk.
See, we were all talking about the same thing and arguing at the same time, which I did not want to do because talking about raw milk in this forum is like talking about religion :)
The thread started with questions about a book which I ordered and then canceled because I did not feel that the book spoke to me and did not agree with the message in it. That's all.
Let's enjoy cheese making as each one, with the ingredients you like, become a work of art and unique all by itself.
Thanks
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@QDog: debates get out of hand for a number of reasons, the major one of which is ego.
Part of what I do is discussing public understanding of scientific concepts and that often means discussing (while trying to avoid arguments) scientific issues. Where people have trouble usually is in understanding concept such as 'consensus' and 'available evidence'. Raw milk safety is a scientific issue which has been studied for over a hundred years. It's one of those things where the scientific evidence and consensus heavily weigh towards the side of pasteurization, or raw milk product aging (the FDA designated 2 month minimum, which does in fact decrease food-borne illness but the 60 day period is debatable). These are practices that are used worldwide and have saved countless lives over the decades. It's true there are always some studies which point in the other direction (that's the nature of science, usually referred to as 'noise'). What people tend to do is Google and then pick the studies that fit their world view (something known as 'confirmation bias' - a well studied phenomenon). They disregard the rest, even if the vast majority of data disagrees with them.
So when topics like this come up, I've learned to just ask people to "show me the data." Almost always people back out at that point. It's a shame because the goal is not to "defeat" them, but to have an intellectual discussion. However often I find the other side is obsessed with winning a debate.
While it's true that every issue has multiple sides, in science, that's less true. Sometimes we do actually have a pretty good hold on an answer. Granted, that answer may change or evolve over time, but at that moment, there is a "as best as we know" answer.
I'm going to respectfully disagree with Illinois.
As for me, I do use raw milk with caveats: any fresh cheese I use pasteurized milk or self pasteurize at home per guidelines. If it's raw milk, I only use it for cheeses aged 60 days or longer (usually much longer).
I agree with Illinois that on the hobbyist level one can use good handling techniques etc. Where you get into trouble is in the mass market and public health concerns.
-E
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See we don't disagree that much.
You say "any fresh cheese I use pasteurized milk or self pasteurize at home per guidelines. If it's raw milk, I only use it for cheeses aged 60 days or longer (usually much longer)". That is exactly what I do and I have said it several times. I make cream cheese every week with left over milk and it is always pasteurized. If I drink raw milk, I pasteurize it. Now, those are my views alone and I know many people drink Raw Milk without ever getting sick (I grew up that way) and I respect their choices. If I was not a parent and a worry wart, I would not pasteurize raw milk at all and always use it that way. Until my son was born, this is what my partner and I did for 10 years and never got sick. My son was premature and very sick at birth because of the care he was getting at the orphanage so I never gace him raw milk.
It is all a preference really and studies support it both ways if you look far enough.
Thanks
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Yeah - we definitely agree on most things. My response was more to QDog's questions regarding my use of raw milk.
Where we part ways is:
"It is all a preference really and studies support it both ways if you look far enough."
Not only have I looked far enough as part of my professional responsibilities, but so has every major public health institution on the planet. It's a false equivalency to say there's as much data supporting one side vs the other. You don't have to of course and we can just agree to disagree, but I would normally ask you to prove your claims by posting evidence that your assertions are correct. Again, in the interest of moving on and since this is primarily a hobby-level forum, we can skip the science exchange if you like. I'm willing to discuss it as well.
Take care,
E
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"The Art of Natural Cheesemaking is the first cheesemaking book to take a political stance against Big Dairy and to criticize both standard industrial and artisanal cheesemaking practices (emphasis mine). It promotes the use of ethical animal rennet and protests the use of laboratory-grown freeze-dried cultures(emphasis mine, again ???". It also explores how GMO technology is creeping into our cheese and the steps we can take to stop it."
