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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Semi-Hard "Sweet" Washed Curd => Topic started by: ArnaudForestier on February 06, 2011, 05:31:47 AM

Title: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 06, 2011, 05:31:47 AM: Well, in the midst of making my first tomme, and...not very hopeful. Floc time was 25 minutes - used 2.75 ml animal rennet/4 gallons milk. Milk is creamline, vat pasteurized. Ton of globules on surface, I didn't want to agitate the milk too much prior to pouring it in. Globules didn't fully mix in.

And...all my plans to vat-inoculate with Myco, PLA went out the door. ARGH.

Hitting some targets - used 6 oz. MA 4001 primer culture, went in with milk of pH 6.61, after 30 minutes ripening, 6.42. Maintained 88F through rennet addition, and I was easy on the top stirring.

This is a running account. About to cut, heal, and stir/rise to 100F.

Not too hopeful. Esp. disappointed in spacing the secondary cultures; not sure whether to keep this really simple, do a simple rind (initial brine is 20% salinity, pH 5.25, 0.12% CaCl (est.)).; or wash with culture (planned on a 2% wash, with PLA, Myco, but that was in addition to the (spaced) vat inoculations.

On a positive note, Yoav, your roaster vat performs like a champ. The PID overshoots by about 2C, but maintains temp beautifully, as you said. I am looking into a way to program the temp offset, to really dial it in. Thanks again!

On the shortfalls so far, suggestions? Outside of making 4 gallons of yogurt, right now?
******

The pH dropped precipitously, to 5.77 by first press (did a pre-press under whey, per Pav's guidance). Seems too much starter, not enough rennet. On the other hand, the knit in the press is looking good and smooth....I hope, anyway; only going by the surface texture. I suspect the low starting pH may mean trouble in the texture, too much Ca+ leaked away.

Well, by the final press (15 min/30min/1hr), curd was at 5.0 - this, after a mere 1 1/2 hours in the press. Way too much LAB activity! Am guessing I will end up with a crumbly curd, among other issues.

Ah, well, first stab at anything other than fresh goat cheese cheese. Will carry this one out, but now that I've woken up, doing another one right away. Any thoughts, as always, appreciated.
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 08, 2011, 09:21:38 PM: Very pleased to report - at the risk of jinxing a good thing - tomme 2 went much, much better. A special thanks goes out to Pav, Francois and Sailor, for some serious help in structuring and troubleshooting these first couple of cheeses.

Made a MA4001 primer culture, crash cooled at pH 4.8 (missed the intended target of 5.0 by a bit).

Inoculated at 1%; Ripening was low and slow, milk went from 6.67-6.57 over an hour. Renneted at 3.1ml/4 gallons milk (also, 3.1ml CaCl addition), 17 min. floc, 3x multiplier. I had wanted to shoot for 1.5pt drop (6.52), but didn't want to leave the window open any longer, possibilities for contamination.

The only issue with the wash is that I had difficulty actually removing whey - my vat tops out at 18 qts., and until I improvised, dropped a china cap gently into the vat, I couldn't actually remove anything other than nominal amounts of whey. So, the washing process was a bit screwy, but I got there. Got to 100F over a few water additions, stirred 20 minutes, curd felt right, allowed to rest.

Pre-press went much better, as the curd was much more predisposed to knitting (not surprising, given the higher pH). Monitoring the drop in pH over the press, and Pav estimates it should be in range in about 6 hours.

Still got some mechanical openings in the rind, but overall, like night and day compared to the first venture. I think I'll do a main press at a higher weight (previously, only used 8.3 pounds throughout) to see if I can't get a better look, but overall, encouraged.

Making a 2% wash with Myco and PLA.
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: Buck47 on February 09, 2011, 12:15:43 AM: Congrats:

Have the same problem removing whey as four gallons is within 3/8 from the lip. What has been working for me is a clear plastic hose 5/8 OD and a Stainless steel kitchen colander set down in the vat as a pre filter.

I simply hold one end of the hose in the middle of the colander place the other end in vat on the floor and siphoned down so the curd is just under the whey. Simple and fast.

I've always been surprised in the morning how well the knit has progressed during the night. (And the PH drop

Been using 15 pounds for a four gallon make - hoop diameter of 7 1/8 inches.

Will you be posting photos?

Well done bud.

Regards: john
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 09, 2011, 01:51:35 PM: Thanks, John.

