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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => STANDARD METHODS - Making Cheese, Coagulation => Topic started by: Martin on November 27, 2016, 06:51:09 AM
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I've been making cheese almost 5 years. I make mostly fresh cheeses, chevre and fromage blanc. I regularly make Mary Karlin's Bloomy Blue Goat. About two years ago I started having trouble getting cow's milk to set. (I have since made a lot of cream cheese.) I use exactly the same ingredients and follow instructions *very* carefully. I now always increase the rennet by about half if using cow's milk. (Should I also increase calcium chloride?) Sometimes it turns hard and rubbery. I think I've had about two successes since this started. I just tried another cheese and it didn't set. Very frustrated. Any ideas?
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You should not need to use calcium chloride in raw milk unless you pasteurized it. ;)
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I don't use raw milk.
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The only other thing I could think of is it's Ultra-pastuerized. Beyond that you'd have to ask what of the pros.
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Are you using store-bought pasteurized & homogenized milk? If so, even if you are using the same brand, they may have switched suppliers or processing, so that the milk you are now using is pasteurized too high-temp - even if not ultra-pasteurized.
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Good point Andy. I know the more expensive milk at Albertsons/Safeway will not make decent curd. The cheap brands are great!! Here are the ones I bought Friday from Albertsons for my Alpine cheese and it was amazing. Three gallons of 2% and one of whole milk and got a 4 pound 7 ounce cheese.
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I too have started using, and getting the best results from, the cheapest store brand - Country Fresh milk from Food Lion, $2.69 per gallon. Of course, if I could get my hands on raw, or even LTP, non-homogenized milk, I'd go for that in a heartbeat ... !
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I too have started using, and getting the best results from, the cheapest store brand - Country Fresh milk from Food Lion, $2.69 per gallon. Of course, if I could get my hands on raw, or even LTP, non-homogenized milk, I'd go for that in a heartbeat ... !
I can get great raw milk from http://blackjackvalleyfarm.com (http://blackjackvalleyfarm.com) about 5 miles from me at $7.00 a gallon. If I take my own container I can get it cheaper but I reserve that for the "special" cheeses. ;)
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I'll try switching brands but I usually use one of two high end local brands that are not ultra-pasturized.
Could adding lipase help?
Also, if I increase the rennet do I increase the calcium chloride equally?
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High end is not good, in my experience. Lipase will just make your cheese taste like parmesan, and no you don't.
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The milk I have been using says pasteurized, not ultra-pasteurized.
I will certainly try the cheapest milk I can find, next time.
I'll let you know if that does the trick.
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Al, I wish I could get raw milk on a regular basis - it is illegal to sell it in this state - though once I did get to use some brought in from out of state. Incredible how much better it was! However, another thread has just alerted me to the availability of some LTP cream line milk an hour away, which would be the next best thing - I'm anxious to give it a try.
Old Goat, it is odd, but if you have to use P&H (pasteurized and homogenized), there is not necessarily a correlation between price and how well the milk works for making cheese. Part of the problem is that "pasteurized" covers a relatively broad range of temperatures, some of which are not far below "ultra-pasteurized" - so there is no guarantee that brand A, pasteurized, is going to work anywhere near as well as brand B, pasteurized. :(
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What do you consider LTP?
The milk that I'm using is pasteurized at 72C/161F for 15 seconds. It is not homogenized and has not been standardized in any way.
Is it normal that milk has added vitamins in the US? I don't think that it is even legal in Denmark...
:) Danbo
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LTP is heating the milk to 60°C (140°) and holding it there for 30 minutes. Yes, a long time - which is why most milk processors don't do it. So much faster to heat the milk hotter, for just 15 seconds ... but much more damaging to the milk.
Most store-bought milk in the US has Vitamin D added to it. I'm not sure if there are any brands or types that don't ...
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Most store-bought milk in the US has Vitamin D added to it. I'm not sure if there are any brands or types that don't ...
Well all of it up here does because the sun never comes out! LOL
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Annoying that it is so hard to get LTP-milk... :(
Here LTP-milk is called thermized milk (I hope that the translation is correct).
