Caldwell caerphilly recipe questions

[queijao666]

This is the next cheese I will be trying after mostly making moldy cheeses. I don't do pH testing as I do not have the equipment, so I have relied on careful attention to times and temperatures when using her book, which I have found to be excellent. However, in this recipe, there are a few points when I don't have these guidelines and I'm hoping others who have made this recipe can help me out.

During the Drain and Texture step, she says 'keep pot covered and curd temp at 92-94. Every 15 to 20 minutes, remove excess whey and cut bottom edge of curd pile, place trimmings on top of stack. Continue to remove whey and restack until curd pH is about 5.75.' This gives me no way of knowing how much time this might take, can anyone familiar with the recipe give me an idea of how much time this step should take?

For the pressing and salting stages, I'm assuming these are done at her usual 70-72 degrees, so that is how I hope that the first pressing of 1.5-2.0 hours will get to me to her target pH of 5.3, before the second salting and the longer pressing to close the rind. 12 t0 24 hours is a very big window for this second pressing lol, so I will go with increasing weight in small stages with the goal of closing the rind.

Any tips from those who have used this recipe that might help me despite not being able to assess pH?

[mikekchar]

My Caerphilly is based on Caldwell's and I've made it many times.  I don't really have time to type everything that I would like to, but I'll try to explain as best I can.

When doing a cheddared cheese, you are basically trying to get the moisture level and pH to your target point at the target time.  There are *many* ways to do it, so as you make these cheeses you can fiddle with different variables and get it exactly how you like.

Caldwell describes the cheddaring process as a *texturing* exercise.  It's actually very similar to making mozzarella.  Your job is to drain the vat at a relatively high pH and then you let the curds drain as the pH falls.  You cut and stack the slabs in order to get a little bit of weight on them, but it's also so that the proteins slowly align as it drains.  When you are done, the curds should look like poached chicken -- not just firm and white, but *also* it has striations in it -- just like poached chicken breast.  It's not as pronounced as string cheese, you should be able to see the layers in the curds.  If you pull a chunk off, it should pull off just like a piece of cooked chicken breast.  This is really what you are trying to achieve (and if you were not, then you could just put it in the press immediately like a tomme).

The big thing to realise is that curds at a high pH (for example 6.0) *flow* slowly.  When it hits about 5.3, it becomes fairly rigid.  It depends a lot on the moisture content, but it's actually amazing.  When you make other kinds of cheeses (like a reblochon, for example), if you take it out of the mold at a pH of 5.4 or so, it will "slump" -- it kind of gets squished and the sides will bow outwards.  If you take it out of the mold at a pH of about 5.3 or below, it will not change shape at all.  It's really incredible.

When cheddaring, we're *looking* for an extreme *slump*.  That's why we're draining it outside of a mold.  We want it to flow and stretch slowly over time, to produce that texture.  When it stops flowing and the stacks no longer merge together, then you know you've hit a pH of about 5.3.  Amazing as it sounds, it's actually pretty obvious when you've done it a few time.  I actually recommend making "cheese curds" (essentially making a cheddar but never putting the curds in the mold) -- it's great practice and since you eat the curds in a few days, you don't waste time on cheeses that aren't made well.

The place you *drain* the curds, before you start cheddaring is actually quite a bit more important than the finishing of cheddaring -- especially for a Caerphilly.  If you go too early or too late in cheddaring, the only real downside is that the cheese will be a bit more or less acid than you want.  It can be a problem for ageing a long aged cheddar, but for a short aged Caerphilly it really makes no difference at all.  But if you miss the moisture and pH targets at *draining*, then it won't develop the right texture in cheddaring.  Still not a bit deal, but it really is the much more important point.

I would say, don't worry about it so much.  Taste the curds before you drain -- they should still be sweet and taste like milk.  Then cheddar until it stops melding together and the whey just starts to get tart (I like to go just a bit past this as I like a more acidic Caerphilly).  Then just keep making cheese until you get it the way you like ;-)

[queijao666]

Great details, definitely helps. I've worried that taste is not really a good way to check where you are at, but I wish it was lol, I still do check my cheeses at various stages to see how sweet/tangy/sour it is getting.