Well, I did say "at the risk of jinxing....", didn't I?

Ugh....humidifier died an instant death, just as I was putting the cheese into the cooler to bring it down to brine temp a bit. My other cheese - the "loser first" - has been air drying for 2 days at 55F/72%, and I watched the cooler go down to 50%.

The humidifier sounded like it was shorting, buzzing, during operation. Took it apart, air-dried everything, checked all connections, and...nudged the fan. Came back to life. Not an electrician, isn't there a weird situation, where the rotor brushes stop at the wrong place? Anyway....the old "hit it with a wrench" was key. ::)

That, and my pH meter (Yoav, you'll appreciate hearing this ;D), decided to make this previously sanguine newbie raise serious doubts about the make, an easy thing to do to begin with. After a pre-press/knitting that went very well (pH 6.54), and into the press for its initial round of 15/30/60 min. flips, the pH decided to plummet - 5.56 by the time the 1:45 process was through. Into the main press at 20 lbs for a mere two hours and, testing a separate testing sample curd, got to 5.20. I calibrated and re-calibrated 4, 7, tested again, and confirmed the reading. Rather than risk a repeat of a too-low pH cheese, I crash cooled the wheel.

Totally bizarre. Pav thinks, I'd say rightly (as usual), the pH meter is haywire. I am stumped. A later reading, after 2-point calibration, showed the wheel had a pH of 5.17 - which would make sense, that after cooling for a couple hours, the 5.20 would drop a little, but not as dramatically. However, I'm really suspect on the accuracy in general.

I dropped the 4.1625 lb wheel in a 20% whey brine, going to 15 hours.

Yep, once its out of the brine, I'll snap a couple photos of both this cheese, and the first, impoverished cousin. Thanks again, John, for the well wishes (and for your earlier helpful PM on tomme recipes).

And thanks to Pav and Francois for their continuing expertise and assistance.

Paul
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: Boofer on February 09, 2011, 03:17:06 PM: Quote from: ArnaudForestier on February 09, 2011, 01:51:35 PM
the pH meter is haywire. I am stumped. A later reading, after 2-point calibration, showed the wheel had a pH of 5.17 - which would make sense, that after cooling for a couple hours, the 5.20 would drop a little, but not as dramatically. However, I'm really suspect on the accuracy in general.
Maybe there's a special handshake, dance at midnight, or something to understand how to properly use the pH meter. This morning my ExStick 100 once again teased me. With a starting measurement of 84F/6.61 I added my cultures. Some 45 minutes later the reading was 89F/6.85. Now I can understand the climb in temp as the pot settles in to the target temp, but the pH climb? What gives? Seems like every time I do a make I can count on this rise in pH. Is it real, or a head-fake? It's got me stumped. Wait, let me see if I can hit that wall over there....

Quote from: ArnaudForestier on February 09, 2011, 01:51:35 PM
I dropped the 4.1625 lb wheel in a 20% whey brine, going to 15 hours.
Man, how'd you ever get out to the 4th decimal? Some scale you've got. ;)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 09, 2011, 04:06:20 PM: Quote from: Boofer on February 09, 2011, 03:17:06 PM
Quote from: ArnaudForestier on February 09, 2011, 01:51:35 PM
the pH meter is haywire. I am stumped. A later reading, after 2-point calibration, showed the wheel had a pH of 5.17 - which would make sense, that after cooling for a couple hours, the 5.20 would drop a little, but not as dramatically. However, I'm really suspect on the accuracy in general.
Maybe there's a special handshake, dance at midnight, or something to understand how to properly use the pH meter. This morning my ExStick 100 once again teased me. With a starting measurement of 84F/6.61 I added my cultures. Some 45 minutes later the reading was 89F/6.85. Now I can understand the climb in temp as the pot settles in to the target temp, but the pH climb? What gives? Seems like every time I do a make I can count on this rise in pH. Is it real, or a head-fake? It's got me stumped. Wait, let me see if I can hit that wall over there....

