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cheese puffing

Started by eric1, November 22, 2023, 02:10:32 AM

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eric1

    I had a cheese puff and am trying to figure out what caused it and how worried about it I need to be. The first sign I had was when I put it in the saturated brine it floated a lot more than normal. After a few days it was obviously puffed (rounded on top and sides). From what I have read this type of blowing is most likely caused by a coliform bacteria and because of poor sanitation or contaminated milk. But this isn't making sense in my case, because I've made six batches of cheese within the last few weeks all from the milk of our goats and only had problems with this recipe. I made two batches following a recipe for Montasio which is a small cut curd that is heated to 110 degrees F before pressing. The first one had a little bit of puffing as well but not as dramatic as the second one. I also used this recipe a year ago and noticed slight puffing with that cheese.  I ate that cheese and liked it a lot. All the other cheeses I have made have been slightly softer (not heated above 100 degrees), and I haven't seen any issues with them at all.
  If anyone has any idea what is going on here it would be much appreciated. I can share more details if there is anything that would be useful.
  Thanks!

mikekchar

I don't know of any good gas producers that are comfortable in the 110 F range.  Early blowing with raw milk, especially one where you are into thermophilic range would be a huge red flag for me.  Sometimes in mesophilic range you have LLD or LMC producing gas, but they are not going to be very happy having been brought up to 110 F.  As a test, I would do a side by side where you pasteurise your milk and see if you still get the same issue.  But, personally, I would not eat that cheese unless I had a really good explanation of why it's doing what it's doing.

eric1

Thank you!  Of course, that's not what I hoped to hear, but that's very helpful.

If I do a side by side test with pasteurized milk, I would need to add calcium chloride to the pasteurized milk, is that right?

This makes me wonder about aging times.  I know there is or was some rule in the States about aging cheeses made from unpasteurized milk for a minimum amount of time.  I guess that's supposed to eliminate or reduce some potential pathogens.  Is e. coli by any chance one of those?  Do you or anyone else know which pathogens (if any) can be completely eliminated and a cheese made safe to eat simply by aging (even if the pathogen of concern with this cheese wouldn't be one of them)?  Or which pathogens are potentially affected at all by aging?

What about cooking?  If I cook the cheese so that it reaches a minimum temperature for a minimum amount of time (instead of consuming it normally, straight out of the fridge) is that an option for making questionable cheeses safe to eat?  Or is there really nothing better to do than go ahead and feed them to the hogs?

And if the problem is likely with my milk, can anyone speculate as to why it would just be showing up with this one recipe?  I've probably made well over a dozen goat's milk cheeses between last winter and this winter -- November-January is mainly when my goats are in milk and I have time for making hard cheeses -- but I've only seen the problem with the one goat's milk montasio I made last year and the two I've made this year.  If I'm going to toss the montasios, should I toss all the other cheeses made with the same milk, too, even if there haven't been any visible signs of problems with the other cheeses?


DrChile

Quotehis makes me wonder about aging times.  I know there is or was some rule in the States about aging cheeses made from unpasteurized milk for a minimum amount of time.  I guess that's supposed to eliminate or reduce some potential pathogens.  Is e. coli by any chance one of those?  Do you or anyone else know which pathogens (if any) can be completely eliminated and a cheese made safe to eat simply by aging (even if the pathogen of concern with this cheese wouldn't be one of them)?  Or which pathogens are potentially affected at all by aging?

Aged 60 days is the rule for the US - though this rule originated in 1949 i believe.  This is mostly to control for salmonella or listeria. There have been studies that have shown the presence of E coli O157:H7 in raw milk cheeses at 60 days but decreased significantly at 90+ days. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21219739/

The coliforms mikekchar is talking about include E coli, Enterobacter, Klesiella, and Citrobacter.  Personally, the E coli (especially the O157:H7 strain) is the one that scares me.  I've seen and treated patients who have gotten infected with this.  So if I see blowing - i pitch the cheese.  It's just not worth it.

QuoteWhat about cooking?  If I cook the cheese so that it reaches a minimum temperature for a minimum amount of time (instead of consuming it normally, straight out of the fridge) is that an option for making questionable cheeses safe to eat?  Or is there really nothing better to do than go ahead and feed them to the hogs?

Why take the chance?  E coli isn't known for being heat resistant but why?  just make another batch IMO

Trent
"Decide what to be, and go be it" - Avett Brothers

Aris

I had a raw milk grana cheese once that puffed a lot while it was draining. I decided to turn it into a Provolone style cheese. Hopefully the heat treatment, low moisture and 1 year aging will make it safe to consume.

eric1

Trent asked why take the chance with trying to kill possible e coli contamination, why not just make another batch.

For one thing, I was thinking there were probably things I could do (sufficient aging and/or cooking) that would practically eliminate particular pathogens.  There are lots of things I eat or drink that I would consider very risky to eat raw but which risks I assume are practically eliminated by cooking long enough at a minimum temperature, so I was thinking I might be able to do the same with cheese.