It sounds like you think it is the stirring phase that is actually more important for the texturing, where it should pass her texture test and still be sweet, before I start the draining and cheddaring.

I think I've seen enough videos talking about that chicken breast texture to know what you mean, plus many years of cooking chicken. You are saying what I don't want is the soft squishy curds that would be more like what I'd want for a cheese that will settle in the form using only its own weight, the moldy cheeses I've mostly been making. Just to be sure, the goal texture is the moist chicken breast texture, by the end of the draining of the warm curd, before breaking into smaller pieces and doing the first salting. So the curds can still meld together with a bit of pressure, but I can also gently rip them apart? Or does that mean they are still too soft and I should wait until they are more firm?

I've had squeaky curds with a range of textures, some are very rubbery and I imagine would require much heavier weights at pressing, this is what I'd want to avoid, so in that case I'd stop the draining and start the salting before they are like a dry tough overcooked supermarket chicken breast. Right? For other cheddars, much firmer curds are more what is expected, but I didn't think this was really that kind of cheese but I could be wrong.

Most of the cheese I make is tangy, because its supposed to be or because that's how I like it, so I won't worry too much about acid in terms of flavor, but I want to get it right so I'm close in terms of texture. I'm curious about a moist crumbly cheddar type cheese lol, not sure I've really had something like that in anything other than a blue.

edit: Might as well get your take on another question about this cheese. My cheese cave is a box inside a small cooler, with a few ice packs, in the cool storage room mentioned in another post. Its a large concrete storage space, my own space being a small but open part of it. This makes temp and humidity pretty easy to maintain with consistency, but the only terroir there would likely be mildew, so not sure what sort of 'natural' rind the cheese would develop. I was thinking to just use an oil rub, probably with red pepper or something with a bite. I know you use these kinds of cheese caves as well, did you actually get a good white/brown mold, or what sort of rind did you try to achieve?

[queijao666]

Made the caerphilly yesterday, finished up today and its in the cave. Two gallon recipe, mostly following Caldwell although I used Jeff Hamm's notes and Karlin's recipe to help me with some of the times and pressing weights. I used MA 4002 and half the same amount of Flora Danica.

My milled curds were pretty squeaky and rubbery by the time they went into the press, but tasty, I probably allowed for a bit too much time for the 'cheddaring' phase. During that, I made large rough cheddars and used a ziplock bag with warm water on top to keep them warm, under the lid and over warm whey. I moved them from top to bottom about 3 times over the course of an hour or so.

I pressed at equal cheese weight for the first hour, flipping once, then about 4X cheese weight (full gallon jug) for another hour, and then at about 10-12 pounds over night. My scale isn't super reliable with me holding a pot of water so the weight was somewhere in that range, and the pot sat atop the cheese mold and follower. I flipped the cheese for another 6 hours of pressing at the same weight this morning, mostly to close up the rind a bit more. Room temp for all the pressing was 70-72. The rind isn't smooth but the cheese is dense and compact, I'd have needed heavier weights to make it smooth with my rubbery curds. During all the pressing the whey was clear, which is usually how I gauge weight for the softer cheese I mostly make. I brined the cheese for 37 minutes in 55F heavy brine, per guidelines of Caldwell based on the weight of the pressed cheese.

Totally not sure what to expect from the rind in my Coleman cheese cave, it probably has geo and blue in there from the other cheeses I made and aged in it. I will mostly be vigilantly watching for mildew and using vinegar to remove it, but otherwise just going to see what happens with it. Humidity in the box is 95 percent according to my little digital device, temp in cave is between 50-54F. I'm a bit worried about the mechanical cracks in the rind, I'm curious about anyone who has made semi hard cheese with less than smooth totally closed rinds. My cheesemaking friend in south america always just used a warm knife to smooth his excellent cheeses, the variety of which doesn't use heavy pressing and is a lot like a caerphilly in the making, but I thought I'd just see what happens first.