Quote from: ArnaudForestier on February 09, 2011, 01:51:35 PM
I dropped the 4.1625 lb wheel in a 20% whey brine, going to 15 hours.
Man, how'd you ever get out to the 4th decimal? Some scale you've got. ;)

-Boofer-

I realize now I forgot to do the animal sacrifice before I started, so the gods were really, really peeved. :o

4 digits...lol...never been really good at maintaining proper significant digits. Uh, that would be 4 lbs., 2.6 ounces. 4.1625 divides a bit easier into the brine calculation stuff... ;D
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: Buck47 on February 09, 2011, 04:15:53 PM: Quote from: Boofer on February 09, 2011, 03:17:06 PM
Quote from: ArnaudForestier on February 09, 2011, 01:51:35 PM
the pH meter is haywire. I am stumped. However, I'm really suspect on the accuracy in general.
Maybe there's a special handshake, dance at midnight, or something to understand how to properly use the pH meter. This morning my ExStick 100 once again teased me. What gives? Seems like every time I do a make I can count on this rise in pH. Is it real, or a head-fake? It's got me stumped. Wait, let me see if I can hit that wall over there....

Quote from: ArnaudForestier on February 09, 2011, 01:51:35 PM
I realize now I forgot to do the animal sacrifice before I started, so the gods were really, really peeved

Man, how'd you ever get out to the 4th decimal? Some scale you've got. ;)

-Boofer-

I'd like to take this opportunity to offer a special thanks to you two guys for saving me from the horrors of PH meters.

At times it seams like half the post on this forum have to do with problems arising from cheese making and the other half of the postings are in regard to how do i get this #@*&# meter to work?

$200.00 will buy a lot of milk in my neck of the woods.

Like someone said "I can eat my cheese mistakes - but I can't eat a back stabbing PH meter" - author unknown.

Regards: john
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: Buck47 on February 09, 2011, 04:57:28 PM: A unreliable, unnamed source tells me, do to a plummeting drop in sales attributed to ongoing user frustrations brought on by the continuing difficulty in using there product. Extech is coming out with a new sales promotion.

Extech Waterproof / Refillable pH Meter

You can trust Extech
"We don't miss"
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 09, 2011, 05:09:21 PM: LOL - I'm holding off on the pupicide, for now, John. I contacted Extech's technical support, and awaiting a response. Will hope for something substantive shortly, as this uh, basically blows.
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 09, 2011, 06:26:36 PM: Second tomme is out of the brine and drying. Some early pics of both cheeses (sorry for the quality).

First tomme, after drying for a couple days:

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/DSCN0291.jpg)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/DSCN0293.jpg)

Second, just finished brining, in drying phase:

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/DSCN0292.jpg)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/DSCN0294.jpg)

Still more openings than I'd like, but learned a lot with this second cheese. Not the least of which is "feel," as Yoav and many others talk about - I think next time, I'll knock off the stir/rest at 100F sooner; distinguishing "slightly rubbery, slightly firm" is something I'm still figuring out. Shooting for a better knit, so knocking off when the curds aren't quite so cooked, and improving my pre-press technique, will, I hope, allow a better knit.
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: Buck47 on February 09, 2011, 07:26:21 PM: Your knit on photos 3 & 4 look very close to what I'm getting on my Tommes. If I remember correctly Pav mentioned in one of his post - this was acceptable. It's all a mater of degree - but from what I can see in the photos these should be within range. Pav can give the definitive answer, but for your first two cheeses -- I'd say "ya did good"

BTW: did these have a crusty feel when removed from the brine?

Regards: john

Check out the photos in this posting Reply #58 http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1591.msg29510.html#msg29510 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1591.msg29510.html#msg29510)

Pav's comment on Reply #59 on: May 04, 2010

"That knit looks good to me; a tomme will have openings because it's not pressed. If you want to eliminate openings, you need to press it with more weight and/or with more heat."
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 10, 2011, 01:53:19 PM: John, now that I can feel the difference, the first cheese just feels "weird." Neither cheese had a crust coming out of the brine; the first, merely, is pretty rigid, stiff, while the second has a more "rubbery" feel to the wheel - it actually has some elasticity, as a wheel, if that makes sense. I plan to dry this second one for 2 days, but am monitoring it today (actually, mothering it), and if it seems ready, will begin the rind program sooner.

I am happier with the second, but not satisfied, yet. I did read Pav's comments (actually, have read and re-read just about everything he's said on tomme) about some mechanical openings being ok for the style, but I'm after making a beautifully smooth rind, at least. I will try like $#@ to deal with this pH issue, do a better job at the wash (like your idea on whey removal - I used a chinois, to good effect, but using a cup to remove it was tedious, and long - likely making the resting period a bit long, as well), and watching very carefully - I should say, feeling very carefully - for the proper matting consistency of the curd before starting the pre-press.

