Out of control

[Sailor Con Queso]

Very nice. It looks like you will be able to press 2 or more cheeses at once.

[TroyG]

Yes I was able to do both of the 4 pound molds under the press side by side. I have enough plates to build another press as well, so if the 10 pound molds are too big I will press them separately.

I needed the press to be stainless steel due to Texas changing the law to require this. So now I am covered. Oh and since I use Kodova molds I could actually stack them and press even more. 

[DeejayDebi]

The color will darken some and even out as it ages. Nice press that should last forever!

[MiaBella Farm]

Thanks for the response. You are probably right....Man you are like my wife. 

HA HA...At least I am not the ONLY one giving you a hard time...thanks guys for backing me up LOL!!!
Michelle

[linuxboy]

Let me know if I should start a new thread with this. Here is the process I went through...I decided to go ahead and do regular cheddar instead of farmhouse. I was also running two 4 gallon batches at the same time staggering them about 8 minutes apart.

Let me know what I should change and where should I be checking PH and for what number. THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 Gallon Batch (Will be doing 22 gallons batches once the vat arrives and packing into 10 pound kodova molds)
Heat Goat Milk to 87 degrees
Add 7 oz Mother Culture (New cultures will be here Monday from Dairy Connection so I will use MA 11)
Ripen for 45 min

Check pH before adding anything, after adding culture, and after waiting for 30 mins if using DVI. Looking for a .02 drop with DVI so you know the culture is active. So far so good on the temp and 1.5% starter culture. Not sure why you're ripening when using a starter culture. The reason you ripen with DVI is because the bacteria need to wake up. If you ripen with a starter culture at 1.5%, you're effectively adding 2-2.5% because the bacteria have time to go through at least one replication cycle.

Add 1/8 tsp Annatto
Add just over ¼ tsp double strength vegetable rennet diluted in ¼ cup water

Interesting, your rennet must be strong to do 1/4 for 4 gal. If you want to be more precise, get a small 1 ml (for 4 gal) or larger for the large batch syringe from your vet cabinet and use that to measure out the rennet. Or if you have any lab supplies, a pipette works. Using ml is more accurate. You can also drop with a dropper and measure the weight if you have a good gram scale that goes out to .001. Easier to replicate with more exact measurements.

Check Flocculation at 10 min....Bowl does not spin. Multiplier x3 so 30 min cut curd

Good so far, except I'm surprised it set so quickly. Maye use even less rennet? 10 mins is my bare min for an aged cheese. Using less rennet helps with achieving a more gentle proteolysis, more layered flavors. Rennet continues to work on the caseins even after the cheese is in the aging room. Too much can lead to bitter cheese. Not enough can lead to very slow flavor development. Try your cheeses at 2 months, 5 months, 10 months, and 12 months to see how they are coming along, and adjust rennet if necessary.

Cut curds 1/2 inch (will do 3/8 when I have the vat)
Heat curds to 100 degrees over 40 mins
Hold curds at 100 degrees for 30 mins
Drain into colander

So far you've kept live and active culture in contact with the milk for 45 + 30 +40 + 30 = 145 mins? Is that right? That's a long cooking time. For a cheddar, you should be somewhere around 30-45 mins from adding rennet, and another 30-45 mins after, and the curds should be ready to drain then. pH at drain for cheddar ranges from 6.0 to 6.2. The range is because there are different cheddars out there. The tradeoff is time in cheddaring. Some prefer to cheddar only enough time to fuse the curd, and then cut. Some prefer the curd to be fused well and be a little more dry at the end of cheddaring, and take longer. Many recipes will drain right around 6.1 as a tradeoff.

Anyway, measure the pH here. Whey drain pH is vital to measure. Keep in mind that as the curds settle, the whey right on top of them will be more acidic than the overall whey if you do not stir. So either drain enough to the point where you can measure whey directly on top, or stir the curds around to even out the acid.

Put 1/3 whey back into pot and place colander over whey on top of pot flipping slaps every 15 min for 45 mins (again with the vat I will just move the curds to the back of the vat when I have it and stack them on each other rotating every 20 mins over 60 min.)

You're cheddaring in the whey? Interesting. You don't get trapped whey pockets in the cheese this way, it all drains out when you mill? Measure pH here, but measure as close as possible in the cheese as you can. whey and cheese pH start to diverge sharply after you drain, so it's important to take proper measurements.

Cut slaps into French fries 2-4 inches long
3/4 tbl salt mix in well
20 pounds 30 mins
Flip 20 pounds 30 mins
Flip 50 pounds 12 hours
Flip 50 pounds 12 hours
Remove from mold and air dry 2-3 days

Salt pH at 5.4-5.5. Again, depends on the style of cheese you're making and the time it takes from mill to press. General target is 5.4.

