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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cheddared (Normally Stacked & Milled) => Topic started by: Alex on April 02, 2010, 03:16:33 PM
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I am trying to make a cheddar right now.
1) 9.5 liters raw cows milk @ 22 deg C + annatto + 10 ts of buttermilk left for 45 minutes.
2) heated to 30 deg C, added 12 drops veg rennet (1 drop/1 liter of milk, manufacturer's instruction).
Flocculation took 58 minutes. Now I'm in the 116 minutes additional time (x3).
Just before the Chaddar, I made successfully 2 Cams from the same milk/buttermilk/enzyme.
Any opinion will be appreciated.
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One drop per liter seems a little low to me, but I don't use veg rennet. I use 1/2 tsp of calf rennet for 5 gallons. If it hasn't floculated after 20 minutes, I would add another equal dose of rennet.
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This is my routine procedure with same ingredients. Letting the milk with the buttermilk to acidify, is not routine, relativley at low temp - 21 deg C. As I mentioned, a couple of hours before, I made Cams with the very same ingredients but without acidification and at higher temp. Everything went fine.
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Well, after 174 minutes of coagulation I cut the coagulum, the curds were fine. Proceeding with the recipe I came to the cheddarring, and after 75 minutes of testing acidification by heating and trying to stretch a piece of curd, I gave up, the curd didn't stretch. It was well after midnight, because of the very long coagulation period, so I put the cheese in the press. Now it is drying, it looks good, it feels good. Although it might not be a genuine Cheddar, I am sure it will be eaten. Today or tomorrow I'll wax it.
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... I came to the cheddarring, and after 75 minutes of testing acidification by heating and trying to stretch a piece of curd, I gave up, the curd didn't stretch.
I use veggie rennet a good bit becuase I can get it locally. Double strength though. That is a long time.
You don't stretch Cheddar curds they will break but they don't stretch. Mozzarella and the pasta fillata cheeses stretch though. Cheddar curds will bounce however! Nice looking cheese though.
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Debi,
It's mentioned in one of my recipes to make an acidity test (I don't use pH meter) by placing a piece of curd into 82 deg C water and trying to stretch. This should occur at right acidity level. It's some primitive way but it should work I believe.
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Debi, the old test for when to stop cheddaring is to take a hot iron and put it on a slab of curd, and then remove it. Based on the number of strands, how long they stretch, etc, you can gauge when the acidity is right. This method is rather reliable when done by an experienced cheesemaker. Putting curd into a microwave or hot water and testing for stretch is also not a bad way of doing it. You want to stop cheddaring right at that point, when the micelles have degraded somewhat but not completely - hence the stretch. If your cheddar curd doesn't stretch, acidity may be too low (pH too high), or maybe milk is off or rennet is old? It should stretch by the time you salt.
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Linuxboy, I use the same milk and ingredients all the time. The unusual step here was letting the milk with the buttermilk to acidify. May be it got spoiled? That might cause the long flocc time?
My Mozz is stretching very well:
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That's what I call stretching, Alex!
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Alex.
may be i get something wrong, but i never saw cheddared slabs stretching like a mozz. Is it possible?
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Pavel I think that you and may be others were misslead on this thread, as two issues have been mixed.
I think Debi didn't understand my acidity check of the Cheddar. She thought I am trying to stretch the curds like Mozz and other pasta fillata. So I brought some pictures of stretching Mozz. May be John will be willing to delete some pics Just for preventing confusion with the main subject.
I am still not sure whether the 45 minutes rippenning with the buttermilk was necessary and right or not.
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Alex,
I use clabber cultures for all cheeses i make. And i use microbial rennet. In a case of cheddar i found out that 45 min of rippenning time is that minimum that allows me to get propper pH level. With one of my culture i wait for an hour. Less rippenning time force me to increase cooking or cheddaring time to hit that pH point.
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This is the advantage of using flocculation and not clean break. Even when there is something off in the milk (I would suspect Ca or solids here) you will still get good curd out as long as you adhere to your multiplier.
Alex,
That is a reliable test for pH, assuming all things equal. In a season change, feed change etc, it may not reflect pH levels well. This is perhaps why it didn't work this time.
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Francois,
I can say that the milk I use is a milk with almost the same properties all over the year. Because all the milk produced in Israel, is transferred to the dairies strictly and only through the "Milk Council", all the cows are Holstein's, all the farmers feed them the same food and no grazing. Everything is "engineered" in a way that the milk properties will be affected as little as possible all over the year.
Pavel,
As I use store bought butter milk (containing Streptococcus Lactis, Streptococcus Diacetylactis, Streptococcus Cremoris), same brand all the time and I never let the milk ripening with the culture, I was wandering if it was correct to do that for the Cheddar.