I'll probably cut it at three weeks, maybe a full month, as the point of making it is the shorter aging time, for me anyway.

[mikekchar]

Awesome.  Sorry about not replying to you before!  I had to think about it and then forgot.  I'm getting old :-P  Sounds like you did fine.

My press is in now way heavy duty, so I'm always worried about the rind.  I've found that if I press a little early, it will press more easily.  Also, if you mill the curds smaller, they will knit more easily to a certain extent.  But basically, it's all about pH ;-).  The tip that I haven't tried is to put the cheese into 30 C water and then repress.  Apparently that will often close the rind.

For aging, I *highly* recommend maturation boxes (i.e. food grade plastic boxes).  For every 500g of cheese you want about 1.5 liters of box space (I often do a little less).  You can maintain the humidity quite easily by wiping out the box every day.

As for the other question about what I think is most important...  That's a good question.  I think the draining pH probably is the most important for most cheeses because it sets everything up.  However, you need to have the curds at the stage that you want at that time.  So coagulation, cutting, cooking and stirring are what allow you to get your pH target with your curds in the right state.  After that, it's simply timing when you salt -- which is also super important :-)  But it's easier.  I'm still learning loads every time I make cheese!

[queijao666]

Oh yeah, each cheese gets its own box in the Coleman cave, which means fewer cheese but its a lot easier to maintain them in the conditions they want. So far keeping humidity and temperature within the guidelines has been pretty easy, I mostly played around in advance with various sizes of frozen containers or freezer packs to find out what was needed to keep the temperature at the right point, and having the room be very consistent has definitely helped. I'd love to buy a wine fridge but I think its great how pretty much anyone can figure out how to make a Coleman work for them for at least a few cheeses at a time.

I think if my caerphilly doesn't turn out as I hope, which to me would be too sour and crumbly, I might try it again but follow the recipes where the curd is left to drain and matt, without even the sort-of-cheddaring, I think that might explain how lower pressing weights can make for a more closed rind, the curds are probably less firm than what I ended up with. If I still press for as long as needed, gently so it can still acidify, the cheese should still reach the pH it needs to before the brining and cave. In this make I did add the two saltings per Caldwell, but not all the recipes add the salt in this way and use a much longer brining. I suppose I could spend a year trying out various approaches lol.

I almost wish I had tried the hot water bath for the rind before the cave, but if the cheese grows the right molds, it might not matter, I'm hoping for a nice moldy felt-like rind, as described by Caldwell.

[mikekchar]

Give Caldwell's tomme recipe a try.  It's exactly what you are thinking of.  You pretty much do the same thing you would for a Caerphilly, but you "pitch" the curds about 10 minutes before draining.  This means you allow them to sink to the bottom of the vat and mat together.  Then you gather them up as best as you can in the vat (under the whey) and transfer the "tomme" to the cheesecloth lined mold.  The reason these cheeses are called "tommes" is because the "tomme" is what you call the slab of curds after it has matted.  You then just drain the tomme at room temperature, flipping every 30 minutes or so.  You *can* do it without any weight, but it helps to to put the same weight as the cheese on after the first hour or so.  Without the weight you can sometimes get soft spots in the rind.  You press for about 4 hours (or whenever you hit whatever pH target you want -- it's pretty consistent, so if you make a few of them you can just go by timing.  The longer you press, the more acidic it will get).  Then you salt the cheese (either with brine or with about 2% of the weight of the cheese as dry salt).  You can control the moisture level of the cheese by how you cut the curds and how long you stir.

Tommes are quite a bit simpler than cheddars (i.e. a cheese where you cheddar the curds, including Caerphilly).  It is rumoured that Caerphilly was originally a tomme, but the cheddaring step was added when the government forced all the cheese producers to make cheddar in WWII.  After the war, the same producers just called their cheddars that were aged less "Caerphilly".  A few traditional producers came back, but by 1970, I think they were down to 1 and sometime in the 80's and 90's that number was 0.  There has been a resurgence of traditional Caerphilly producers in the last decade or so, but I don't think *anybody* knows exactly what the cheese was like before the war.  I suspect that the current Caerphilly is really a new style.