Ummmm. I started to post this but scrolled down and saw the "discussion". I'll reserve any comments until I have a chance to read them all. My primary concern is the statement about taking a "political stance". Health concerns, pathogens, best practices, etc. are worth discussing but the third rail of POLITICS (or is it Social Security, I forget ???) shouldn't even be mentioned in the context of artisanal cheese making. I'll leave it there and enjoy the discussion :).
OK. Skimmed back over the thread and my 1 1/2 cents: This forum is one with a diverse membership who can have a interesting and rousing discussion and still be friends in the end. Cheese making trumps over politics every time ;).
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Ditto. And each cheese is a creation of work of art.
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Emi----my apologies ----I know that your position on raw milk is for use in aged cheese and I should have made that clear---so give me 30 lashes with a string cheese :) The only thing I am certain of----is raw milk gives me better curds, better cheese flavor with better texture, and I do age a minimum of 60 days. That's an opinion based solely on my experiences so far----the only science that comes into play here, would be watching Mr. Spock or maybe Macyver while making my cheese. >:D
Qdog
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After following this thread with great interest, I have come to the conclusion that the cure for our deeply polarized country is for everyone to start making cheese.
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I love a spirited discussion - It is where ideas are born, opinions aired and ultimately some sort of consensus reached. I too enjoy the fruits of our hobby with the full understanding that the main ingredient is an extremely perishable food and like all types of food that spoil easily - need the due care, respect and attention it is due. And the point of right or wrong is moot when people are not allowed to make a choice. That which is encouraging here, is that which is sometimes need to motivate change, - passion. Be passionate and make more cheese. :)
-- Mal
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Without following all of this thread I have to say the book sounds interesting and hopefully it combines a lot of simple practical advice with the politics.
We have similar politics here in Australia, with the debate about whether raw milk should be legalised or not. I like to think I'm in the middle ground on this; I have to say I'm sympathetic with the 'legalise it' movement, though I think their arguments can get very silly. They tend to argue that raw milk is much better for you, whereas I wish they'd just focus on the fact that raw milk is simply a higher quality product for cooking. But then, I'm not in it for the health, I'm in it for the deliciousness. As for the government position, well, I'm happy to acknowledge they have a point about the importance of public health and that risks like listeria are real - I just think they greatly exaggerate these risks and ignore the rise in artisan cheesemaking at their peril.
There are lots of other, I dunno, I suppose you'd call them 'political' matters in cheesemaking: animal or vegetarian or GMO rennet? Which cultures to use, store culture, heirloom culture, wild culture? And so on. Everyone has their favoured way of doing things and their favoured method. Looks like the book will touch on a lot of this too. I'll look out for it :)
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Personally, I'm looking forward to the book because I have an interest in pre-industrial tech. Cheese has been made for thousands of years before DVI cultures and perhaps, eventually, I'd also like not to be tied to purchasing them over and over. There is something quite liberating (for me) about having the skills needed to "recreate civilization from dirt". :)
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Excellent points made by all here. And honestly, none of us really know yet: this book might be great.
As someone who is obsessed with and loves the beauty of cheesemaking AND works in public health (specifically pertaining to children) I can appreciate both sides. I would say it's important for people to learn about their food's origins and all that is connected with its production. On the other side of the balance though, we have to be careful not to over-romanticize the past. Public health has come a very, very long way in the last 150 years and while modernization can feel "sterile" at times, it does have its place. Things were pretty lousy "back then" in terms of public health...
The beauty of the craft and the pleasure and pride one gets from producing ancient food from scratch are amazing things. But we should also avoid floating away from reasonable safety practices...
Just my 2 cents..
-E
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After following this thread with great interest, I have come to the conclusion that the cure for our deeply polarized country is for everyone to start making cheese.
Ain't that the truth brother Bob. We're down here in SC fighting the Civil War all over again :(. I'm ready pack up and move to NZ or Aussie-land; everyone seems happy there ;D.
