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beginner question about cheese hardness

Started by eric1, January 15, 2023, 01:28:36 PM

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eric1

I've made my first several hard cheeses in the last couple weeks, especially wanting to experiment with my goats' milk before I dry them off in a week, and none of the cheeses I've made so far are as hard as I've expected.  My question is how hard should I expect a hard cheese to be after I've only just brined it and air dried it?  How much (if any) harder do cheeses get with aging?

paulabob

Every cheese is different.  What cheese type or types have you been making?

Also, wheel size and aging techniques factor into how much moisture loss there will be...

rsterne

#2
They dry out a significant amount with aging.... How much moisture they lose depends on the process used.... A natural rind loses the most moisture, and vacuum bagging virtually none.... Waxing loses a bit over time, and bandaging more, but less than a natural rind.... Smaller wheels dry faster (and age quicker), of course....

The procedure you use during the make has a huge effect on the moisture content.... The longer the multiple of the floculation (gelling) time the more moisture is trapped in the curds.... The larger the curds are cut, the more moisture.... If you want a drier cheese, cut the curds smaller and sooner.... The cooking time and temperature also has an effect, the longer and hotter the temperature the drier, but of course you cannot exceed 104*F with a Mesophilic culture, you must use a Thermophilic culture to use higher temperatures....

Bob
Cheesemaking has rekindled our love of spending time together, Diane and me!

eric1

Thanks very much for those responses.

The goat's milk cheeses I've made so far that haven't been as hard as I expected were cheesemaking.com's recipe for Hispanico and a recipe in Debra Amrein-Boyes' book for Montasio.  But if they're going to dry out and get significantly harder with aging then maybe my expectations are just off.  But then again I also tried cheesemaking.com's goat's milk tomme recipe, and I expected it to be relatively softer, but I can't really tell much difference between it and the recipes I expected to be harder.

Is floculation time the time between adding the rennet and cutting the curd?

And are there particular advantages to using a mesophilic culture instead of a thermophilic culture?  Or does it not make too much of a difference which type I use so long as it's appropriate for the temperatures of the recipe I'm following?

mikekchar

The moisture level of the cheese is mostly determined by what you do when you make it.  "Flocculation Time" is the amount of time between when you add the rennet and the curd first forms.  You will *never* cut it at the flocculation time.  Flocculation time is a bit of an imprecise measure and it varies from cheese make to cheese maker.  I *believe* this technique originate with Peter Dixon, but I could be wrong.

Basically what you do is that you add your rennet, stir and then float something on top of it (I use a cap from a soda bottle or a wine bottle, but you could use a milk cap if your milk comes in those kinds of containers).  Every minute or so you spin the cap.  When it stops spinning, then the milk has "flocculated".  I actually wait until there is a mark left in the milk when I remove the cap.  That's a bit longer than most people, but I find the measurement is more consistent because there is a concrete thing to look for.

Anyway, that's the "flocculation time".  Depending on the amount of rennet, the acidity of the milk and the temperature your flocculation time will be anywhere from about 7 minutes to 20 minutes.  It's kind of an advanced topic for why you might want to shoot for different flocculation targets, however, 12-15 minutes is pretty typically what you want to aim for.

After that you have a "flocculation multiplier".  That's how many "flocculation times" your total from adding rennet to cutting will be.  A flocculation multiplier of 1.0 is just the flocculation time.  2.0 is twice the flocculation time.  3.0 is three times, etc.  Most cheeses are in the 2.5 - 3.0 range.  The time you cut the curds gives you the biggest impact on the moisture level of the final cheese.

I think the easiest way to think about this is imagine cutting milk with a knife.  Your knife cuts right through it :-)  If your drain that and collect the curds you get *nothing*.  It just drains away.  That's the driest cheese you can get :-)  Now imagine a gel that is like rubber.  You cut the cheese and it cuts just like rubber.  Nothing leaks out.  That's the most moist cheese you can get (it retains 100%) of the water.  It's a bit weird, but you can see that soft curd will give you a dry cheese (because the water will leak out) and a hard curd will give you a moist cheese (because the curds will hold the water).