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Alex,
i'm far not an expert. I'm still searching for my own way to make cheddar :)
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Alex, I have experienced the same issue with Tommes I made in January which had the exact same start recipe as your cheddar (expect 1-2 degrees warmer and used pasteurized non-homogenized milk which I suppelmened with CalCl). Someone later told me to double the rennet which solved it in the next few attempts though I haven't opened these newer attempts so I don't know how it affected it. The result of the tommes was a bit too flaky/brittle and they had a crack in the center. Linuxboy says that this texture relates to an overly long of ripening. Perhaps it's better to use more rennet rather than ripening for too long?
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Thanks Y, that's the way I'll act in the future.
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The ripening time that LB refers to is BEFORE rennet. The starter bacteria become too aggressive with their acid production which ultimately leads to cracking and flaking. You do want your curd to set in a reasonable time so you can drain it to limit further acid production.
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Makes sense Sailor, though doesn't it continue to acidify even after the addition of rennet? Or, does the acid buildup uccors faster in the whey than the curd so one should just focus on draining?
How would you get the curd to set if it doesn't do so under the recipe? Add more rennet the next time around? Is there a point beyond which the starter has acidified so much that it inhibits the rennet's effectiveness?
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The bacteria continue to produce acid thru curd set, cooking, washing, cheddaring, pressing, and even beyond. There are a few key points during a make when you can take control and make a big difference in the outcome of the final cheese. The amount of starter bacteria and the length of time for ripening set the stage for the rest of the process. Too much or too long, and the bacteria will produce too much acid too quickly. (that's a lot of "too"s) :o. That will throw the timing off for the rest of your steps along the way. That's why you can't blindly follow the times in a recipe book. You may have to "cook" quicker or take other steps to get things under control. Another key point is certainly draining. That is when you remove a lot of the available food source and slow acid production way down.
Rennet requires a little acid to work but if the curd set takes a REALLY long time, the bacteria can start producing a lot of acid. There are lots of reasons for a curd not setting well so search the forum and you will find several great discussions.
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That's good to know. At this point in the game I am developing a really good "feeling" for how to handle milk/curd to get what I want in forming cheese and already got a good process for feeling the production process for younger cheeses and lactic cheeses. This is training traditional artisanal style, no measuring of PH and such, like families all around the world used to do throughout history... (The magic of running out of buffer solutions :) )
As I do more hard and semi-soft, I must add to my "feeling repertoire" the sense of what's the right process and curd texture which will deliver certain textures months down the road. Boy this is fun. By the way, these days I take a log and do flocculation tests with spinning bowl to find out the right ripening and multiplier. I am currently trying to understand how to do soft moist small eyes curd for cheese like Morbier, any tips would be helpful!
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Francois,
I can say that the milk I use is a milk with almost the same properties all over the year. Because all the milk produced in Israel, is transferred to the dairies strictly and only through the "Milk Council", all the cows are Holstein's, all the farmers feed them the same food and no grazing. Everything is "engineered" in a way that the milk properties will be affected as little as possible all over the year.
Pavel,
As I use store bought butter milk (containing Streptococcus Lactis, Streptococcus Diacetylactis, Streptococcus Cremoris), same brand all the time and I never let the milk ripening with the culture, I was wandering if it was correct to do that for the Cheddar.
Tell that to the cows. They don't know they are supposed to be producign the same milk all year round and definately don't. Total solids fluctuates through lactation as does solid content.
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OK, I'll try to speak to the cows :-[, meanwhile I'll consider your information, thanks.
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Actually, working with the milk in Israel before myself I can attest to its ridiculous sameness year round. Even when the cows are allowed to graze, the fona and flora changes so little in this year-round subtropical country that these is little change in their diets or behaviors.
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Hey Alex, I'm having the opposite problem with my flocculation time for cheddar I was getting a set after 5 minutes!! I was using a recipe from a book and it is clear it is not correct! The book advices half a teaspoon to 4.5 L milk. Half a teaspoon is 50 drops! The advice on the bottle is 4-6 drops per L lets say 4 per L x 4.5 L equals 18 drops. I am of course making a stirred curd variety of cheddar. Can any one answer my question about multipliers? I have been informed that a set after 5 Min's is a 12x multiplier, and a set after 1 hour is a 1x multiplier. Therefore 1 multiplier is 5 minutes yes? So If I need a 3x multiplier for cheddar, and 50 drops is 12x, does the maths work like this; 50 drops divided by 12 is 4.16 drops x3 ( for cheddar ) equals 12.48 drops to every 4.5 L milk? Which is not far off the instruction on the bottle.I hear every body talking about PH levels this is clearly critical, again can any Enlighten me?