But also, especially as a beginning cheesemaker, it seems possible that I could make another batch of cheese that would also have some of the same issues I've seen in my montasios but without signs that I would notice, so if there are things I can do (like aging for a minimum amount of time) that could eliminate or significantly reduce risks even if I don't otherwise have any cause for concern, I'd like to understand how effective those safeguards are, and if aging cheese for a minimum period can eliminate certain problems, then I'd probably avoid eating any cheeses that were aged for shorter periods, at least until I have more experience and knowledge than I do now. 

DrChile

I get it - i also eat things that could give me problems (raw things etc).

However, I dont mess around with coliforms.  My risk tolerance is likely lower than yours and that's based on my experience seeing what those toxins do to the human body.

Like I said, if I see blowing, i pitch the cheese and make another one being careful to pay attention to my ingredients and sanitation techniques - IMO if you keep making cheese and continue to have issues with blowing/coliforms/contamination then the entire process needs to be looked at.  Again - that's my risk tolerance likely being less than yours.  and that's ok.... 

Trent
"Decide what to be, and go be it" - Avett Brothers

Aris

Quote from: DrChile on December 01, 2023, 09:17:08 PM
I get it - i also eat things that could give me problems (raw things etc).

However, I dont mess around with coliforms.  My risk tolerance is likely lower than yours and that's based on my experience seeing what those toxins do to the human body.

Like I said, if I see blowing, i pitch the cheese and make another one being careful to pay attention to my ingredients and sanitation techniques - IMO if you keep making cheese and continue to have issues with blowing/coliforms/contamination then the entire process needs to be looked at.  Again - that's my risk tolerance likely being less than yours.  and that's ok.... 

Trent
I agree. There is a cheese though called Queso Palmita which is a Venezuelan fresh cheese made from raw milk and it has numerous holes. They don't use any starter culture and the microbes that make it puff and give it numerous holes are coliforms, enterobacters and etc.

eric1

Quote from: DrChile on December 01, 2023, 09:17:08 PM
then the entire process needs to be looked at.

What would that mean?  I guess each of the ingredients (milk, rennet, and culture) are possible sources of the problem.  Then my own hands during the cheesemaking process.  Maybe equipment that's never getting adequately cleaned?  Are there any other possibilities that should at least be on my radar?

Aris

Eric,
Is pasteurizing or thermizing the milk an option for you? I prefer to thermize because it is faster and just as effective. You just heat the milk to 149 f, let it sit for 10-20 seconds (I prefer 2-3 minutes) then cool it in a water bath with ice. My thermized milk cheese never puff.

eric1

My milk is coming from my own goats, and it's hard for me to imagine that I'm repeatedly contaminating the milk somehow, but maybe... I really don't know (but I haven't seen any signs of any problems in other cheeses I've made in between attempts at montasio, just in the montasio.)  I'm also using rennet that I processed myself from my goat kids, and I've been thinking lately that that's a more likely source of contamination, but I just really don't know what's going on or why.

The only problem I'd have heating my milk before making cheese -- at least for a one time experiment -- would be if I needed to add some purchased thing (calcium chloride?) to the milk.  Whatever it is I'm pretty sure I don't have it on hand.  But if I didn't need to add anything to compensate and all I needed to do was heat the milk, I could certainly do that, but the milk is definitely valuable, and then it takes a lot of time to make a batch of cheese, too, so I want to invest my milk and time in the experiments most likely to uncover whatever my problem is.

What would you think of eating any of my other cheeses, made from the same milk and with the same rennet and cultures, if they didn't have any signs of problems?  Would you assume that all of my cheeses were contaminated and throw them all away?  Or only the ones that are blowing (assuming I'm using the term "blowing" correctly)?

Aris

If I was you, I'd eat it. I even plan to eat the cheese that puffed because I turned it into a provolone style cheese and will age it for a year. I suggest you try using store bought animal rennet. Freshly pasteurized/thermized goat's milk for me doesn't need calcium chloride.

mikekchar

I know this sounds weird, but contamination of milk *may* be possible *in the goat*, according to some papers I've read (and subsequently lost).  In fact, when they are doing experiments which require sterile, but not treated milk, they have to be careful about the feed of the animals because it is thought that bacteria can enter the system through that route.  Unfortunately no known mechanism allows that to happen so it's kind of up in the air right now.

The main thing I want to communicate, though, is that milk contamination can come from sources *other than your handling*.  There may be systemic issues beyond your control.  In fact, I remember seeing a study of raw milk contamination issues and it was saying that there is a reverse correlation between the quality of handling and incidence of contamination (i.e. the most controlled milk producers have the highest incidence of contamination).  This was in the US and UK *only*, though, and I think the implication was that standards are so high that larger, more automated systems tend to produce contamination because single issues can become more systematically problematic as opposed to smaller producers that tend to vary their approach more often.

I think there is a tendency to assume that because you are doing everything right, that there is basically no chance of a problem, but that just doesn't seem to be the case in milk production.  I wish I wasn't so lazy about keeping references for these kinds of things :-(  But it's worth reading as much current research as you can because understanding is changing in this space pretty quickly.

DrChile

QuoteWhat would you think of eating any of my other cheeses, made from the same milk and with the same rennet and cultures, if they didn't have any signs of problems?

Oh I'd probably eat them.

Trent
"Decide what to be, and go be it" - Avett Brothers