Just curious, why so long in the press, and why the choice to use a light weight? Measure pH after molding, should be in the 4.9-5.1 range.

[TroyG]

Let me know if I should start a new thread with this. Here is the process I went through...I decided to go ahead and do regular cheddar instead of farmhouse. I was also running two 4 gallon batches at the same time staggering them about 8 minutes apart.

Let me know what I should change and where should I be checking PH and for what number. THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 Gallon Batch (Will be doing 22 gallons batches once the vat arrives and packing into 10 pound kodova molds)
Heat Goat Milk to 87 degrees
Add 7 oz Mother Culture (New cultures will be here Monday from Dairy Connection so I will use MA 11)
Ripen for 45 min

Check pH before adding anything, after adding culture, and after waiting for 30 mins if using DVI. Looking for a .02 drop with DVI so you know the culture is active. So far so good on the temp and 1.5% starter culture. Not sure why you're ripening when using a starter culture. The reason you ripen with DVI is because the bacteria need to wake up. If you ripen with a starter culture at 1.5%, you're effectively adding 2-2.5% because the bacteria have time to go through at least one replication cycle.

I was storing my starter at 33 degrees so I thought it would still need time to wake up since it was so cold. Of course now I will be using my DVI cultures I got today.

Add 1/8 tsp Annatto
Add just over ¼ tsp double strength vegetable rennet diluted in ¼ cup water

Interesting, your rennet must be strong to do 1/4 for 4 gal. If you want to be more precise, get a small 1 ml (for 4 gal) or larger for the large batch syringe from your vet cabinet and use that to measure out the rennet. Or if you have any lab supplies, a pipette works. Using ml is more accurate. You can also drop with a dropper and measure the weight if you have a good gram scale that goes out to .001. Easier to replicate with more exact measurements.

Don't have my notes in front of me, but if I recall the instructions I was following called for 3/4 tsp single strength rennet. So .75 tsp......Goat milk needs less rennet (so I have read...about 20%) so I come up with .60 well then we take into account that I am using double strength so I am at .30 or just a little more than 1/4 tsp .25. I have some pipette so I will start using those....Much better way...DUH....

.001 gram or oz? Like this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260570222849&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=%3F*F%3F&GUID=5801dfd71260a0aad4938fb3ffc8c545&itemid=260570222849&ff4=263602_263622

Check Flocculation at 10 min....Bowl does not spin. Multiplier x3 so 30 min cut curd

Good so far, except I'm surprised it set so quickly. Maye use even less rennet? 10 mins is my bare min for an aged cheese. Using less rennet helps with achieving a more gentle proteolysis, more layered flavors. Rennet continues to work on the caseins even after the cheese is in the aging room. Too much can lead to bitter cheese. Not enough can lead to very slow flavor development. Try your cheeses at 2 months, 5 months, 10 months, and 12 months to see how they are coming along, and adjust rennet if necessary.

I was very surprised as well. When I lifted the bowl out it left a spot where it came from. It was very much jell like. Had I check at 8 min which I didn't it may have already been good.  When trying the cheese over time do you take a core sample or cut the cheese in two?

quote author=TroyG link=topic=3560.msg27976#msg27976 date=1270391768]
Cut curds 1/2 inch (will do 3/8 when I have the vat)
Heat curds to 100 degrees over 40 mins
Hold curds at 100 degrees for 30 mins
Drain into colander

So far you've kept live and active culture in contact with the milk for 45 + 30 +40 + 30 = 145 mins? Is that right? That's a long cooking time. For a cheddar, you should be somewhere around 30-45 mins from adding rennet, and another 30-45 mins after, and the curds should be ready to drain then. pH at drain for cheddar ranges from 6.0 to 6.2. The range is because there are different cheddars out there. The tradeoff is time in cheddaring. Some prefer to cheddar only enough time to fuse the curd, and then cut. Some prefer the curd to be fused well and be a little more dry at the end of cheddaring, and take longer. Many recipes will drain right around 6.1 as a tradeoff.

Anyway, measure the pH here. Whey drain pH is vital to measure. Keep in mind that as the curds settle, the whey right on top of them will be more acidic than the overall whey if you do not stir. So either drain enough to the point where you can measure whey directly on top, or stir the curds around to even out the acid.
[/quote]
I had not cooked it so long in the past, but I was following Margaret's book for this one. Those are the correct times. Perhaps I misunderstood the instructions.
45 min ripen, rennet 30 min cut curd, heat over 40 min, cook additional 30 min, then cheddar over 45 min.
My PH meter will be here this week, so I will be able to start working off those numbers instead of time.  I will write out what I believe to be the correct process and post it for your review.

quote author=TroyG link=topic=3560.msg27976#msg27976 date=1270391768]
Put 1/3 whey back into pot and place colander over whey on top of pot flipping slaps every 15 min for 45 mins (again with the vat I will just move the curds to the back of the vat when I have it and stack them on each other rotating every 20 mins over 60 min.)