On the point about the sameness of Israeli milk, the only difference you may see is around Pesach ( passover ) when a month before and after passover ALL Israeli dairies switch from feeding wheat silage to feeding maize silage to abide by the strict food laws concerning leavened products. If one small piece of wheat would come in contact with the milk the whole days production would become Hametz ( forbidden )
Alex have spoken to you on a more personal note on our other thread Q
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The recipe may have been correc for the rennet they used. You have to adjust recipes bsed on YOUR ingredients. Rennet varies greatly from one type and brand to the next.
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you aren't kidding Debi. I used my new rennet I ordered from Dairy Connection (vs. junket-style liquid from the health food store) I used the 5 drops per quart from those instructions and got flocculation in less than 1 minute!!! I sure hope my colby doesn't get bitter. oh well. live and learn!
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Thanks for that guys,
So follow the instructions on the bottle and see how I go from there? So how do I accurately get to my 3x multiplier
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Yes alway go by the manufactures instructions not a posted recipe unless it specifically mentions a measurement for brand name item and you are using the same brand.
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Sorry to interject off subject, but that Mozz. stretching picture wowed me. Whats the secret? is it all in the ph? Previously I have had a few really good-stretching batches, and a number of failures. This forum is so addictive right now. I need to do other things...
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Yep, good milk and pH. In that pic, I would guess Alex has it at 5.1-5.2. You can get huge, huge strands right before it overacidifies.
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Sorry I got confused Alex. That's a great stretch! Maybe we should split this into to threads?
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Nitai and Linuxboy,
It should be a matter of pH, but as a matter of fact I don't know what the pH was as I don't have a pH meter. I just followed a recipe and may be had some luck.
Debi,
I agree, It is on my schedule to open a new thread, because although this is only the second time I follow this 30 min kind of recipe, but fortunately two consecutive successes in a row.
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I have never had a failure with the 30 minute recpe either. It is a mild almost flavorless cheese but quick and works well with basil and other herbs. It can also be pinched off and aged quite easily.
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Quentin,
You have to follow manufacturer's instructions about enzyme's doze.
Info about how to use the flocculation method, is described in Rennet Coagulated Cheese - Method #3 (http://cheeseforum.org/Making/Curd%20-%20When%20To%20Cut.htm#Rennet_Coagulated_Cheeses). The suggested floc multiplier for Cheddar is 3.
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Alex thanks
I have seen the light! I now understand the floc point. I more thing crossed off the need to know list. Can I know ask about PH levels and their Importance ?
Thanks for all your help Q
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Sorry, I can't help you with pH levels, because I don't use this data. Nevertheless, I know it's especially important in Cheddar and Pasta Fillata cheeses. There is lot of discussion of this matter on the forum, so please run a search for this topic.
Although I am not experienced enough, I try to stay on the primitive side of cheese making like in those old days when pH meters were not available. As for you, if you intend to market your cheese, you should use equipment to ensure consistency and repeatability.
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Thanks again Alex for your input,
I will try a search and see where it gets me. Quentin
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Debi did a chart with ph levels on it for various cheeses. Not sure where it is; buried either in the threads or maybe the library. Good luck finding it. :-\
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Debi did a chart with ph levels on it for various cheeses. Not sure where it is; buried either in the threads or maybe the library. Good luck finding it. :-\
Wouldn't mind a copy of that if anyone finds it. :)
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Found it here (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1310.msg9565.html#msg9565)
Scroll down.
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Thanks Alex for that.
As soon as my good old mum sends me some ph paper Ill start working to the levels Quentin
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Found it here ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1310.msg9565.html#msg9565[/url])
Scroll down.
Thanks!
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Im in the process of making my second batch of sheeps milk cheddar. My first batch was a failure, as it did not set at all. Since then I have changed my rennet to an animal rennet from a reputable cheesemaking suppliers, but I am having the same problem. I have added 50 drops to 10 L milk as per instructions, and after 45 mins I still had no coagulation. I have now added an extra 50 drops and still no coagulation. At what point should I give up waiting or can anyone suggest what might be wrong as I am at a loss on what to do now.
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The only things that I can think of is 1) is your thermometer for sure reading accurately, and, 2) have you tried adding a little Calcium Chloride? I have had issues with late lactation milks and sometimes the CaCl helped.
Good luck.
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I put another one together as well about a year ago and was looking for feedback and edits but nobody jumped on it. Maybe I'll try again.
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Thanks Debi, sooooooo usefull.
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Your welcome hon!
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Thanks, Debi. This is exactly the chart I've been looking for!
Christine
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That chart will be terribly useful. Thank you!!