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Rennet Coagulated Curds - Amount For Different Cheese Type Discussion

Started by steffb503, May 14, 2011, 04:12:07 PM

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susanky

So Sorry!  We hijacked your thread.  When you say 3/4 tsp 'worked well' do you mean it gave you the floc time you were looking for?  If it gave you just want you wanted, then you double the milk and double the rennet.  So if 3/4 tsp for 3 gallons, then 1 1/2tsp for 6 gallons.

I think the point is that that amount could be perfect today and need adjusting in a couple of months if the milk changes.  I imagine this is less of an issue with commercially produced milk where the cows are always fed the same, as opposed to getting it from the local farmer.  Though I don't know this to be a fact.
Susan

linuxboy

Because families of cheeses have usually a very tight variance for their levels of calcium and their levels of moisture. Those two things are determined by the rennet ph, cut pH, cut size, drain pH, and salt pH. Meaning you can't compare an alpine style where you might add rennet at 6.6, vs a tomme where you rennet at 6.55 or 6.5. Or a bloomy rind where you rennet at 6.45-6.5. Or a semi-lactic where you rennet at 6.0-6.2.

Does that make sense? Each family is a technology of cheese. Everything about it, from starter selection to starter amount, to stir time to curd size, etc, it all works together. Much of the time when we make cheese, we're making one cheese with minor variations along the continuum. That's why most cheeses use a 3/8" curd, for example.

We talk about the thousands of flavor possibilities with cheese, but during the make, there are maybe 4-5 major variables. Affinage is responsible for the rest.

Steff, when you think about recipe scaling, don't think in terms of all these inexact measurements? Who the heck knows what exactly a 3/4 tsp is. Take a small syringe, like what you use for kids... a 3 cc from jeffers or wherever you get your meds, and measure out in ml. And use this conversion:

for 100 lbs regular goat milk
use 8-10 ml single strength (200 IMCU) rennet for hard and semi-hard cheeses (not semi-lactic types)
each gallon of goat milk is about 8.6 lbs. Convert accordingly. For example, if your rennet is double strength, use 4-5 ml per 100 lbs. If you have 2 gallons, that's 17.2 lbs. And then do the basic match and figure out your measurement in ml, and draw it up into your syringe and call it a day.

Then check floc. Say you start out with the 8 ml/100 lb. If that gives you a long floc, then next time, use 9 ml. Still too long? use 10 ml. Shouldn't need more than that. If you do, need to troubleshoot your milk, maybe add CaCl2, etc. If you use this method, you can practice on a gallon or less because that small syringe lets you be really really precise. Then you can scale up and what worked for a gallon will work for 1,000 gallons.

linuxboy

QuoteI think the point is that that amount could be perfect today and need adjusting in a couple of months if the milk changes.
This is an excellent point. Many small producers will have 4 "recipes" for the same cheese to account for seasonal fluctuation. For example, in the summer, I find the goats drink more water, and the milk is a tad thinner, so I will adjust my rennet up a little to achieve the same time to floc. I will also make different cheese... for example tomme in the summer, and lactic types in the winter.

Sailor Con Queso

I have been having a lot of milk fluctuations over the past 2 months with both floc times and yield. My Mennonite milk supplier told me some things that helped me understand the fluctuations better. During the Winter, cows drink less water so the milk is richer. During the Summer they drink more, and as Pav pointed out, the milk actually gets thinner. But the farmer also explained that cows can self regulate their body temperature until the air temp hits 68F. After that they have to start drinking more water to thermo-regulate. For the past 6 weeks or so our weather has been all over the map. Just a few days ago it was in the upper 80s here. Today it was in the low 50s and tomorrow night it's supposed to get down to 42F. There's no way that a cow's milk can be consistent with such rapidly changing conditions.

To further complicate things, we discussed wet vs dry silage for feeding the animals. Wet silage means more water in the cows stomachs, often when they really don't need extra water to thermo-regulate. I'm probably opening up a can of worms here, but he felt that some farmers are just lazy or in too big of a hurry to dry their hay and grains properly. Some will cut in the morning and bale in the same afternoon, leaving way too much moisture. He explained that wet silage will also ferment instead of digesting properly and that too will impact the milk quality. Apparently the poor digestion can cause the cows to develop ketosis, a metabolic disorder that occurs when energy demands exceed energy intake and result in a negative energy balance. Legume and grass silages containing high levels of butyric acid and other nitrogen-containing compounds reduce silage palatability and increases the risk of ketosis by increasing the supply of ketone precursors to cattle.

There are urine and blood tests for the condition, but he says that he can smell the ketones in a cow's breath.