I've been making Caerphilly for my aged cheeses recently (when I can get the milk!) mainly because I like the added acid and the texture of the cheese.  However, I think my next make will be a tomme.

[queijao666]

Ha I didn't know that about 'tomme', that is definitely a cheese type I'm eager to try. Something I noticed is that her recipe is also extremely similar to some queso fresco recipes, cheeses which are then consumed young which is what appeals to me. I can't see the point of maintaining my little cooler cave for several months for one or at best two cheeses lol, I will just buy those instead and stick to making the stinky cheeses I really love more anyway. But I'd like to try tomme types with flavors and herbs, I made a great spicy havarti last year and it was super tasty despite only aging a month.

[mikekchar]

We seem to have the same thought process :-)  Here is where I described some of my first rennet based cheeses: https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,17583.0.html  I didn't know *anything* about aging, so lots of mistakes were made, but it was super fun.  My idea was to just make a tomme and eat it basically the next day like a queso fresco.  It was aswesome (but better after a week).  I was going to just extend my aging for 1 week at a time -- so age one for 2 weeks, then 3, then 4, etc.  However, I ended up aging cheeses for about 4 weeks.  This was a *great* learning experience because the early aging for natural rind cheeses is really crucial.  It was great to be able to make mistakes and not have to wait months to find out what went wrong.  I also learned a lot about the make process and how it affects aging.  Jim Wallace says that cheese making is all in the make and if you get it wrong, then aging is just damage control.  This is basically true as far as I can tell.  However, aging is an art unto itself.

I'm now quite comfortable with my early aging (still lots to learn, though).  I'm now aging cheeses out between 8-16 weeks (though only soft cheeses for the last 6 months since I can't get milk :-( ).  I'll probably keep doing that this year and then do some longer aged cheeses next year.  Probably not for everyone, but I've really enjoyed this way of learning.  One of the things I have discovered along the way is that I *love* fresh cheese (especially crescenza/stracchino).  I would say at least half of my cheeses are aged less than a month, just because I like that style.  It's been a real revelation.

[queijao666]

After 12 days in the cooler cave in its ripening box, temps between 50-55, humidity between 94-98, my cheese is showing a dusting of white powdery mold. It smells really cheddary and good. I've used a vinegar q-tip to dab at a few small spots of blue, but since the other cheeses in the cave are bloomy blue goat pyramids in their own box, I'm sure I'll keep seeing the blue. The white mold isn't fuzzy like on the cambozola, is it a different white mold? Or is it just because this is a much harder drier cheese? Any hints on the rind progression? I'm still only going to age it for a month max, so I don't expect a super thick rind, but I honestly don't know quite what to expect. I've mostly been concerned about mildew but so far no signs of it.

[mikekchar]

The white powdery mold is geotrichum candidum.  If you want, you can give it 1 wash with a 3% brine (wipe everything off) and the geotrichum will usually grow back stronger.  This also helps give you a better geo - blue balance.  It's a bit of a leap of faith, though.  If you wait too long, then the rind's pH goes up and you will likely get brevibacterium linens (red bacteria that makes a nice washed rind cheese).  12 days is a *bit* late to do the wash, so if you want to play it safe, just leave it.

In my experience, 5 weeks is a good time to start eating a tomme.  There is a surprising difference between 4 and 5 weeks, but after that the change slows down a bit.

Edit: you are doing a Caerphilly :-P  4 weeks is good :-)  It's usually a little more acidic and if you wait longer, it loses some of that acidic bite (due to the action of the geotrichum).  Also, at this point, don't worry too much about the rind.  You've done the important bit.  Once you've got good geo coverage, it will take care of itself (even if it gets some blue on it, it won't penetrate the rind).