That means that the larger the multiplier, the more moist your cheese will be.  The smallest useful multiplier is 2.0.  That's used for cheeses like Parmesan.  Once you get to a multiplier of 5.0 then it's pretty much as moist as you can get.  There is one small caveat.  Once you get to a multiplier above 4.0, when you cut the curds, they are hard enough that they will tear.  Because the tear is jagged, whey will actually leak out *faster* than a cheese with a smaller multiplier.  It just means that if you are doing a very high moisture cheese, there is a practical limit on how long you should wait (there are other factors as well).

The next biggest place you can control moisture is with the size of your curds.  The bigger pieces you cut your curds, the more moisture they will hold.  If you are cutting them in 2 inch (5 cm) cubes, they will leak whey *much* slower than if you do 1/4 inch (1.25 cm).  That's because smaller pieces have larger surface area compared to their volume.  After you cut the curds you will be cooking them before you drain.  That's when whey will come out of the curds.  They will get smaller over time.   The bigger the pieces you start with and the bigger you can keep them by making sure they don't break apart when you stir, the more moisture they will hold when you drain and press them.

For curd size, milk quality is a very important piece of the puzzle.  The fat in homogenized milk stops the rennet from working properly.  This means that the milk doesn't have good "connection points" to stick together as a curd.  It will "fracture" as you cook the curds and crumble into small pieces.  You have to be *very* careful stirring curds with homogenized milk.  I have some strategies that I use for homogenized milk, but generally I just try to avoid it, because it is very hard to work with.

The next place where you have control of moisture is in how hot you cook the curds, how vigorously you stir and how long you stir.  The higher the temperature, when cooking the curds, the faster it will drain whey.  As the curd is acidifying from the cultures, it will also drain whey faster.  The longer you cook, and the higher the temperature, the more acidic the curds get and the more whey will drain.  You must be careful, though.  If your recipe asks you to raise the temperature (to dry out the curd, usually), it's easy to raise the temperature too quickly.  If you do that, the outside of the curds will get dry while the inside stays wet.  It will lock the moisture in the curd.  This is called "case hardening".  It is very important that you only raise the temperature by about 1 degree every 5-10 minutes.  It's tricky and many people assume it doesn't matter (what difference does 1 degree make?)  But it's an easy place to end up with too high moisture content (and usually too acidic a curd as a result).

And finally, the last place to control moisture content is how you drain and press it.  When you remove the curds from the whey in the pot, that's called "draining".  Usually you put the curds right into the mold.  Some types of cheese drain on a board for a while first, though.  The less acidic the curds are, the slower the whey will drain.  This means that cheeses that have short cooking times and/or less starter culture and/or lower cooking temperatures will have more moisture than other cheeses.  In my mind, the acidic of the cheese right out of the pot is almost the key for how your cheese is going to turn out later.  Getting the moisture level in the curds and the acidic right at draining pretty much determines what kind of cheese you are making in many cases (which is amazing in its own right).  It's subtle and tricky and requires lots of experience to get right.  But with time you'll get a feel for how each type of cheese should react when you drain it.

When you press cheese, it's very important that it gets a chance to drain.  Most people think that pressing is done to squeeze the whey out of the cheese.  This is not correct.  Whey will freely drain from the cheese even if you don't press it.  It's true that pressing it will cause the whey to come out *faster*, but there is a problem.  Just like cooking in the pot, if you press the cheese too hard, it will dry out on the outside.  This will stop whey trapped n the inside from coming out.  You always want to press with the *least* weight that you can.  This will result in a cheese that has drained properly and will have the right texture.

Some recipes have weights for pressing.  Just throw those numbers out of the window.  They apply to the person to wrote the recipe.  Your cheese and your setup is different.  Also, most recipe authors seriously over press their cheeses in my experience (and you often see the defects in their final cheeses if they show them to you in a video or whatever).  Also many recipes say to flip once over 2 or 3 hours.  That's possible if you know how the cheese is going to react to the pressing, but you should never do that the first 4-5 times you make a specific cheese.

