Reblochons taking a strange turn?

[MarkShelton]

I had the same situation Deb. I thought 1.5 was too low, but I kept seeing 1.5 so that's what I used. With the higher floc, I won't have as much milkfat loss when I cut.

[iratherfly]

Pam - this looks gorgeous! How does it smell? Yes, a bit more gooey and you would be perfect. (Also perhaps do a thinner traditional disk. May also have something with the maturation speed/quality).

Linuxboy - I wonder how come in Tomme over acidifying the milk makes for a dry chalky cheese and in Reblochon or Camembert it gives you that wonderful soft goo. Do you know?

I tried not to give it too much fluc time in this batch because I was afraid of dry chalky cheese as some of my past Tomme disasters. Is this why my Reblochons are not getting as soft as I want them? (I think they are day 53 now) I am a bit confused. I know that some Tommes should acidify in the press and not in the vat. I wonder if I should acidify Reblochons more in the vat too.

I am ready to declare the current Reblochons a bust ...but instead, I'll just rename them "Petit Tomme"; (Tomlochon?) as such they are quite a success. They have very complex stench now and after a few days in wrapping they are becoming softer and re-covering themselves with Geo and some blue-gray mold (probably courtesy of the Raw Milk Tomme next to them in the cave, covered with Mycodore). I think this would be an incredible cheese actually, just not Reblochon 

[Boofer]

OK, cut into this last night, at 39 days old. I wrapped the other one in parchment paper and put it back in the ripening box. It is a mild cheese, texture very good. Quite a delicious cheese, I'll definitely make this again.
Question: I used 1.5 as my floc multiplier. On another current thread, there is a discussion about floc multipliers:cheese moisture content. If I think this should be a tad softer cheese, would I extend the time before cutting curds to accomplish this?
Thanks,
Pam

That looks great!  It almost looks like the texture I'm expecting in my Esrom, but a little firmer.

How does it taste? Smell?

-Boofer-

[linuxboy]

Linuxboy - I wonder how come in Tomme over acidifying the milk makes for a dry chalky cheese and in Reblochon or Camembert it gives you that wonderful soft goo. Do you know?

Sure, it's because the affinage process and maturation factors are different. With Tomme what you have it an initial solid knit to bond caseins together through colloidal calcium phosphate. This is the glue by which curds bond. Then you let the acid build up AFTER all those bonds are there. If you don't get a good knit initially because the bonds are weak what happens is that there's all this calcium all around the curds and it's left in there  to be broken up but not as colloidal calcium. And what happens is that as the cheese ages, it influences the ability of the proteins to form a proper paste during proteolysis. so it's the initial knit that matters.

With camembert, it's a completely different maturation process where Geo eats lactic acid and releases all sorts of proteolytic enzymes. The strength there depends almost solely on the calcium content. That protein is so severely broken up by the mold enzymes that the as that proteolysis happens and the cheese turns to a goo, the calcium supports the cheese. If you ladle at a high pH, there will be less calcium degradation and the cheese will be a little firmer. Also, ladling of curds instead of cutting makes for a completely different curd. Also the final moisture content influences the rate of proteolysis.

If you were to eat a Tomme de Savoie with the black mold and the cheese was overacidified, it wouldn't be as noticeable as say, a tomme de bauges. Why? Savoie has mold, it softens the paste significantly.

[iratherfly]

I read this 3 times until I figured out what you are saying... It makes perfect sense. What would be the ideal pH levels in your opinion for Camembert with cut curd, Camembert with ladling, Reblochon, and for your average Tomme where I expect mold and a soft paste (such as Tomme Crayeuse)?

Now that I have a brand spankin' new Extech heavy duty pH meter it is perhaps time to revisit the pH measuring again. (I am ordering the flat surface low moisture probe too, suggested for cheese use)

[linuxboy]

I read this 3 times until I figured out what you are saying... It makes perfect sense. What would be the ideal pH levels in your opinion for Camembert with cut curd, Camembert with ladling, Reblochon, and for your average Tomme where I expect mold and a soft paste (such as Tomme Crayeuse)?