We don't get a lot of sun here... LOL... :)
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So I tried the Value Corner milk shown and another cheap brand. Neither one worked. The first one I used 1/2 tsp. CaCl2 and 1/4 tsp rennet. Same ol', same ol'. Pretty much just runny, barely separated milk solids. Second one I used 1/2 tsp of both and it will actually leave some curds in the mold but still mostly runny, no clean break. (see pics) Looks like it is setting and will give a clean break but it doesn't, expels no clear whey and there is little to no separation. It even smells right. I am worried about the taste with so much rennet. So, if it is not the milk, rennet, calcium chloride or starter, what can it be? I use distilled water to cut the rennet. Again, goat milk works just fine.
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Do you have a ph meter ?
Assuming you do not , as there has been no mention of ph so far .... it is always possible that the milk has too high of a ph . So I recomend extending the time you let it sit after adding culture by double , before you add rennet . This will allow for more ph drop which helps with curd firming.
See if that helps give a firmer curd . Also try it with a gallon of milk so you do not feel that you are wasteing too much money .
If it does improve at least a little you might want to get a meter as it will end up cheaper than experimenting with milk to figure out how long you need to let it sit for best results .
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You are correct about the pH meter. Letting the culture ripen longer is a strategy that I *have* tried in the past. I let it sit up to an hour to no avail. But I am willing to give it a try again using this cheap milk. Maybe that and doubling the rennet will work. I am using only one gallon at a time. The recipes for fromage blanc, that I have, all call for a single gallon.
In one piece I was reading on coagulation it mentioned that one should not move the milk after adding the rennet. I usually add the rennet and move the pot to a corner of the kitchen within a minute or so. Thoughts?
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Moving the milk within a minute or two after adding the rennet haven't got a negative influence on coagulation (I think). I usually stir for a mikute or two after adding rennet.
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Old Goat,
How frustrating! I echo Danbo's comments - make sure you are not stirring the milk too much after adding the rennet - I stir no more than about 1 minute, or even less - often just 20 up and down swirls with the ladle. Other than that ... I'm running out of ideas, other than to keep trying other brands of milk. I'm assuming, given the length of time you mention, that your trouble is not tied to one particular bad batch of rennet. (By the way - what kind of rennet are you using? You may already have mentioned this; I tried to skim back over the posts, but may have missed it.)
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Have you considered allowing your culture to set longer (45-60 minutes) before adding rennet? That tends to firm the curd up quite a bit.
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I have been reading through all of the posts 1 more time thinking I might have missed something . So I have a few questions.
old goat, How long have you been using this culture ? And have you tried other cultures that are not related
When cultures get too old they stop working well to create enough acid and
Some cultures are so closely related that they can get a virus and stop working And even the new one will stop too if too closely realated
If all of the above is moot. Then I have 1 last suggestion , buy some organic raw milk and try that , Organic Pastures sells a good one. You will poop your pants at the gallon price . But it will rule out the milk completely.
getting great curds from raw milk is so easy that even a cave man can do it .
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1 other possibility is that it is possible to use too much calcium chloride above .02% by weight to the milk will stop gelling of the curd So for a litter of milk 1000 grams that would be 2 grams of calcium chloride
Sorry about the metric but it is way easier to do the math
There is about 3.8 liters per gallon so some where about 7.4 grams which equals .261 oz. by weight
If you do not have a scale that accurate let me know and I will weight out some water and tell you the volume .
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1 milliliter of water wheighs 1 gram and 1000 ml (1 liter) wheighs 1000 grams (1 kilogram).
A 1 x 1 x 1 meter container of water wheighs 1000 kilograms (1 ton).
Water freezes at 0 C and boils at 100 C.
And 1 calorie is the energy required to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water 1 degree C.
The metric system is great... ;-)
:-) Danbo
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Gregore: I think that it sounds like a lot of CaCl to add...
For one of my normal batches of 24 liters it would mean adding 48 ml of Cacl.
I normally add about 5-6 ml...
Do you mean 0.02 promille and not percent?