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I'm doing my part, I live in a blue state and sell most of my presses in red states. And also I am tolerant of any ones views unless they don't agree with me.
A cheese press is a wonderful and peaceful thing because there is only one right answer to the question " what is the mechanical advantage of this press?"
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I'm doing my part, I live in a blue state and sell most of my presses in red states. And also I am tolerant of any ones views unless they don't agree with me.
A cheese press is a wonderful and peaceful thing because there is only one right answer to the question " what is the mechanical advantage of this press?"
So, does the correct answer depend on whether or not one ignores friction? ;)
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Every one who has taken a class in physics "knows" that all experiments take place in a vacuum with no friction.
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A cheese press is a wonderful and peaceful thing because there is only one right answer to the question " what is the mechanical advantage of this press?"
The problem, of course, is that we* are not content with the mechanical advantage; we want to know about the moral advantage! ;)
*Just to clarify, that is the generic "we," not "we on this forum"!
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I'm doing my part, I live in a blue state and sell most of my presses in red states. And also I am tolerant of any ones views unless they don't agree with me.
A cheese press is a wonderful and peaceful thing because there is only one right answer to the question " what is the mechanical advantage of this press?"
Ha!
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Deep !!
8)
-- Mal
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My book arrived and I glanced through the whole thing then started in to read from the beginning . I have to say from what I can tell so far this book has some very useful info , is there some beliefs expressed yes but then we all express our beliefs through our actions if not our words. And I am sure I would not agree with at least half the users on this forum with at least half of what they believe about the world and its current system but that does not mean I would not be willing to listen and learn if they had some useful info .
I think what he is really trying to say is that with farming we have people practicing natural systems of how things were done in the past , and wine ,beer , bread , pickles , sourkruat all have groups making with natural starters and yet cheese has. One of that .
Chees as we make it as hobbiyists is really handed down from commercial production and very little of what we do is handed up from the makers of the past especially here in North America .
He talks about using kefir as a starter culture as it contains Meso and therm cultures as well as geo so with this one thing you can make cams either raw or pasteurized . My wife has kefir grains so I look forward to trying it out.
One thing I can say is that he sure makes cheese look simple , and really it is , but when we first start out it all seems so mystical and this book seems to have a way of making it all seem so natural , and maybe that is the point of the whole book .
I can see how this book might be a great starting point for beginners instead of one of the kits. All one needs is kefir grains and milk .
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I just re read some of the original posts about the book and one thing I can say is that it is not a "wheat belly book "
He even mentions that is is really not probable that cheese should be made commercially with raw milk as the risk is too high for contamination , but on a small scale that is more controllable yes maybe.
Also he is. Not against rennet , he is all for it and thinks it is far more humane to raise the calf for ethical veal and rennet rather than kill it at birth.
My guess of what has happened is that the publisher decided hobby cheese makers were not a big enough audience and collected all of extreme verbiage And wrote a sale pitch to attract a much bigger audience
This is not the first time I have heard such things from authors , I have even heard of publishers changing technical descriptions to jibberish.
He states his beliefs ,how he lives his life and how that lead him on this path of learning how it was done along time ago .
Now it is up to us to use what is good and works within our belief system and discard what does not , at least until the day it does start to fit our beliefs .
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Thanks for the input----it helps to clarify the intent of the author by someone that has been reading it-----anyone else read it?
Qdog
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The author lives on an island that is so far off the grid that the "off griders " look like New Yorkers. I suspect that leads to certain thinking .
The more I read the book the more I see that he is just bringing up issues we have all talked about on this forum, raw milk use , home cultured blue , wild starter cultures , wild affinage . All with the intent to save money , be more self sufficient , and try out different ideas.
I say this is well worth a read
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Interesting -- thanks for the report. There have been a few threads in the past about using kefir as a starter, but as best I recall the consensus was not very positive. I don't recall if that was based on actually having tried it or not ... :)
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Yes, much of this discussion thread is not actually based on David's book. I recommend this book. He makes cheese making simple, safe and accessible to more people. David's book is mostly recipes.
