New to cheesemaking, may have messed up ingredients

[Possum-Pie]

Thanks, everyone.  That was a good lesson in pH. I didn't mean to imply that a scientific approach to cheesemaking wasn't needed, As I mentioned earlier, I hold a doctorate degree and LOVE all things scientific.  I've tried my hand at winemaking, cheesemaking, breadmaking and distilling. One commonality is that you can look at 10 different recipes with 10 different techniques and they are all different. Some folks insist on precise measures, times, and techniques while others "wing it". I think some of the variables do have "wiggle room" while others don't.

My first cheese was an Asiago. I made some mistakes but it turned out great in flavor and texture. I made Ricotta from the whey of a Romano batch and it was perfect but attempting to use the whey from this pepper jack failed completely.  From reading about the pH factor, I bet that is why.
I will use my pH meter from here on. One thing about it that I don't like is that it takes a long time to settle on the final number, sort of like the old mercury thermometers that you had to hold under your tongue for 3 min.  This is a nuisance b/c I must stand there for up to 30 seconds while it is finding the final pH. 

[Aris]

Possum-Pie
I agree with you. It is funny that I always make a lot of mistakes when making cheese but I still get the result that I want. I am supposed to press cheeses such as Gouda, Asiago and etc. but I still get good results without pressing them. Even Cheddar can be made without being pressed. I almost never do the flocculation method but my cheeses still has the right moisture content and texture. Some people say you can't make "mesophilic" cheese using yogurt/yogurt culture but they don't know that there are several kinds of yogurt which can be mesophilic or mesophilic and thermophilic. I've also made cheddar using thermophilic yogurt and it had the flavor profile of a cheddar. Proper technique and getting the right pH is far more important. I still make all kinds of cheeses even when ambient temperature in my kitchen is near 100 f. I don't measure humidity and can still age all kinds of cheese just fine. I've made traditional Ricotta using acidic whey (5.3 pH). With cheesemaking, there is more than one way to skin a cat and it seems there is no right and wrong. pH is very important though, as long as you get the post salting pH right, you can get away with a lot of "mistakes".

[Possum-Pie]

So being aware of pH, I'm making a small 1-gallon batch of provolone today. Started pH of milk 6/8. After an hour of culture and CA+ CL- it is 6.24  Getting ready to add rennet/lipase. What should my target pH be after coagulation? I see stretching should be about 5.4 or so...

[Aris]

To be honest, I don't pay attention to pH during that step. I only pay attention to stretching pH when making pasta filata like Provolone. At 5.1-5.2 pH, it should stretch really well, 5.4 is too high for it to stretch properly imo. From my experience, lower pH results in better stretch. Mozzarella made from water buffalo milk stretch better with a pH of 4.9-5.0. Make sure to do a stretch test on a small piece of curd before proceeding to heat and stretch all of the curds. The test curd must stretch over a feet easily.

[mikekchar]

So being aware of pH, I'm making a small 1-gallon batch of provolone today. Started pH of milk 6/8. After an hour of culture and CA+ CL- it is 6.24  Getting ready to add rennet/lipase. What should my target pH be after coagulation? I see stretching should be about 5.4 or so...

I usually target 6.1 or so, but mainly because I *think* that traditional past filata makers tend to make ricotta immediately after draining and so I reason that's what they are hitting. I agree with Aris that it probably doesn't make that much difference for this kind of cheese.  Probably.  Honestly, that drain pH is the bit that I'm feeling the most tenuous on with my understanding of cheese making.    But, anyway, it will only adjust the end result if it does anything at all.  The make or break for this one is the pH that you stretch at.

[Possum-Pie]

OK, total failure on the provolone.  RECIPE:

1 US gallon Cow's Milk.
Optional: Calcium Chloride if using store bought pasteurized milk, amount as per manufacturers directions or your experience.
Thermophilic starter of your choice, amount as per directions or your experience, (normally ~ 1/8 teaspoon per 1 US gallon).
Lipase powder of your choice, amount as per directions or your experience, (normally ~ 1/4 teaspoon per 1 US gallon).
Rennet, amount as per package directions or your experience, diluted in 1/4 cup cool unchlorinated water.
Salt for direct dry salting for brine.
pH papers or meter.
Makes ~1 pound cheese.
Directions
Pour milk into stockpot (vat) in double boiler on stove or directly on lowest heater element.
Heat milk slowly to 30-36°C/86-97°F, stir slowly so doesn't catch or have cold areas.
Optionally stir in diluted Calcium Chloride if using pasteurized milk.
Stir in Thermophilic Starter Culture, cover and allow milk to ripen for ~30-60 minutes, pH should be above 6.0.
Stir in Lipase, cover and let sit for ~10 minutes.
Stir in diluted rennet, cover and set aside for curd to form.
After ~40 minutes, check for Clean Curd Break, if not obtained, cover and check again in another 10-20 minutes.
When clean break obtained, Cut Curd into 1 cm/3/8 inch cubes then let cut curd rest for ~10 minutes.
Slowly heat and occasionally stir cut curds to 40°C/104°F @ 1°C/2°F every 5 minutes, should take 45 minutes. Let sit for ~15 minutes to allow cut curds to settle.
Ladle cut curds into colander, place colander over stockpot with cut curds, cover colander, and let curds sit ~30 minutes @ 41°C / 105°F.
Dip a small piece of curd into 77-82°C / 170-180°F water and perform stretch test. If not smooth and shiny stretch, try again at ~15 minute intervals (can take up to 2 hours).
Once curds are ready (pH 5.0-5.3), cut into ~2 cm /1 inch slices and place in hot water.
Let sit in hot water until enture mass stretches easily.
Remove large mass from hot water and stretch curd forming it into a large ball, then form ball into a jug shaped cheese with thumb hole at top and pulling cheese up from sides and kneading it into hole on top. If curd cools too much, place back in hot water for few seconds as required.
When cheese is shiny, place into bowl of ice water to quench.
Immerse cheese in saturated brine for 2 hours.
Age cheese at ~10°C / ~50°F and 85% humidity for 3 weeks, turn occasionally.
Age cheese at ~4°C / ~40°F and 85% humidity for 3 weeks, for 2-12 months depending on desired sharpness.


Started pH of milk 6/8. After an hour of culture and CA+ CL- it is 6.24. after Lipase and rennet, It set up well, with a clean break. After slowly heating, draining whey, resting, I realized that I couldn't test pH any longer since my meter is "liquid only" --Stretch test yielded a crumbly break. More rest time. crumbly curd.  2 hour rest longer, still crumbly. I guessed that the pH wasn't right, covered it, and put it in the fridge overnight hoping to lower pH. This morning, no stretch. Put the entire curd mass in the hot water, tried mashing it, and ended up with a pot of pea-sized whey that wouldn't even stick to each other much less stretch.  I had the exact same problem when I tried making Mozzarella and ended up throwing it all away. 
Any insights? 

[Aris]

You lost patience, that happened to me too multiple times in the past. I think you needed to wait longer especially the curd was in the fridge and still cool which will slow down the culture. You don't need a pH meter, use your senses and do a stretch test. The curd mass and whey will have a slightly sour taste and smell when it is ready to be stretched. When I make Mozzarella di Bufala, the curd mass has to be sour. I also read in cheesemaking.com that you shouldn't use calcium chloride when making mozarella/pasta filata because it will affect the stretch. You should give their recipe a try > https://cheesemaking.com/products/provolone-cheese-making-recipe

EDIT: You can test the whey's pH. Make sure the whey recently came from the curd mass. I let my Mozzarella curd drain inside a stock pot and the whey accumulates inside which makes it easy to assess its pH.

[mikekchar]

For what it's worth, been there, done that, have a closet full of t-shirts :-)

You really need to block off the whole day and start at 6 am.  Then you have a good shot of watching the pH like you need to.  I recognize that "up to 2 hours".  Yeah, 2 hours my ass.  Once you've done it once or twice with your setup, then you'll be able to replicate it.  It's that first time that's tough (or, like me, if you haven't made any for a year, you have to start again because probably everything has changed).Tr

I think the way to think about it is that the culture is working on the lactose in the milk.  If you were making yogurt, and you held the milk at 40 C, how long would it take with that culture.  That's literally the first thing you should do :-)  Part of the problem, though, is that 1/8 tsp of culture to 1 US gallon is essentially "Throw a random amount of culture into the pot".  It's for this reason, I switched to mother cultures.  With that said, here is my suggestion:

Take 500 ml of milk and add a pinch of culture.  Hold it at 40 C until it gels.  Put that in the fridge until you are ready for the next step (likely the next day).

Take 1 liter of milk.  Add 15 ml of the yogurt you made in the previous step.  Hold it at 40 C.  Time how long it takes to gel at 40 C.  The trick here is at gelling at 40 C is the equivalent of about a pH of 4.8 or 4.9.  When you make your cheese, it will take *most of that time* to get down to 5.1 (where you want to be).  Put your yogurt in the fridge until you are ready for the next step (likely the next day).  You can eat the 500 ml of yogurt you made in the first step :-)

Now take 4 liters of milk.  Add 60 ml of the yogurt you made in the previous step and your calcium chloride.  Don't bother with freaking lipase.  Don't bother with complicated steps.  Bring the milk right up to 40 C.  Wait about 20 minutes to pre-acidify the milk.  Add your rennet.  Time how long it takes until a milk cap floating in your milk takes to leave a mark when you remove it.  Wait 2 more of those periods (i.e. if it takes 12 minutes, then total wait time should be 36 minutes -- it should be about that).  Cut to 2 cm cubes, heal for 5 minutes, maintain heat and stir until the curds are firm.  Take a curd out of the vat.  Pull it apart with your fingers.  At first it will be hard on the outside, but "juicy" in the inside.  Keep stirring until it's no longer juicy on the inside.