I might be wrong... :-)
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I think it was .02 by weight but I will look it up just to be sure.
I just threw it out there as I read that it can stop the gelling when too much is used , and I know I have been guilty of not measuring and more than 1 occasion , so I suspect others maybe too.
I too love the metric system being from Canada , but now I am trapped in a non metric country that is terrified of the metric system , even though they were one of the first countries to use metric money.
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I never really used anything else than the metric system - I might be a bit biased... ;-)
As a rule of thumb I use (up to) the same amount of CaCl as rhe amount of rennet.
:-) Danbo
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Looked it up again , Up to 1gram per litter of calcium chloride after that it lessens firmness of curd , but still continues to increase speed of K-casein shearing as the gelling and splitting are 2 seperate chemical events .
So I would suspect it might be easy to get close to or go over this amount when making small amounts of cheese .
1 gallon of cheese or 3.8 litters would be 3.8ml = .77 of a teaspoon
But I still think old goats first next move should be getting some raw milk and testing that ,as they are in Ca and here it is legal and easy to get in any tree hugger grocery store.
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I should add that commercially it is added at .2grams per litter .
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Thanks for checking up on it. :-)
The 0.2 ml pr. liter that is added commercially sound like the amount that I normally add in my own makes.
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Thank you for all the calculations, I'll carefully check out the amounts if I can get a scale that accurate. I use tsp. measurements. If too much CaCl stops the gelling, that could be the culprit. But, I haven't tried increasing that until these last few times.
This has been going on for about 2 years and all the goat milk makes good cheese. I have changed cultures, rennet, and even CaCl. I normally use liquid vegetarian rennet but tried some tablets. (I didn't think they really dissolved into the water completely. Left a lot of specs.) They didn't work either.
The one thing I haven't tried, for the reason stated, is raw milk. It seems to be the one thing left to try. If that works, then I know it is the milk. Raw milk is more expensive than goat milk around here, though. If I try this, I add no CaCL. Is that correct? I really had high hopes for the $2.97 milk.
I kind of have the feeling that it is a combination of problems. When I solve one, a different one rears it's head. I can't tell the difference, though.
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Now that I think about it, I did switch to liquid calf rennet for a while. Had to tell one of my fans she couldn't consume those cheeses. Also, I normally use Aroma B for a culture. It worked in the past.
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I would normally suggest to use the raw milk with About 1/8 tsp calcium chloride per 1 gallon . Seeing as how the winter is here the cows milk will not be as good as it is in the spring , summer .
But you have been having so much trouble with your setting that I think it should be as pure as possible so the unnecessary stuff is left out of the equation .
Hopefully this gets solved soon
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1 gallon of cheese or 3.8 litters would be 3.8ml = .77 of a teaspoon
I used a recipe that called for .5 tsp of CaCl, so that, while more than most recipes, shouldn't have been too much.
"1 gallon of cheese" in your quote, does that translate to "1 gallon of milk?"
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Yes sorry should have been 1 gallon of milk not cheese
And .5tsp is not too much
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So, I was at The Beverage People in Santa Rosa today. (Great place, I highly recommend it.) I brought this up with them, again. They said that this is common in our area and that only Strauss Dairy or raw milk seem to work on their own. Some suspicion that Clover (high quality dairy) switched to higher pasteurization temps. some time ago. They recommend adding one tablespoon dry milk powder per gallon. They are even including it in some of the kits.
Has anyone ever heard of this?
It gives me some hope because if I have to use Strauss, that will cut my cheese making in half.
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I have used 1 gallon raw and 2 gallons of pasteurized mixed together with a little calcium chloride
And I get a reasonable set . It's not cheap because it is all organic
Next time I am at the groceries store I can check on the brand if you like.
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Gregore, thanks but I'll just use the brands I can get here. You say you get a "reasonable set" with that mixture. Is that a clean break with nice clear whey? I might try that blend for my next cheddar.