How do I know? After reading an article by him on-line, a friend and I had David Asher put on a three day cheese making conference in our small village mid-June. I wrote and he responded...
David does address dairy issues though. For me as a person in a big dairy state who has to be part of a local herd share to get raw milk, there are political ramifications to making cheese that are inescapable. I have to jump through hoops to be a herd owner to buy GOOD, CLEAN raw milk (2-3 days old, with monthly tests less than 10 and usually 0 coliforms) from animals whose healthy diet includes a wide diversity of grasses making for beautiful curd and excellent cheese--each and every time. I believe in 'Live and Let Live', I just wish Big Dairy did too. I do not remember David saying anything negative regarding artisan cheese makers. Quite the opposite, he served a variety of cheeses he bought in an artisan cheese shop on his way to our workshop. My impression was he understands their issues and the constraints they are working under with the USDA.
Let me digress before going further, I have been meaning to introduce myself since joining this forum a couple months ago, but have been too busy making cheese, being a grand parent and gardening. I will do that, but not here, as I have pictures, etc. to post with my introduction...I owe so much to the help I have received from folks on this forum. Thank you. I have made the following 'in the style of' cheeses using DVI (with no flops--thanks everyone): Chevre, Crottin, Cheddar, Shropshire Blue, Stilton, Humboldt Fog, Camembert, Gorgonzola Dolce, Caerphilly, Feta, Provolone, and now Tomme.
Using kefir as the culture as David suggests, I have made a tomme cheese. In addition, I am the affineur for the cheeses our various classes made (Crottin, Gorgonzola, and cloth bound cheddar). I only received David's book two days ago, but he said that our workshops covered what is in his book.
Our cheese group just ate a 'wet nurse' style Crottin--amazingly delicious. But so are my Crottins made with DVI culture, not the depth of character and flavor though. Both made with raw goat's milk and picture perfect interior development. What I did notice with absolute objective certainty is the care of the mold rind is so, so much easier with kefir as the culture. I am seeing this ease of care to be true with the Tomme too (albeit the Tomme is still fairly young).
David recommends using kefir grains (one of several methods of culturing he discusses) because of the great diversity of cultures found in Kefir grains. All the microorganisms in kefir are probably not even completely known at present, much less what all their advantages are. For example, the geotrichum in the kefir is probably not one single strain but a multitude of geo strains. This is why it is so much easier to care for my bloomy cheese. In my opinion, a single strain geo can not compete in ease of care side by side with the wide variety of geo strains found in kefir grains. A wide variety of geos can better handle a range of climate conditions. If my 'cheese cave' fluctuates in temperature or humidity the diversity of geos are not affected as a temperamental single strain is. This same diversity holds true for the Mesophilic and Thermophilic strains creating more depth of character and flavor. Ecosystems do better with diversity. Monoculture anything, whether it is chicken, pig or single crop farms, do not have the inherent resilience to withstand environmental challenges, whether from disease or climate. I am now finding this to be true with cheese cultures and the several cheeses I have worked with so far using kefir. This is not politics, this is science. Are there any draw backs to kefir as a cheese culture? Not what I have seen so far. I believe my raw milk cheeses will be much safer and more tasty. I look forward to making more cheeses using kefir to learn first hand what the strengths are in this method.
Also it is important to note, the monetary savings is tremendous. I do not have to purchase expensive DVI cultures, maintain them in my freezer and then use them before they expire. I also don't have to wake them up from being frozen. My impression was that David wants cheese making to be accessible to everyone, not just the wealthy who can afford all the equipment, cultures, etc.
While I cannot speak for David as I only met and talked with him for four days, I believe he is looking at traditional cheese making techniques to understand their successes and what we can learn from the ancient art of cheese making as it has been handed down through generations of cheese makers. I had my doubts, but he is very knowledgeable and well grounded in this knowledge with extensive personal experience. He makes cheese making easy and safe for the individual.