I usually put cheese in a mold and see if whey is draining at all.  If it is, then there is no weight needed (this will be true of all but the driest cheeses).  After 15 minutes flip and check how the curds are "closing" (making a smooth rind on the outside).  You want the cheese to be fully closed after 2 hours, but *not* before.  You only want enough weight in the press for whey to bead up in the holes.  If it is running, then it is too much weight.  Flip again after 15 minutes.  From there you have 1.5 hours of draining left.  Again put enough weight in the press for whey to bead up in the holes.  Put more or less weight on depend on how fast it is closing.  This time wait for 30 minutes.  Do that 2 more times to get to 2 hours.  At this point, the cheese should be fully closed (no marks on the outside of the rind).  I usually remove the cloth in the last hour.  For heavily pressed cheeses, I press lightly for a final 30-60 minutes just to erase any marks from the holes in the mold.  Otherwise I'll let it sit in the mold with no weight so that it doesn't "slump" (squish out) as it's acidifying.  When it hits the acidity target that I want (which I measure by tasting the whey that's draining out), I'll salt it.

So I'm sure that's way more information than you can process at once but those are the major points for controlling moisture in a cheese :-)  It takes a *lot* of practice to get good at controlling it, but it's a fun hobby.

Last 2 questions: Thermophilic and mesophilic cultures contribute completely different flavors to the cheese.  We choose the temperatures mainly for the culture that we want, not the other way around.  In terms of subbing out thermophilic and mesophilic culture varieties, it *will* make a difference to the cheese.  There are some major divisions in the cultures, though.  Having a buttermilk culture as a mesophilic (something flora danica, or others that produce some gas) is pretty flexible for that side.  On the thermophilic some cheeses really need something with "bulgaricus" in it and some need something with "helveticus" in it.  The former is basically found in greek yogurt while the latter is something that is necessary for swiss or other alpine cheeses in that part of the world.  However, if your goal is "cheese that tastes good", it doesn't matter what you use really.  I make probably 90% of my cheeses with one (or both) of 2 cultures and I'm perfectly happy.

Aris

Type of starter culture and pH also affects texture and moisture content. I accidentally made a rind less unpressed hard cheese which has a texture like Parmesan without heating the curds (temperature never exceeded 98 f) and stirring occasionally for over 30 minutes. I used C101 starter culture and it is very effective in expelling whey out of the cheese without any pressing involved. I use both mesophilic and thermophilic bacteria when making cheese nowadays. When I make hard cooked curd cheeses (Asiago and Parmesan), I don't exceed 118 f when cooking the curds so the mesophilic bacteria survives.

You might find the links below useful:
https://imgur.com/a/yDTafoV
https://www.cdr.wisc.edu/assets/pipeline-pdfs/pipeline_2020_vol31_04.pdf?fbclid=IwAR00YuW7Wqg96WZgLw-cpT8rh2ah46WiszH_JWelHyOcZEWzlrLtr5JtwMU

eric1

Thank you very much, Mike and everyone else for all that information.  I've read this thread multiple times already.  This is a wonderful resource. 

One question for you, Mike.  When you say to only raise the temperature 1 degree every 5-10 minutes, do you mean one degree F or one degree C?

And do you all have any tips for simple ways of raising the temperature very slowly?  I don't (at least not yet) have any bigger pots than my cheese pot, so I can't put it in another pot in a double boiler set-up.  So the best plan I have for starters is to put my pot directly on my smallest burner on a low setting and stir continuously.  But even 1 hour seems like a very long time to stir continuously.  Are there simple ways to minimize how long and how continuously I need to stir?

And Mike, you said raising the temperature too quickly can lead to too acidic a curd.  I'm curious why that is.  I would have thought the opposite, that raising the temperature faster would mean less total time during which the curd would be acidifying?

And if a low flocculation multiplier is important to achieving a harder cheese, if I understand correctly that means I want to cut the curd as soon as possible.  Is that right?  If it is, why calculate the flocculation multiplier?  Is that only useful when I'm trying to make a cheese for which I'm not trying to maximize the hardness?  No matter how hard a cheese I'm making should I always wait for a clean break?  If so, if I'm trying to maximize the hardness of a cheese can I just watch the milk/curd closely and cut the curd just as soon as I see a clean break?  (Or if I shouldn't necessarily wait for a clean break before cutting the curd, how else will I be able to judge when the curd is firm enough to cut?  Simply by the flocculation multiplier?)