You're cheddaring in the whey? Interesting. You don't get trapped whey pockets in the cheese this way, it all drains out when you mill? Measure pH here, but measure as close as possible in the cheese as you can. whey and cheese pH start to diverge sharply after you drain, so it's important to take proper measurements.
[/quote]
No I am not cheddaring in the whey.  I have the colander resting on top of the pot with the whey below it not touching. The whey is just being kept hot so warmth is rising up and keeping the curds warm during the cheddaring process. Not really sure I need to do this way, but again I was following the instructions I had. When I get my vat I will just perform this step in the vat after I have drained off the whey.   

So here I would be taking the PH of the curds in the colander correct? What PH do I want to cut (make my French fries) at?

quote author=TroyG link=topic=3560.msg27976#msg27976 date=1270391768]
Cut slaps into French fries 2-4 inches long
3/4 tbl salt mix in well
20 pounds 30 mins
Flip 20 pounds 30 mins
Flip 50 pounds 12 hours
Flip 50 pounds 12 hours
Remove from mold and air dry 2-3 days

Salt pH at 5.4-5.5. Again, depends on the style of cheese you're making and the time it takes from mill to press. General target is 5.4.

Just curious, why so long in the press, and why the choice to use a light weight? Measure pH after molding, should be in the 4.9-5.1 range.
[/quote]
I really was a little lost when it came press time. The different books I have looked through are all over the place so I tried to go middle of the road. What would you suggest for pressing? I am pressing two molds with 4 pounds of cheese in each at the same time.

Thanks for all the help! Hopefully others will learn from my mistakes.    

[linuxboy]

I was storing my starter at 33 degrees so I thought it would still need time to wake up since it was so cold. Of course now I will be using my DVI cultures I got today.

Well, that's kind of true. When you store culture just above freezing, the bacteria enters into a state of quasi-suspension. It "sleeps". But when you raise the temp, and bring the pH back up, those two things trigger metabolism to kick up again. This lag phase is only several minutes long, unlike the 30-45 min lag phase that it takes with DVI culture. DVI culture muse first rehydrate, then do some internal structural checks, then start metabolysis. Practically, this means you can eliminate the ripening time... unless you're deliberately underpitching or want the bacterial colonies to build up.

Don't have my notes in front of me, but if I recall the instructions I was following called for 3/4 tsp single strength rennet. So .75 tsp......Goat milk needs less rennet (so I have read...about 20%) so I come up with .60 well then we take into account that I am using double strength so I am at .30 or just a little more than 1/4 tsp .25. I have some pipette so I will start using those....Much better way...DUH....

so .75 tsp for 4 gals milk? They must be targetting a floc at around 15-18 mins with that rennet schedule. It's a decent target.  Seems like your rennet is very strong or milk very good, or both. Try even less next time to get to a 12-15 min target. Of course, in this case, it's hard to tell, because with such a long ripening time, the acid likely developed, meaning lower pH, and rennet works better at lower pHs.

I use a pipette or a syringe. Really easy to tell the markings.

.001 gram or oz? Like this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260570222849&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=%3F*F%3F&GUID=5801dfd71260a0aad4938fb3ffc8c545&itemid=260570222849&ff4=263602_263622

Gram. You want a scale that measures out your culture exactly, and if you want, your rennet. With such tiny amounts of culture, a .01 or even .001 gram scale really helps. Something like what the jewelers use is good.  .001 is a bit overkill, unless you find a good deal on it. A decent $10-$20 scale works just fine.

I was very surprised as well. When I lifted the bowel out it left a spot where it came from. It was very much jell like. Had I check at 8 min which I didn't it may have already been good.  When trying the cheese over time do you take a core sample or cut the cheese in two?

Use a trier, check maturity all along from the inside of the core to the outside. I don't cut, no need, unless there's a cheese defect and I want to see what is actually inside.

I had not cooked it so long in the past, but I was following Margaret's book for this one. Those are the correct times. Perhaps I misunderstood the instructions.
45 min ripen, rennet 30 min cut curd, heat over 40 min, cook additional 30 min, then cheddar over 45 min.
My PH meter will be here this week, so I will be able to start working off those numbers instead of time.  I will write out what I believe to be the correct process and post it for your review.

