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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Rennet Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: OzzieCheese on May 05, 2017, 11:45:44 PM
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Well, today is the day. The great Kefir experiment. Just so everyone is aware I'm not following David Asher's recipe as there are too many variables. I am, however using Kefir as the primary ripening 'culture' with one adjustment. Because there is no way of telling what the behaviour of my Kefir will look like I am adding 1/2 the amount of my Flora Danica. Please no hate mail ! I have sound reasoning behind this
1. the variability of Kefir.
2. the predictability of the FD. I still want to get to bed before midnight (its 9:30am at the time of writing.
3. Using my 'Malembert' recipe and pH markers I can keep a close eye on the ripening.
4. I'm not using raw milk and therefore can't rely on it providing the necessary help that David's methods rely upon.
5. I'm enjoying Kefir - tastes wonderful - an I'm looking forward to whet there cheese turn out like.
Right lets get to it .... 8)
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Basic Recipe
8 litres Non-Homoginised Guernsey milk
600 mls cream (from the same dairy)
1/2 Cup Kefir
1/2 of Pinch F.D
I measured the pH of the Kefir and it was 4.56 and the milk started off at 6.62.
Added the FD and Kefir at 32 DegC.
After I mixed the Kefir and the milk together the pH was 6.55. This was expected and seeing as the previous make I added the rennet at 6.67 I'm not too concerned about the rennet not setting the milk. I'm still leaving the milk ripen out the full 90 minutes but seeing as the pH is already on the down side I'll set the rennet back to 2.5mls as I'm still wanting the coagulation time to be a good hour to ensure maximum fat capture and nice curds.
I'll add photos....
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For all those waiting for photos. Here Y'ar
Several things different with this one.
1. Because of the starting pH the floc. time was only 8 minutes - even with reduced rennet.
2. The curds were softer at the beginning but firmed up during the stirring. I'm assuming because the curd set so quickly the structure was not quite set.
3. Stirring released quite a lot more whey than usual. all these probably because of the starting pH. Not that it was a problem, but need to make sure that stirring is not too vigorous.
4. Settling in the molds is faster. Again, I'm assuming here that this is all because of the same starting pH.
I would appreciate any comments regarding my assumptions.
the photos
1. The Players in this game.
2. My Stage.
3. Curd cuttin' time. BTW this was cut according to the Floc multiplier formula, not the '1 hour' in the recipe.
4. Curds on Cutting.
5. After 15 minutes stirring
6. Filled molds.
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Looking good, Mal - eager to hear how the taste turns out.
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I am always amazed out how your curds come out. How do you keep them so robust and creamy?
Sam
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I know I was only going to change one thing for this but, that just wasn't possible. For example.
1. 2.8mls instead of 3.5 set the curd in 8.00 minutes instead of 11.5 minutes
2. the pH even before ripening was .2 from what the milk normally starts at.
3. The Curds were soft but, I think drained reasonably well.
4. I forgot to add the P.C into the milk - so I'll have to spritz them when the salt has been absorbed. I gave a light spritz this morning and, will repeat that in a couple of days.
The cheeses also have a slightly funky smell - not unpleasant but, it will definitely carry to the final cheese.
Here are the photos.
1. After the overnight rest
2. same - uncovered.
3. 1 teaspoon of salt each - and this is enough for top - bottom and the sides.
4. close up of what the salt should look like when covering the cheese.
5. Boxed up and ready for the 12 DegC fridge first stage of maturing.
The cheeses are not that sweet 'rosy' smell and that concerns me a little though, we'll see this experiment to its conclusion.
-- Mal 8)
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I am always amazed out how your curds come out. How do you keep them so robust and creamy?
Sam
Hi Sam, when first cut, I treat the curds like soap bubbles - gently lifting from the bottom to the top - and only when the curd edges start to get a slightly rounded look do I get a little more vigorous. But still you have to be gentle with them. Stir too hard and fast especially with Cams you just end up with milky looking porridge.
Mal
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Thanks Mal,
I will give it a try.
Sam
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Just a bit of an update for this cheese.
There is something to be said about the use of the current DVI cultures and molds - Predictability. These cheeses have gone through an interesting set of smells.
When first placed in the 12 DegC fridge there was a particularly sharp acidy aroma - and I'm going to assume this was caused by the Kefir still fermenting. It wasn't a particularly bad smell but not what was expected. BTW I have had to add the PC Mold via a spritz bottle.
After about 7 days there was a noticeable change in the odour to a sweet acidy one, my first impression was Pineapple (wife said passionfruit) but there was still no mold and for the record I didn't make a wash as David suggests to encourage the white molds but neither did the Geotrichum show up either.
Its now approx 3 weeks since I made them and the PC showed up in about 12 days to the point where I would normally place them in the Cooler 4DegC fridge, wich is where they are now.
The covering is nicely established and the has now got a mushroomy smell as I previously would have suspected though, they are still quite firm. All in all I'm still hopeful for a nice cheese at the end.
Weeks 4-6 are usually when the softening usually starts so I'll keep you all posted. Here is a Pic of how they are progressing.
8) CheeseOn
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They look very attractive.
Very keen to find out how this works :)
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Thank you for posting this "project". I am about to try to make some camembert using kefir to culture the milk and (hopefully) provide the geotrichum.
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So this is at the 7 week mark.
I'll try to explain what I think the issue is with this cheese.
For reference my normally made Malemberts would have been ready by now.