Thanks again!

rsterne

You can determine the floculation time by floating a small (sterilized) bowl on the milk after you add the rennet, and starting a timer.... Spin it once a minute for the first 8 minutes, then every 30 seconds until you notice it getting harder to spin (it stops almost immediately).... I use a light, plastic bowl, and continue until when I try and spin it, it twists back slightly in the opposite direction, as I have found that to be the most consistent method....



When you remove the bowl, you should see a slight scar/impression in the top of the milk.... THAT is your floculation time, and you multiply that by 2 to 4 times, depending on how hard you want your cheese.... I use 3 X for a Gouda and a Cheddar.... 2-2.5 X for a Parm, and sometimes 3.5 X for a softer, moister cheese.... The concept of a "clean break" is flawed, using a Floc. multiple is far better....

The ideal Floc. time is 12-15 minutes.... If you are less than 10 minutes, or more than 20 minutes, you need more or less rennet.... Most of the time, a low Floc. multiple will be combined with a small cut (about 1/4"), while a longer Floc. multiple will see the curd cut larger (maybe 1/2").... I use 1/4" for Parms, 3/8" for Gouda and Cheddar, and 1/2" for a Caerphilly.... Generally speaking, harder, drier cheeses can be, and are, aged longer (1-2 years), while soft, moist cheeses are consumed within 6 months or less....

Bob
Cheesemaking has rekindled our love of spending time together, Diane and me!

mikekchar

You want to raise 1 degree C every 5-10 minutes generally.  For a tomme, for example, I'll raise it from 32-38 over 30 minutes, which is 1 degree every 5 minutes.  I make small cheeses (only 4 liters of milk) so I actually directly heat my pots.  I turn on the burner to the lowest setting and then wait until it has gone up 1 degree.  Then I turn it off and wait until the rest of the 5 minutes has elapsed :-).  I've never experienced any problems doing that.  It's really more like if you raise it 2-3 degrees over a minute that you might run into problems.  It's not hard to do, but for most beginners the idea that going up 2-3 degrees will make *any* difference at all is hard to imagine.

Anyway, for acidity, what I meant was: imagine that you want to get to 38 C over 30 minutes.  You turn on the heat and go, "Oh.  I'm at 38 C already.  OK, I just hold it at 38 C for 30 minutes."  That will result in more acid production.

Bob's explanation is great for the flocculation.  Just a word about "clean break".  The term is *very* badly used in most places.  It means something very different than what most people think it means.  It kind of drives me crazy...

To inspect the "break", what you do is to put a knife or something similar into the curds.  You *do not cut a slash in the curds*!  You turn the knife sideways and lift up.  This will cause a crack to expand from where you put the knife into the curds.  This is called the "break".  If there is no crack, then you have no break.  When you have a break, just hold it open and you will see whey flowing into the break.  Early on, the whey will be cloudy.  That's a "cloudy break".  When the curd is very firm, the whey will be clear.  That's a "clean break".

There is another thing to consider when looking at the break.  When the curd is fairly soft, the break will be straight.  When the curd is very hard, the break will be jagged and torn.  Another definition of "clean break" is when the break is smooth and straight.  There is a kind of sweet spot where you are getting clear whey running into the break, but the break is not jagged and ripped.

However, most of the time you do *not* want a clean break.  A clean break is a *very* firm curd.  I recommend looking at videos of commercial cheese makers when they cut the curd.  You will see that most cheeses are made without a clean break.  I usually inspect the break when I make cheese, but mostly I rely on flocculation multipliers.  The break is really just a way to judge if something went horribly wrong.  It tends to be useful when using homogenised milk because it seems that you get early flocculation with those and you have to adjust your multiplier.  Checking the break is one way to help you zero in on that multiplier.  Mostly, though, it's not a very good way to judge curd quality.

rsterne

Mike, I learn something just about every post you make!....  8) .... If I understand you correctly, THIS is the proper way to check the break?....



Am I lifting the curd too high?.... Would you consider that break smooth or jagged?.... If smooth, then the whey that collects (milky or clear) is the key?.... If you click on the photo, it should enlarge....  ;)

Bob

Cheesemaking has rekindled our love of spending time together, Diane and me!

mikekchar

Almost right  ;D  You need to twist the blade so the flat part is perpendicular to the cut.  Then when you lift up the initial cut will open up in the direction you are lifting.  That way the width of the blade holds the break open.