Now that I have a brand spankin' new Extech heavy duty pH meter it is perhaps time to revisit the pH measuring again. (I am ordering the flat surface low moisture probe too, suggested for cheese use)

You had to read it 3 times? I had to read that 5 times to understand it. And I wrote the bloody thing. Crimey. Sorry.

Think about it like this: cheese is mostly about the calcium interaction:

- Initial action of rennet (enzymatic phase) to cleave k-caseins? It's to expose the other caseins and their calcium
- Bonding of as1, as2, b caseins? Those are calcium phosphate bonds.
- What makes those bonds happen? Free calcium in the milk, that's why we add CaCl2 to try and get a better bond.
- And then for acidity. Why do we preripen or ripen? To destroy some of those calcium bonds inside the micelle, which softens the final cheese, and makes the curd retain fat and moisture a little better.
- Why do we drain some cheeses at high pH and some at low? To time the relative degree of calcium degradation, which corresponds to acidity.
- Why do we cut some curd and ladle others? Curd size is more for moisture, but it does help with calcium retention.
- Why does curd fuse together again and knit? You guessed it, calcium bonds. You've just removed water to hit a final moisture target, and then bring the curd together again. That's why microfiltered cheese is made from milk with the target fats and solids already in it, no need to drain and bring curd together.
- Why do we salt or brine at around pH 5.4? Yep, again, the calcium has buffered the acid to such a point as to open up the micelles, which will make it possible for them to fuse and form a final paste after aging. If you don't do that and have high calcium, then need to use a bacteria with very active proteases, like thermophilic lactobacilli.
- Why do we add calcium to new brine? Same story, ionic balance between curd and solute.
- Why does cheesecloth stick? Yep (it's the calcium, mostly, relative moisture plays a part, but it's interactive not solely causal).

To put this into practice:

Cam is tricky, traditionally it is preripened overnight with something like .2% bulk equivalent, then repasteurized. Then ripened normally, then renneted, then ladled. The point of ladling is also tricky . If you ladle at higher pH, say 6.3 the cam will be more stable. It will resemble more a stabilized cam because there will be more calcium. If you ladle at lower pH, say 6.0, it will age faster and be runny and gooey. This is assuming same affinage. Affinage has a lot to do with cams, esp temp. Lower temp = slower aging. Ladling vs cutting cam is really about moisture. To get something with a longer shelf life, target lower moisture and cut the curd.

tomme cut pH is a completely different story. It's the moisture and mold activity that gives tomme its soft paste. Moisture is due to high floc, low cook temp, and light press. Moisture gives it pliability, mold breaks down the proteins, makes it more soft.

You should use pH when starting out unless you have a mentor, because in the beginning, everything looks about the same, and you can have a .5 pH drop and not realize it. Takes time to understand and listen to what the milk and curds are telling you. The flat surface probes work well, easier to clean, as do ISFET.

[Brie]

That was totally informing,Linux--thanks so much for postingl. You do spend an inordinate amount of time educating us and I fully appreciate the wealth of information you provide. You are officially the "Big Cheese" of this website. (Along with Sailor, Deb and Francois, of course). My brie bows to you.

[DeejayDebi]

Well I cut another one of the reblochons tonight to see if it was any better after another few weeks wrapped in freezer paper. It's not as hot out so it stayed a bit firmer after sitting out for an hour. I think Alex said something about holes. There k hole until it melts.

I tried it again and I still don't like it. Kind of a slight bitter after taste on the back of my throat after eattng it. I even bought one from the Whole Food Store to compare and they taste very much alike except mine is way creamier tasting. I love the texture but not the taste. Still don't like those rinds! Yuck!