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Thanks so much for doing this write-up, Bloomer! Quite fascinating. And how wonderful that you were able to meet David!
I've had the book for a few weeks now, and have been slowly working my way through it. I think it's a really great read, and I am super keen to try out the recipes -- once I get a hold of some kefir grains. I'm currently trying out David's technique for camemberts, though I'm using regualr cultures. Will be interesting to see how they turn out.
Thanks again!
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I agree david makes cheese making look easy in this book .
I am not quite sure why cheese making looks easier in this book than others that I have read , but this book is certainly the one I would recommend to begining cheese makers .
And I think there is certainly some things in here to challenge the intermediate and experienced cheese maker also with his back to basics approach
not that long ago all cheese was made this way
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I am a complete newbie in cheese making, and I decided to buy this book fairly spontaneously because the "making cheese from scratch" aspect intrigued me.
The political statements may indeed sound a bit rude, but I really think David Asher has a point. A method for conserving a natural product by fermentation - just like pickles, sauerkraut, etc. - has largely been turned into a "first sterlize, then inoculate with single strain cultures" biotech operation. It is somewhat ironic that when pickles, beer and stuff is made at home people usually use the old traditional methods, but for making cheese the modern approach is preferred.
Let me add my 2c to the raw milk discussion. As a European, I am somewhat bewildered by the fear of raw milk products that many North Americans have. But as long as the milk is not contaminated to begin with and it is handled correctly, the risk is minuscule. I you find a source of good raw milk, then I see no problems with using it for cheese - even below the 60 day period.
If raw milk cheese really is such a risk, I wonder why there are so few cases of contamination in Europe where commercial raw milk cheese is not banned. Especially the French make a lot of raw milk cheese, not only artisan cheesemakers but also larger companies.
This book advocates the use of raw milk but also advises that adding kefir can bring pasteurised milk close to raw milk in terms of microbial diversity. As a beginner I would not want to use raw milk before I have a good deal of experience, so I am keen on trying this out.
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Yes, much of this discussion thread is not actually based on David's book. I recommend this book. He makes cheese making simple, safe and accessible to more people. David's book is mostly recipes.
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I too recently bought Davids Book and I'd have to disagree with the quote above as the recipes don't really appear until half way through the book. I am a little disappointed on the scientific details about Kefir - I would have loved more to support his exclusive use of it. The rhetoric around the culture companies is a little wearing and his Raw milk position restated soo many times - I get it !! I do however applaud his view on the "Rights to Raw milk" where like any food source that is abused will bite you. But, I do think there is merit in his approach - Not that I'd EVER get to make "vells" it was interesting. I also would have liked a bit more information on the Biology of Kefir.
Is the book going to change how I like to make cheese ? No ! is it going change my view of using DVI Cultures - not really, though, it is nice to have an alternative. Will it change my appreciation of what I make - Absolutely NOT ! I think we as Home Cheesemakers have an amazing pastime - some of us are lucky enough to make a living from cheese. What does it do for me ? Well quite a bit... It does show what happens when using raw milk to make cheese. It also has re-ignited my yearning to find a source of raw milk to try some of these. The fact that I like PC and GC on my 'Malemberts' and the cultures I use in my Cheddars that I know will reach a certain pH, in a certain time at a certain Temperature so that I can successfully age them, brings glad feelings to my heart. One of the things that David skirts around it that the use of DVI cultures, pH meters and thermometers make the process somewhat repeatable and at around about $25 a KG (that's using the best milk, IMO, Melany Milk and cream) I want to have some semblance of control that I can repeat. From my point of view as a Home cheese maker, couldn't give two hoots about Phage or the lack of biodiversity of cultures. Am I sad that there are cheeses and processes we have lost due to 'Industry' ? Yes I am but I'm pragmatic enough to accept that change is inevitable.