No, that's right. That recipe opts for a lower pH at drain, and then less cheddaring time. IIRC, most cheddaring times are somewhere between 2 and 3 hours, meaning whey drain at a 6.0-6.2 pH. That recipe does things a little differently, which will produce a more acidic and more crumbly cheddar. It's valid for a cheddar style, just not the flavor profile I personally prefer. I like sharp, slight brothy and sulfur notes, cream, meaty mouthfeel with balanced moisture, buttery on the mid palate, and finishing off with a tangy, slightly sour, and ever so slightly bitter/sharp in the end, then moving back into a full umami profile. To get this, you drain around 6.1, salt at 5.4, age for a year.

No I am not cheddaring in the whey.  I have the colander resting on top of the pot with the whey below it not touching. The whey is just being kept hot so warmth is rising up and keeping the curds warm during the cheddaring process. Not really sure I need to do this way, but again I was following the instructions I had. When I get my vat I will just perform this step in the vat after I have drained off the whey.   

So here I would be taking the PH of the curds in the colander correct? What PH do I want to cut (make my French fries) at?

Oh sorry, misunderstood. Clever to use the whey for heat . Yes, pH of curd, whey pH is useless at this point. You cut at ~5.4-5.5, and salt at 5.4. I sometimes salt at 5.5 if the acid builds up too quickly. I compare the pH vs time with previous makes. So say last cheese it took 3 hours to get to 5.7 and this cheese it took 2.5. Obviously, the acid is building up faster, and I need to cut and salt just a tad sooner.

I really was a little lost when it came press time. The different books I have looked through are all over the place so I tried to go middle of the road. What would you suggest for pressing? I am pressing two molds with 4 pounds of cheese in each at the same time.

Thanks for all the help! Hopefully others will learn from my mistakes.

Well, commercially, cheddar is pressed under thousands of pounds of press, and is prepressed in the column as well. I would suggest keeping the ambient room temp high, at least 70, and if possible putting into warm molds, and pressing with several hundred pounds, if possible. Those milled curd pieces need a lot of pressure to come together again. If you want to sell the cheddar, might want to look into a pneumatic press.

I wouldn't say you made mistakes. That should produce a decent cheese. Some tweaks will help, though.

[TroyG]

I will try to work this into a process and make some more cheese this weekend. Then I can report back how things flowed.

Yea seem the .001g scales get real $$$$ where the .01g cost next to nothing.

Say I want to put 100  or 200 pounds how long should I press it for? Does the amount of weight shorten the pressing time? Oh and should I press with lighter weight flip press again flip and then hit it with the real heavy weight?

.....EDIT......

Found this one and the price is decent.
http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-Gemini-20-Portable-Milligram/dp/B0012TDNAM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1270493699&sr=8-2

[linuxboy]

Here's the same one for half the price http://cgi.ebay.com/0-001g-20g-Digital-Jewelry-Diamond-Pocket-0-001-g-Scale_W0QQitemZ270540076624QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efd71f650

but, IMHO, .001 is overkill, especially once you start making larger volumes. It's only really useful for 1-2 gallon batches. Then again, ebay has some good deals.

What I like to do is get a big pack that will last me half a year, then light a bunsen burner (to kill any airborne bacteria floating in the air while I work), and weigh out individual batches based on the total weight of the packet and the units it has per manufacturer. Saves me the effort of using too many tools during the cheesemake.

[TroyG]

Wow that one is cheap! Thanks man! I will be doing the smaller batches until the end of May then we will be working with much larger.

When dividing your culture how do you repackage it? Ziplock bags?

What do you think about the pressing weight? 

Thanks for all the help!

[linuxboy]

Yep, not sure they're ziplock brand, but they're the ultra small ones that close. I think they're like 2"x2" ? I bought a 500-pack of them for a few bucks. They're technically not sterile, but I've never had issues with contamination from them.

With regard to weight, this is tough to give you an exact answer because it depends. If you have a heated mold and manage to raise the heat of the curd after salting, you need much less weight. Similar with ambient room temp -- it helps with knit. Personally, I haven't seen much difference in starting with a lower weight and then increasing it vs just pressing with a known weight. A few hundred pounds are a good start with cheddar. Try it and see; this is one of those things where there are too many right answers.

I've gotten great knit before with several hundred pounds of weight, and sometimes not. Maybe start out with what you can, and then if you have poor knit, post a picture and we can take a look to see if the openings are mechanical or bacterial. I will say that with cheddar, it's almost like you can't press it with too much weight. Big cheddar plants really crank up the PSI and form under vacuum for a good knit.

Consider building in a pneumatic or off the wall system so if you need a few thousands pounds, you can get it. Or live with openings... I personally think openings add character.

[TroyG]

Cool...I like the bag idea. Thanks! How long have you been making aged cheese?

I understand what you are saying about weight. I keep my room 72 degrees, so that should help and we are super humid down here.

Are there any pros or cons to press for 24 hours?