Pav or Francois, if you're watching, comments on anything you can see between these two wheels would obviously be greatly appreciated, as usual.

Also, Pav, specifically: I know this is impossible without being side-by-side with you during a make, but any way you can more tightly define the "feel" of the curd, during the stir/100F wash. e.g.,

Quote from: Pav
Hold at 100F until the curd is at the right texture. You can tell this by pressing a tablespoon of curd in your hand. It should mat together slightly and be somewhat firm.

I'm thinking that what I am doing is divorcing "mat together slightly" from "somewhat firm," meaning, I did take samples several times throughout the process, and though I would get what seemed like some matting, the curd was still "watery" and pretty soft; so I took it further, until a point where it just seemed to take on a more firm feel. I estimated this was the right "case hardening," but now wonder if perhaps cutoff should have been a bit sooner.

Sorry for the loquaciousness, just difficult to describe without being in person. If possible, are you able to provide any more sensory guidance as to feel, for cooking cutoff?

Edit: Sorry, just noticed. I'm doing my initial presses - 15 min/flip, 30 min./flip, 1 hr./flip, in the press, out of the whey - looks like you're doing your first 3 under whey. Correct?
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: Buck47 on February 10, 2011, 03:25:39 PM: Hey Bud,

Like you I'm "feeling" my way trying to understand the tactual nature of the curd at different points in a make.

What I've been doing is taking a small amount of curd in my hand and gently squeezing together - at first they don't stick to each other - but after 15 - 30 min a point is reached where they look like a poor knit. I can take my thumb and break them apart. So they do stick but not to the point they will not separate again. I don't know if I'm doing this correctly - so take what I've said with the knowledge I could change on the next batch as new information is gained.

Kind of hard to describe - a bit like trying to tell you what colors looks like via email.

For clarification I've posted Pic's of how I remove whey from vat during a make.

The small colander will sink to the top of the curds The hose is placed at the bottom of he colander and the whey is drained into the shotgun can on the floor.

The curd can then be washed, pressed, or removed from vat and placed into the mold left of vat.

The cheese cloth is placed around the curd in the mold along with the follower, the mold placed back into the vat and the whey returned to the vat and weight applied to the mold.

Simple and very fast with almost no temp drop.

Hope this helps. Regards: john
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 10, 2011, 03:38:52 PM: Hi John, that's actually pretty close to what I'm doing now (with the exception of your siphon hose - will do, great idea). Two differences are that I'm using my hands to first press the curds under the whey, into a thinnish mat the dimensions of the vat; folding them over, doing it again, again, until in a square; then start forming into a rough wheel. This is per Pav, a conversation. It also gives me the chance to learn some better notion of "feel" (man, the difference at this stage between the first and second cheeses was very clear - this one folded over en masse, like a champ; the first, "eh.").

I then do what you do - take the whole thing, the rough wheel, and place it in my cheesecloth-lined mold, in the vat itself. The difference is that, placing the mold in the square vat, I have to pour whey on the mould to "cover" the curds. I avoided doing it all in a stockpot, as I didn't want to cool the whey down, but, uh, duh, again, pouring it over does the same thing. The short time in a stockpot, it's a great solution to just do the whole thing in a double-bath, as you have.

Edit: BTW, haven't given up on the pH meter. I'm still going to suspect poor technique on my part. Cleaned with dH20, re-calibrated, and am acquiring some Kim Wipes, and making sure I'm adhering to standard lab practice on the thing. We'll see.
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: linuxboy on February 10, 2011, 08:06:42 PM: Quote
Also, Pav, specifically: I know this is impossible without being side-by-side with you during a make, but any way you can more tightly define the "feel" of the curd, during the stir/100F wash. e.g.,

It should start out as soft, and then firm up and get smaller. In the end, when you squeeze the curds, they should be soft and pliable, yet aggregate together, yet break apart when you poke at them with your thumb.

I don't know how to describe it exactly. It should feel done :P
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: Buck47 on February 10, 2011, 08:58:26 PM: Quote from: ArnaudForestier on February 10, 2011, 01:53:19 PM

Edit: Sorry, just noticed. I'm doing my initial presses - 15 min/flip, 30 min./flip, 1 hr./flip, in the press, out of the whey - looks like you're doing your first 3 under whey. Correct?