I look in my cheese cave and I know what is there and I am happy.. The romantic in me would love to have access to raw Goat and Cows' and have room to leave cultures growing on my 'Counter' and an optimal "cool and Humid" cheese cave and be totally organic. But the reality is, I can't, it's Queensland where its hot, humid and I can't get raw milk and the only place I get milk is from a supermarket - not that I'm happy with that, but it the best I can do - at the moment !!
So, where from here.?? There is a lot to recommend in the book and I get the most out of it from the point of the Cheese making process where it's not something to be afraid of. There are other ways to the same end.
I wonder why there are so few cases of contamination in Europe where commercial raw milk cheese is not banned
Answer: Distance. Distance from Farm to consumer
I am somewhat bewildered by the fear of raw milk products that many North Americans have
Australians as well. Growing up I only ever had raw milk even in the 1970's as I grew up in Central Queensland where the local Dairyman would deliver absolutely farm fresh milk every morning to the front door and the Boarding School in Lismore I went to had their own herd so until I left High School in '77 all I ever had was raw milk.. I am still here and by all accounts reasonably healthy. So what did we all do before that ?? Bought Local, that's what ! Local farmers supplied local households.
There is a lot in this book, 'Big Culture' and 'raw milk' diatribe aside, that I have yet to digest and yes things to learn and I do think it is worth the investment.
-- Mal
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I am a total beginner with my own source of fresh raw goats milk (5 milking does) so I love the raw milk cheese directions. I have my kefir grains coming in the mail as we speak and because of his book I am eager to try all the different cheeses. Before, I started with the cheese kits for practice and I just wasn't getting it. My cheese always seemed tasteless to me, I didn't do the aged complicated ones though. With his book I can't wait to tackle all the different styles, have my wine cooler temperature all set and already have 3 different types aging using what cultures I already had. I actually agree with him on the raw milk though, just last week there was a recall on contaminated cucumbers, hmm not in raw milk but veggies, another reason I garden!
Anyway, I enjoy the book and it has me excited to explore the are to cheese making.
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Thanks mal
I already use raw milk , but I would like for some one who does not use or can not get it and who also has kefir to try a cheese they know well and can repeat consistently to try adding a little kefir to the mix and see if it really can bring back some of the flavor profiles of raw milk.
I think if David's theory turned out to be correct and it improved the milk close to raw flavors it would be a huge change for the home cheese maker.
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@G. I think you misunderstood, I "Get' his view on raw milk - just didn't think it needed mentioning every page ! , I cant buy it myself - Illegal in Australia. I've read the book through twice and I think there is a middle ground with big business at one end and Mr Asher at the other, there is a lot of room in between. One of those things that I can appreciate is the diversity Kefir brings to the game. check this Australian site http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#order (http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#order) - it's a long page but worth the read and about 2/3 the way through the Author lists the various cultures and yeasts that they have identified in Kefir. And there are some I can't get as smaller culture packs. Of the large list I am most interested in these - as well a the usual cast of players..
Kluyveromyces marxianus
Kluyveromyces lactis var. lactis
Geotrichum candidum - yep Malemberts here I come...
Debaryomyces hansenii
The continual care of the Kefir grains is required and for a household that doesn't use that much milk and I only make cheese 2 or 3 times a month, I'm wondering whether it's warranted - time will tell on that one. I plan to do the following.
1. Get some Kefir grains apparently the 'Culture packs' (fake Kefir - David calls it) don't have the diversity or behave quite the same way as the grains.
2. Make two Cheeses at the batch loads that I know very well - My Malembert (I will be adding P. candidum) and a Caerphilly using just the Kefir as the starter and the milk I use all the time. These mature reasonably quickly and I know the process.
Now, as I'm a details guy, I will use my pH meter because it like to ... and I will use a Thermometer - cos again I like to know these things :)
I'll keep you all posted.
There is a lot of good information in the book, how it translates into what materials I can get is yet to be seen.