Maturing notes:
These cheeses were matured at the temps as my normal ones, 12 DegC for the initial molding up stage and 4DegC for the remained of the process. There was a distinct lack of odour - and this is important. As ammonia compounds are a by product of the pH being raised by the action of the outside white mould. Too much of course make the chesses really strong but not enough indicates the maturing action is not progressing.
The first image shows how far the maturing process has reached in 7 weeks.
As you can see there is a open core to the cheese 1/2 way in.. normally this would have been matured all the way through.
I suspect that there is not enough culture in the Kefir to support the full maturing of the cheese. The pH of the cheese just after removing from the hoops was 5.6 and I suspect this was not low enough to provide the initial conditions for the mould and why it took so long to show up.
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The rind development was very billowy and came away from the cheese and caused dryness next to the cheese that prevented proper mould development. I feel that another two week would have been necessary to have the ripening reach all the way to the middle.
Taste:
as the cheese hasn't got the culture working as my normal ones then , the taste is quite bland slightly creamy and needs more salt. I salted them the same as always but I feel that brining these styles might have been better instead of hand salting.
The taste is not unpleasant but it is less complex than I would have hoped because of the Kefir.
Was this a failure ?? Not at all and there are things I would adjust before adjusting the cultures.
1. Still use Maleny Milk but don't add the cream.
2. Brine the cheeses instead of hand salting.
3. add the PC to the milk and not spritz. There is insufficient GC in the Kefir to support it creating the necessary mould layer.
Remembering here that David does say in his book the methods and recipes require the intact diversity of Raw Milk. The other fuzzy area is not the amount of Kefir added but how mature was the Kefir David was adding. I will be sending David a link to this page and hopefully get some advice.
on the Kefir side of the equation - my family are now enjoying a daily Kefir drink, so even if I don't make my Malemberts with Kefir I will still be drinking of it bounty.
CheeseOn 8)
Mal
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Interesting results; thanks for the update. It almost looks a bit dry - ?
I'm guessing you will age out the rest for another two weeks, and try again?
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Hi Mal,
Seems to me like the kefir dropped the pH too much too quickly.
Have you considered ripening with half the amount of FD for the usual time then adding in the Kefir but using your pH meter only add enough to get the usual pH drop. I am sure David Asher would cringe at my scientific approach. But it seems to me that it is easy to add too much of the Kefir and get too large a pH drop that will then affect things latter.
The other approach would be to make a FD mother culture, add half the amount recommended then add Kefir to get the required pH drop then rennet?
Thoughts? Again possibly a overfly scientific approach.
I have been watching this process with interest as I too can't by raw milk but would like to be able to add extra diversity of culture to the cheese to give it more bang, but don't like the unknown of using Kefir.
Cheers
Mathew
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Hi Mal,
I made kefir cams before with inconsistent results, 1 batch went hard, 1 batch was like yours, they went gooey in the end (but tasted a bit funky), and 1 batch went soft and gooey in time.
I think it all depends also on the kefir strain and how strong it is, I experimented with upto 12 days old kefir. Older kefir tend to have more potent cultures, mould and spores but it also give more funky taste.
All in all, after a few experiments I went back to DVI. ;D
I still drink the kefir though and it makes good face mask too!
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After the initial pH drop from adding the Kefir there wasn't enough to carry the process on. There is still plenty of moisture in the cheese as the mould are still working - just very slowly - as I can see the condensation inside the ripening containers.
I tested the pH of the cheese still in the containers and although they are just below 5.5 and the pH of the harder centre is still about 5.2, I don't think there has been the expected raising of the outside from say 4.7 back up to the mid 6's to allow for the
resolubalisation of the calcium (hence centres are not gooey).
The other point well made by AnnDee is that the cultures in the Kefir are at unknown quantities and concentrations and my Kefir was barely 48 hours old and David Asher doesn't really give any guidelines on how mature his Kefir is.
We're still eating the cheese as there technically nothing wrong with it -it just could be better.
CheeseOn 8)
-- Mal
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I'd have to agree with the unpredictability of the cultures active in the kefir.
Here's my theory: If the lactic acid bacteria in the kefir outcompete the yeasts, you end up with a higher yield of lactic acid for the molds to feed on later. However, if the yeasts become more prominent, then you might have a lower lactic acid content even at the same pH.
If that truly is the case, you can try pre-ripening with FD to a certain pH target before adding the kefir to bias the cultures towards one end of the spectrum.
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All I can say for sure is that kefir left in a jar (with a lid) for 6 months in the cheese cave will select for a culture that thrives in the coldness of a cheese cave and gives every cheese a odd bitter like after taste , and it shows up on a cheese as young as 2 weeks old .
My wife now has to store her kefir in the fridge .
Just a warning
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Thanks for the warning. I too have my Kefir in the fridge. I ferment overnight and only 500mls and just consume that during the day so it wont sit and take over my cave. I'm going back to cloth bandaging my Cheddars so I'll keep your advice in mind.
Well, The first cheese - my Malemberts - were, sadly, a flop. I left the remaining cheese to mature but it was not to be. Instead, the white mold rind just got thinker and the inside paste just got funky. It did soften and a small taste was as it was 2 weeks age - disappointing.
Yep- I'm calling this one a Bust. Going back to DVI cultures - not lazy just that it works and like the results.
-- Mal
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I am beggining to wonder if kefir has too many living things in it to make really good cheese .
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I tried making camemberts a couple of years ago using Kefir and raw milk a number of times and saw a lot of the above effects. Late maturing, funky taste, never really any ammonia developing or a sense of paste.
I assumed it was because I didn't know what I was doing but I'm going to try making some Malemberts this year using DVI cultures and hoping it's going to be a bit different :)