Well not exactly, The photo showing 30 min press under whey was taken from the very first Tommes I made. I needed to do that to get a tight knit.

Since then I've become more adapt at knowing when the curd is ready ( What I've been doing is taking a small amount of curd in my hand and gently squeezing together - at first they don't stick to each other - but after 15 - 30 min a point is reached where they look like a poor knit. I can take my thumb and break them apart. So they do stick but not to the point they will not separate again. )

What I do now is press under whey (like in photo) for 5 min -flip & 15 min & flip. After the second press and flip the knit has been looking good. The next press & flip is 60 min and if the room is warm I leave out at ambient temp. If the room is cool I place the hoop and weight back into the vat - which by this time has been emptied of whey. The vat still has a water bath so I simply cover the vat with a bath towel and set the temp of the vat at 68 - 70F. I then complete my 60 min press & flip. The Tommie is left in the hoop overnight in the vat at 68 -70F till morning.

A one gallon salt Brine ( 2 pounds 10 ounce Canning & pickling salt) is made the same day as the make and is held at room temp ready for morning. I want the cheese and the whey brine the same temp.

Soak in brine 3 1/2 hour per pound of cheese ( 4 pound Tommie X 3 1/2 hour brine time) = 14 hours

Regards: john
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 10, 2011, 09:56:51 PM: Thanks, Pav and John. I think I am still taking the cook just a bit too far - not much, with this last one, but a bit too much. I'm going to use the primer I made a few days back, and do it again, this time, hopefully, with more mis en place in, well, place. ;D
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: linuxboy on February 10, 2011, 10:26:18 PM: The stirring and temp and curd size are about getting the right moisture level, and the ripening and timing are about the acidity. You need to get the acidity and the moisture-in-curd to coincide, which for tommes happens somewhere around 6.3, usually. The draining point and feeling of the curd has to do with getting those two to match up. Make a few, keep taking notes, not many other ways to learn. Even if you saw it in person, wouldn't be enough, have to get a feel for it on your own.
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 11, 2011, 06:59:42 PM: Well, 3rd time and everything great (with the exception of the curd wash - still having a $%$%$#34#(&^%$@ time removing whey...so I thought of something ....for next time: using a bread cooling rack and covering it with coarse plastic matting, swiping the vat side-to-side, securing to get a pool to draw from. I think this will work - the colander/chinois thing still didn't fly, for me).

Everything great....until ONCE AGAIN I got a radical pH drop after the pre-press. At cooking knockoff, I was at 6.5. By the time I had pre-pressed, gone through the first 1:45 hours on the initial (light) press, I was at 5.38. I calibrated and re-calibrated, even took the batteries out of the Extech per:

Quote
Hi Paul,

Thanks for your inquiry. Temperature over time will affect your readings. You can attempt to do a default reset of the meter by holding down all three function buttons simultaneously while counting to ten slowly. Then re-install the batteries and power on the unit. At this point rinse the electrode and proceed to calibrate the unit via ph7 buffer. If successful , move to ph10 or ph4. Hopefully this is successful. If the problem persists after this, if within 30 days from date of purchase, please return the PH100 to your distributor. If you have had the PH100 for more than 30 days but less than 1 year, please contact our Returns Department..

-and when I did a direct wheel measurement, I was at 5.20. This should please all the non-pH meters folks out there. :o

I've decided to just wrap my baby in a seedling mat and let her press at 25 lbs. for six hours.

As to this meter, I am about to use the Extech for a ceremonial fire ceremony.>:D
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: OudeKaas on February 12, 2011, 01:07:51 AM: Quote from: ArnaudForestier on February 10, 2011, 09:56:51 PM
I'm going to use the primer I made a few days back, and do it again, this time, hopefully, with more mis en place in, well, place. ;D

lol.

"don't f**k with my meez" - Anthony Bourdain
Title: Re: First tomme in the works.....quel bordel ici.
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 12, 2011, 02:20:15 AM: Quote from: Brandnetel on February 12, 2011, 01:07:51 AM
Quote from: ArnaudForestier on February 10, 2011, 09:56:51 PM
I'm going to use the primer I made a few days back, and do it again, this time, hopefully, with more mis en place in, well, place. ;D

lol.

"don't f**k with my meez" - Anthony Bourdain

Bourdain's king. Have you read his bistro cookbook - description of a customer complaining of....fat. On a ribeye? So priceless...and so close to home. ;D