Drain you curds in to a colander, retaining a good amount of your whey, putting the whey in a pot.  Put the colander on top of the pot.  Put a lid on top of the colander.  Adjust the temperature of your stove so that the heat from the whey keeps the cheese in the colander at about 40 C (Don't worry if it's off a degree or too, but keep an eye on it).  Keep flipping it every 30 minutes.

Look at the clock.  How much time has gone by?  2 hours?  3 hours?  How long did your yogurt take to gel?  8 hours?  So if we're 3 hours in and it tool 8 hours to gel, by rough estimate we need to wait another 3-4 hours (2 hours, my ass!  Can't say that enough :-) ).  Keep in mind that the cheese has less whey in it and therefore less lactose in there.  So it may take longer.

The next thing to keep in mind: We currently have cheese.  It's delicious cheese.  It's wonderful cheese.  We could salt it right now, eat it fresh after a week and it would be amazing.  We could age it a bit longer and say, "Look at me!  I made a caciotta!".  Whatever happens, let's not get *less* than this.

Try to find a clever way to collect some whey draining from the cheese.  So instead of a colander, use a pot, for example (just make sure to drain it often).  Keep tasting the whey.  At first it will be sweet.  Then you'll find that it doesn't taste like anything.  You may start to pick up more of the fat flavor as the sweetness diminishes.  And then... It will taste either just a bit tart or a bit bitter (depending on if you are good at distinguishing between acidic and bitter).  Start doing stetch tests.  Again, this is not going to be 2 hours in, probably.   Make sure that you *fully* warm up the sample and that you properly massage it in the hot water so that it's flexible.  Then stretch.  Once it stretches easily, you are good to go.

But... What happens if it doesn't work?  Maybe you ran out of time.  Maybe it just got more and more acidic, but it just doesn't seem to want to stretch (happens to me often with homogenised milk, unfortunately).  Don't panic.  You have caciotta.  Dry salt it with 2% salt and call it a day.  Try again another day.

The problem is that cheese won't stretch when it's not acidic enough.  It also won't stretch when it's too acidic.  If you go too far, then it won't stretch (which is why putting it away over night almost never works).

But if you try to stretch and it all falls apart, then strain it out in a cheese cloth and mix with cream.  You've got really bad low fat cottage cheese, but it's not terrible :-)

[Possum-Pie]

Wow, thanks Aris/Mikekchar! 
That helps.  Does starting with pasteurized milk slow the acidification?  I know fresh unpasteurized milk sours much quicker than pasteurized. The actual drop in pH is due to lactic acid production? I guess that seeing the steady drop in pH during the early process, and then seeing it stuck in the high 5's caused me to think there was something wrong. There are so many recipies, "experts" on YouTube, etc. giving instruction on how to do something. The trouble is you don't know what is crap and what isn't. On another forum, we were discussing people who get their healthcare information from Facebook/Twitter.  I have a doctorate and spent 8 years studying medicine...Yet people argue that they saw such and such on Facebook so they are going to take that supplement.  The trouble is, the internet has made everyone appear on equal ground as far as knowledge. I fear that I've put too much faith in random YouTubers and untested recipies...

I decided to put the whole crumbly mess into my press and see what happened.  I have a tight-packed wheel of some kind of cheese now, Maybe it will be good!

[mikekchar]

Basically, the pH is buffered by calcium phosphate.  The bacteria produces lactic acid as it consumes lactose.  The kind of tricky bit is that the vast majority of calcium phosphate is locked up in the casein micelles.  As the pH drops, the structure of the micelles relaxes and it liberates more calcium phosphate into solution.  This will again buffer the pH.  It's actually common in mozzarella making to hit a pH of 5.1 and then after a few hours find that you are now at a pH of 5.3 because so much calcium phosphate has been liberated (I believe they call it "pH rebound" in the literature).  So some producers hit a target lower than ideal because they know that they are going to rebound into the correct place.  I suspect (but don't know) that this is what's happening with Aris's lovely buffalo milk, as he says he gets best results around 4.9.  It just might be that his particular milk has a lot of calcium phosphate and that it comes into solution at that time.