But that's a smooth break to me.  My browser is doing funny things so I can't quite tell if the whey is clear, but it looks pretty clear.

rsterne

#11
So it's a "twist and lift" motion of the blade?.... I thought that was a "clean break" at the time, and yes, the whey was pretty clear....

BTW, thanks again, Mike, AC4U....  8)

Bob
Cheesemaking has rekindled our love of spending time together, Diane and me!

eric1

  Wow! There is way more to know about when to cut than I realized. Thank you all for that information.
  After making several different cheeses already, that as far as I can tell from the outside turned out well and are aging, I had a definite failure yesterday with parmesan. I am hoping someone can point me towards where I messed up. When I put the curds in the mold they didn't knit together enough to flip and redress until they had been pressing for an hour and a half and had gotten up to 20 pounds in a 8 inch mold and even then the cheese was very fragile and wanting to fall to pieces. After 13 hours total pressing time including 8 hours at 250 pounds I put it in the brine. It was smooth on the outside and didn't have any cracks. But when I checked on it 5 hours later there were loose curds floating and big cracks going across the cheese and a big hole where the side caved out. My best guess at the problem is that, because I was being careful to heat the curds slowly, it ended up taking almost two hours of stirring to get up to 124 degrees F. Is it possible that I just dried the curds out too much in that time? I cut the curds pretty small (less than 1/4 inch). With pressing, I started at 5 pounds for 20 minutes, then 10 pounds for 45 minutes,20 pounds for 25 minutes,35 pounds for 25 minutes, 45 pounds for 45 minutes, 65 pounds for 35 minutes, 100 pounds for 1 hour, 172 pounds for 1 hour, 250 pounds for 8 hours.Thanks!

mikekchar

I don't have much time to type this morning, but the key is having a high pH (low acidity) when it gets into the mold.  Parmesan (like all alpine style cheeses) *must* have a very high pH going into the mold (well over 6.0).  So you cut early (say a multiplier of 2.0 or 2.5) and then you get the temp up to 150 C over a little over 30 minutes and straight into the mold.  At the high temps and high pH, you barely need any weight to close it (even though it's a very hard cheese).

It's a pretty advanced cheese, though, so don't worry about it.  Eat your mistakes early and try again :-)

Aris

Quote from: eric1 on January 20, 2023, 07:01:04 PM
  Wow! There is way more to know about when to cut than I realized. Thank you all for that information.
  After making several different cheeses already, that as far as I can tell from the outside turned out well and are aging, I had a definite failure yesterday with parmesan. I am hoping someone can point me towards where I messed up. When I put the curds in the mold they didn't knit together enough to flip and redress until they had been pressing for an hour and a half and had gotten up to 20 pounds in a 8 inch mold and even then the cheese was very fragile and wanting to fall to pieces. After 13 hours total pressing time including 8 hours at 250 pounds I put it in the brine. It was smooth on the outside and didn't have any cracks. But when I checked on it 5 hours later there were loose curds floating and big cracks going across the cheese and a big hole where the side caved out. My best guess at the problem is that, because I was being careful to heat the curds slowly, it ended up taking almost two hours of stirring to get up to 124 degrees F. Is it possible that I just dried the curds out too much in that time? I cut the curds pretty small (less than 1/4 inch). With pressing, I started at 5 pounds for 20 minutes, then 10 pounds for 45 minutes,20 pounds for 25 minutes,35 pounds for 25 minutes, 45 pounds for 45 minutes, 65 pounds for 35 minutes, 100 pounds for 1 hour, 172 pounds for 1 hour, 250 pounds for 8 hours.Thanks!
The curds got cooked too long which made them too dry and probably developed too much acidity therefore they won't knit properly. You also pressed the cheese with too much weight which might have dried it further. I make hard cheeses without any pressing involved, they just knit really well because I don't overcook them and I mold the curds at a high pH. Parmigiano Reggiano is only pressed briefly with a plastic or wooden circular weight, then it drains for 2 days and they never use a cheese press. It is the same with Pecorino Romano and Grana Padano. Below is my unpressed hard cheese that was never cooked above 112 f with a total stirring time of over 30 minutes. Its hardness is like Parmigiano Reggiano.
https://imgur.com/a/UXHJ5IQ