[mtncheesemaker]

Boofer, sorry it took me a while to reply to your question. Honestly, I'm having a tough time describing my cheese.
It has a pretty faint B. linens smell, definitely there but not unpleasant. The cheese is very mild and I think the texture is firmer than it should be. I'm going to make it again with a longer floc time and see if it is softer. It's delicious in a sandwich, or cooked with potatoes and pancetta.
How is your Esrom doing? I've never tasted that particular cheese. Interesting how different all these washed rind types are!
Pam

[Boofer]

How is your Esrom doing? I've never tasted that particular cheese. Interesting how different all these washed rind types are!
Pam

Well, I'm not sure how it's doing since this is my first foray into washed rinds.

I'm posting to my Esrom thread right after this with a few lingering questions.

-Boofer-

[iratherfly]

Okay, I know it's been a long time but I've been traveling.  Felt like I awed everyone on this thread the ending to the story.

As it turns out I was right; these Reblochons indeed took a strange turn. I think that initial milk acidity was wrong and they must have been doomed from day one.

However... After looking at these crazy smelly rinds and the overly firm cheese I figured that instead of throwing them away I should just work the rind and finish aging them as small Tommes. That was a good idea; When I opened them (day 75) they were full of aroma and packed with very complex flavor (Strangely out of season, felt like it belongs in winter).

I traveled to Israel with 14 of my cheeses and got met Alex who got a good tasting of it too. One last cheese remained in my cave in NYC and when I returned I found it to have caught Geo and Cylindrocarpon from a neighboring cheese. That second one was even better: a deep rustic rind of mustard-gray-white color spots with the added mushrominess of cylindrocarpon. No Reblochon yet ( ...but good accident )

So here they are, my Reblochon failures turned excellent Tommes:

[Boofer]

Wow, I love the rind texturing and the look of that cut cheese. Looks fantastic. Taste? That seems to cry out for a bit of crusty bread and wine.

What did you use to form that full-of-character rind?

-Boofer-

[iratherfly]

Well, following this thread, these started out as Reblochons that I wanted to get a bit stronger so I washed them with bacterial brine instead of simple brine. I washed them for the first 2-3 weeks maybe. (washed less after the color came out). The brine contained some B.Linen, yeast, and 3% salt. The first thing to come out was the Geo (white). Then the B.Linen showed and the geo receided. At this point I added a pinch of geo to the bacterial wash and it helped bringing it back. For a while they smelled likenasty socks which were used to put out cigarettes. Then I wrapped them (must have been 50 days old by then) and the aroma sharpened into that right cheese direction. As I mentioned above, the last cheese remained in the cave a bit longer and caught on that gray cylindrocarpon from a neighboring cheese. Enough to make a beautiful rind but too late to give the cheese that mushroom/earth note that cylindrocarpon is famous for. The complex shapes and nice thickness can be attributed to the yeast. I am now focusing my entire cheesemaking on figuring out big beautiful flavorful rinds.

The flavor was great, very warm and slightly buttery, almost too rich. Bread and wine are perfect for it. It would pair nicely with fruity full body reds, maybe Côtes du Rhône or Carmenère. ...but since it was breakfast I needed coffee and let go of the wine, but I did bake a crusty bread to go with it! It's an old rustic recipe that I make in a German terracotta bakeware. My sister came down with a jam she made from figs in the tree in her back yard. Feast!

[Brie]

I can just imagine your trip with Alex--a week of collaboration (fondue?).  Keep us abreast of what you two conjure up. We want pics and recipes

[iratherfly]

Haha, it wasn't a trip with Alex. Alex is from my hometown where my parents and sister's family live. Flying in with 14 wheels of cheeses of course meant meeting up with Alex too! We spent great time together and did a mutual cheese tasting. His wife is an exceptional baker so there was great bread to go with it too. Of course, I couldn't turn down a gorgeous dutch cheese press from "The Cheesepenter" himself. Photos below. (I know the lever on the press is reversed, I packed it like that for shipping)