So, anyway, it's quite common for it cheese to be buffered at a particular pH and then come crashing down all of a sudden, so you have to keep your eyes open.  Also, be aware that pH meters are finicky and it's quite easy to get wildly incorrect results (can by off by a factor of 100, accounting for the logarithmic scale).  Every time I hear reports of weird readings, my first reaction is to doubt the reading :-)  I've come to that conclusion after owning several pH meters and having decided I didn't want to use them any more  ;)

[Possum-Pie]

I calibrate my pH meter and it seems fairly accurate, BUT not precise.  Accuracy is "hitting the bullseye" in a target or giving the actual pH on a meter.  Precision is getting the same results all of the time.  My pH meter often gives me 7.0, 7,1, 6.9... for distilled water.  The average of those is accurately " 7.0 but it doesn't give me the same reading every time.  My digital scale will give me 5.67 grams as the weight of a U.S. quarter every time I throw any quarter on it...it is both accurate and precise. you can fix accuracy in an instrument (calibrate it) but you can't fix precision.



Can bringing the temperature up too fast after cutting and resting the curds affect the pH not dropping far enough?

[B e n]

Can bringing the temperature up too fast after cutting and resting the curds affect the pH not dropping far enough?

It does effect the pH, but maybe not the way you are thinking. Mikekchar summed it up really well in another post:

When heating curds, water gets expelled from the curds. The basic idea is that warm water is less dense than cool water. The bigger the difference in temperature between the inside of the curd and the outside of the curd, the faster water will be forced out of the curd.

The problem is that the water gets forced out of the outside layer of the curd first (because it is in contact with the warm water). If the water leaves fast enough, the outside of the curd will dry up. This stops whey from being expelled from the curd. The result is called "case hardening". Basically you end up with curds that have lots of moisture inside them and they will never really dry out. That, in turn, means that your cheese will have a higher moisture content and that it will drain a lot slower than you would like. Usually that gives you very acidic, crumbly cheeses.

[mikekchar]

Just to be clear what I think Ben was getting at, if you "case harden" the curds by heating them too fast, they will retain whey.  Whey contains lactose.  Lactose gets converted to lactate and makes it get acidic.

When the curds are draining well in the vat, you remove most of the lactose when you drain the curds.  This reduces the speed (and potentially extent) that the curds will acidify.  If they aren't draining well, the curds will acidify much more quickly after you drain the whey.

In terms of accuracy and precision, my understanding of the usual problems with these kinds of pH meters is that protein on the bulb can affect the reading.  Washing the bulb often changes the calibration.  So it's every easy to get inaccurate results unless you are very attentive to washing *and* calibrating the meter.  This is the reason that some pros still use titration to measure acidity (it's basically impossible to get wrong once you learn how to do it).  I've thought about measuring TA, but keeping a store of reagents is a pain in the bum :-)  Also, I have no place to store easily breakable glassware.  But, then, if I wear goggles and a lab coat, measuring TA *is* really science-y...  I would need to work on my maniacal laugh though (Who am I kidding?  I don't have to work on it...)

[Possum-Pie]

One of the biggest challenges that I have is "slowly" raising the temp from around 90 F up to some target temp. over 45 minutes. I have an electric stovetop so turning the temp up that slowly is a challenge. Sometimes I find that I hit the target temperature 15 min. after I started stirring. I'll be more careful next time since it seems it's better to have lower temps during much of the stirring to prevent hardening of the outer whey.
Yes, I've pretty much decided that the pH meter isn't very useful for cheesemaking except maybe to get the starting pH of the milk. I hate the pH strips as I have a very difficult time differentiating the subtle color differences between some of the values.  I like the suggestions posted here about learning to guess the approx. pH by subtle characteristics of the whey.

[B e n]

I have used one of the inexpensive pH meters in the past for beer/wine. It was a pain, constant calibration, needing relatively clean liquid etc. It is not a good solution. The cost of labware to do titration makes that inhibitive, plus risk of breakage is just not worth it in my little 2 gallon "cheese factory". I have broken enough hydrometers to know glassware can't exist in the brewery. pH strips are a little tough: there is a significant difference between a pH of 5.1 and 5.3 in cheesemaking, but it can be very difficult to tell the difference in color on strips. I don't have near the experience required to tell pH without any sort of instrumentation.

I picked up an extick on black friday. It is way easier, self calibrating with known pH solutions (I can do this while warming milk, and the known calibration solutions are easy enough to source), tells you when the calibration is out, it will pH a solid cheese (much faster with whey though) and cleaning is less fiddly than some of the others I have used in the past. Also gives me a double check on temps. Hopefully it is the long term answer for some consistency in the recipes. Ultimately consistancy is the thing I am most interested in so for me the expense made sense. I have made most of my own forms, and my own press so I haven't really spent much on the hobby which made the expense a little easier to swallow. Plus I will use it for the beer/wine/whiskey side.

My point is cheap pH meters may not be worth what you pay for them, but that doesn't mean all pH meters are junk.


On the temp rise things, you could use a water bath (sous vide is the king for small batch cheese making) or cycle your power on and off.