I just tried a gallon of organic milk with a tablespoon of dried milk. I got very little separation. This recipe calls for 1/4 tsp. cacl and 1/8 tsp rennet. It's kind of a mess but it is staying in the molds and both solids and whey are draining. I'm thinking it will drain and ripen just fine. Might be closer to cream cheese than fromage blanc but... what the whey? Who cares if it tastes good?
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Yes that mix gives me a good firm set and fairly clear whey. Nothing compares to all raw.
I think I read in the first of the 2 PDF books that I linked to recently in the labrary section , that some commercial makers add it but I forget exactly why . I think it might be for yield and not curd firmness , wish I could remember .
I have been reading so much lately that it all blends together.
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I was in bind, no goat milk, no raw milk and no Strauss available. So I tried mixing dry milk powder into the organic milk that I bought. It helped but didn't really work. In fact, I think the curd held more liquid than cream cheese. I feel like I'm missing something really basic. Cow's milk is supposed to be easier to work with than goat, no?
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But is the goat milk raw? If so, you are comparing apples to oranges when using p/h cow's milk.
I tried using vegetarian rennet in a couple of different forms, just in case I had some vegetarians take my cheesemaking class, but I never had success with it when using storebought milk. It worked okay with raw milk, but did not result in the same nice firm curd that I get when using calf rennet.
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The goat milk I use is not raw and it works just fine. The vegetarian rennet fails just like the calf rennet did in pasteurized cows milk.
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Ok first post......not getting a good set from cows milk ( if rennet is ok) is usually due to pateurization temp being too high. For example if using 72C for 12 seconds but the milk mass is relatively large to cooling capabilities you can get set problems. There are companies that pasteurise drinking milk at 76 C which will give a set problem. By the way LPT should be for 1 hour if the temp is 60C 30 min for 63C....
Hope that helps
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Very few companies are doing that, apparently. :-[
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I recently used Straus milk for a class on feta style cheese. I have never had any trouble with that milk. But... The milk was dated 12 days out from the day I purchased it. It did not set. I know it was not the rennet or the starter bacteria, or any sanitizer in the equipment. I brought out vinegar, and we made sort of a ricotta instead with one batch, and the other we left to coagulate enough that we could scoop it after about 1.5 hours.
In discussion with Gianaclis Caldwell (author of "Mastering Artisan Cheesemaking"), she gave some possible causes:
1. Fall and winter milk contains more plasmin and other enzymes associated with plasmin. Plasmin breaks down proteins. In the milk, it breaks down the casein. If the fresh milk from the fall and winter has problems coagulating, and you rule out the rennet and pH, then it is likely this problem.
2. Milk older than a few days is going to suffer some protein damage from cold storage bacteria not destroyed during pasteurization, the psychrotrophs. It won't be dangerous, most likely, but is harder to get a good coagulation from.
A further response from her indicated that just using more rennet is not going to make much difference...
Straus milk is relatively standardized and combined from several dairies. So it does not seem like it would be just a "fall and winter" problem, but could be....
I checked with Straus about their pasteurization process, and they use 173-175 degrees F, for 15 seconds. Perhaps it was hot enough to denature some of the proteins.
I am thinking that it is milk a few days past when I should have bought it to use in class, or that there may have been some less than optimal storage along the way.
My plan is to buy the milk on the same day it is delivered to the store, and to make a test batch at home first. I will test starting pH and if it shows elevation about 6.65 then I will use extra starter and extra rennet due to the milk showing signs of being "seasonal".
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One more thing, also from Gianaclis, is the flocculation test for coagulation...
1. Mix 24ml cool water (I think make sure it does not have chlorine or chloramine) with 1.25ml double strength rennet, or 2.5ml single strength rennet.
2. Warm 1/4 cup milk to 92 degrees F in a clear glass measuring cup
3. Add 10 ml of the rennet mixture to the warm milk while swirling the cup
4. Time the seconds it takes for small flocs to form on sides of the measuring cup
5. If it takes more than 20 seconds, you have a problem
6. If a problem, using another 1/4 cup of milk, add 1/8 tsp of calcium chloride to the warm milk, the another 10 ml of the rennet solution. If flocculation time improves, then add CaCl to the milk for your make.