-- Mal
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Mal , I agree with you there is the room for both sides to have a place at the table.
And I also think that it takes the 2 extremes to help the middle feel comfortable with their position . If people like david did not exist we would be the extreme
I certainly look forward to hearing about your cheese makes with and with out kefir.
I have only ever made cheese with raw milk so I have no way of knowing if the kefir improves the cheese in any way .
I think I mentioned some time back that I am from near where David lives and I know that they are really very far off the grid type of people living there , if you do not own a boat or know some one who does then you do not get there .
As far as making kefir goes you can do as little as 1 cup a day for your make and just drink it as a " health drink" as my wife would call it when she hands it to me each day. You might even get away with a smaller amount each day for your make .
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Yep - I agree and I think we are a little bit extreme :). David's book maybe just shifts me back towards a little left of centre. I do envy you with you raw milk availability <sigh!> I wish it were so here - maybe. I've had good responses of my Cams so maybe this method might just make them a little better. I will certainly post my efforts with Davids methods.
-- Mal
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Mal, I don't know if you want to go down this road, but there are options available to purchase raw milk in South-East Queensland in the form of "bath milk". A lot of health food and organic shops sell it in bottles. I know it's a bit controversial, but the option is there. Also, I used to be a part of a herd share at Eden Hope Organic Dairy, which is out at Gympie. I was then able to legally order raw milk through Food Connect. I don't think you need to be a part of the herd share anymore - you can just order it, though it is now called bath milk as well. Still, it's pretty local, and given the extra hoops they have to jump through for organic certification, I reckon you could be pretty confident that it would be fine for drinking and cheesemaking.
I moved recently down to Wongawallan (near Tamborine Mountain), and have been delighted to discover there is a very small local dairy called Wallan Vale Dairy that sells its jersey milk in bottles in local shops (also as bath milk). I got in touch with the owner, and he said they do sell direct from the dairy. So when I get back from my trip to Japan, I intend to pay him a visit and get some fresh raw milk for cheesemaking.
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Mal, I look forward to your experiments!
On the kefir, and keeping it going at a slow rate -- I have been making kefir for six months or so. I started with around 1-2 Tbs of grains, sent through the mail, twice -- the first batch of grains never seemed to produce the right taste and texture, so I tried again. The second batch of grains has worked well. It takes a bit of time and patience to work up to larger batches, but I now have enough grains to brew a gallon at a time. Now, it would be possible to brew a gallon every day -- but while I love the taste and texture, and drink some every day, I am not drinking enough to use up a gallon a day! (Not to mention going broke buying milk!) So what I do is to "slow brew" my kefir. I describe one approach here: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,14907.0.html, (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,14907.0.html,) but since then, I've changed my approach a bit. Now, when I strain out a new batch of kefir, I put the grains in the gallon jar with just around a quart of milk, and put it straight back in the fridge. I let that brew for a week or so, and then when I begin to get low on my drinking stock, I pull it out, fill it up with milk, and leave it on the counter for 3-4 hours. Then back in the fridge, and the next day it is thick and delicious!
Note that this slow-brew approach is not something I've seen anywhere else. I'd be surprised if others haven't come up with something similar, but the point is this: I have no idea what the implications are of this approach for the diversity of the cultures or even the safety of the final product. But I can attest that it gives me a wonderful result!
By the way, I'd gladly send you some of my grains ... but I'm doubtful about how well they would travel across the sea! Probably better if you can find a local source ...
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@A Thanks for the kind offer. I'm pretty sure it would get stopped by customs however..
@S Thanks for the tip. Having to go to the US in October will curtail my Cheese making for a bit but will certainly follow up on you tip when I return... BTW I'm just across the river in Cornubia.
I think that Davids book, while not a bad book all said and done, doesn't quite give me the confidence that it will produce cheeses that which I have come to enjoy but I'm willing try. You never know if you never give it a go !
-- Mal