To put that into a human perspective, Ketones in the urine, common in type 1 diabetes, is a sign that your body is using fat for energy because not enough insulin is available to utilize glucose. Doctors of old used to actually taste a sample of a patient's urine to test for diabetes. And many diabetics have been mistakenly charged with intoxication because of the Ketone smell on their breath.

Not wanting to further hijack the thread, so back to the point. These are more reasons to use the flocculation method and not simple recipe directions. The amount of rennet that you need to use is not a constant.

arkc

Mr. Sailor,

Your information makes it sound as though each and every time we make any cheese, we
will need to do a flocc test prior to the actual make.  Is there any way we can extrapolate
the information from a smaller batch.  For example, can we test 1/2 gallon and expand the
results to 6 or 8 gallons? 

A secondary question, how will this testing impact the actual 'do'?  It will obviously take
time, therefore changing the 'freshness' of our milk and thereby affect the actual making
of our cheese.

annie

linuxboy

Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on May 16, 2011, 12:47:12 AM
Apparently the poor digestion can cause the cows to develop ketosis, a metabolic disorder that occurs when energy demands exceed energy intake and result in a negative energy balance. Legume and grass silages containing high levels of butyric acid and other nitrogen-containing compounds reduce silage palatability and increases the risk of ketosis by increasing the supply of ketone precursors to cattle.

There are urine and blood tests for the condition, but he says that he can smell the ketones in a cow's breath.
It's true, the breath has a sweet ketone-y smell in ketosis. Very distinctive. IMHO, unless related to liver lipidosis and poor pre-partum management, feed management rarely actually leads to ketosis. It's possible, of course, but from the studies I have read, changes at parturition help to bring about ketosis in a way that's still not very well understood. Some of what we do know is that when the liver lipidosis happens, it can't oxidize fatty acids (nonesterified fatty acids) into triglycerides. A common cause is the selective catabolysis of fats over other types of energy sources. So what I'm trying to say is that genetics and pre-partum management have quite a lot to do with it, and not just silage and moisture levels. So, IMHO, I don't buy that explanation completely. Silage vs dry is more about digestibility to me and ratio of the types of proteins (bypass/RUP, NP, RDP, etc)

With temperature it's more simple. Heat loss by the body and rate of heat loss have to equal heat conditions for homeostasis to occur. High temp requires high perspiration, requires lots of water. What also helps is reduced feed intake and lower milk production. So to counteract, we balance salt levels by giving salt to animals and encourage consumption, and also make water available. It helps to maintain milk production, and also helps to keep solids up.

Anyway, yes, floc measurement is important. No, typically you only need to make 4-5 big adjustments in a year, if that. More consistent with pooled milk, and rather predictable.

Sailor Con Queso

Arkc (Annie)

No, it's impossible to micromanage every make. What you look for are trends and as LB says bigger somewhat predictable adjustments 4-5 times a year. If you are using store bought "pooled" milk there are less variations because of the large number of cows in the "pool". If you are using raw milk from a single cow, there are going to be constant variations.

So what to do? First of all, don't stress out. Variations in floc time are normal and expected. That's why we use the flocculation method. Just use a consistent floc multiplier and everything will be fine. Assume that you are making a cheese and using a multiplier of 3 as an easy example. With a floc time of 10 minutes you would let the curds setup for 30 minutes (3x10). With a floc time of 15 minutes the curds should setup for 45 minutes (3x15). That will compensate for the variation in floc time.

You could test a small batch and then extrapolate, but that's really overkill. Keep it simple. Test the floc time every time you make cheese, take notes, and adjust accordingly on your next make. For example, I like a floc time of about 15 minutes, so when I see my floc time trending down (less time to floc) I will add less rennet the next time. When I see it trending up (more time) I add more rennet to the next batch. The adjustments are usually very small but can magnify over time if you become complacent and don't do the floc test.

I absolutely agree with Pav on measuring. Teaspoon or tablespoon measurements are really inconsistent and inaccurate for fluids. There's no such thing as a "level" teaspoon with liquids. A syringe is good, but I use small graduated cylinders marked in ml. Ideally you want a measuring device that is as close as possible to the volume that you need, so I have 5, 10, 25, 50 and 100 ml cylinders. Cheap and easy to find on EBay. On small batches, you can also count drops.


arkc

Aren't flocc times different for different cheese?  Does the following quote mean that you like
a flocc time of 15 minutes for all cheeses?

"For example, I like a floc time of about 15 minutes,"/i]

Thanks for your answers,

annie

steffb503

Thanks.
I was always under the impression that rennet was not doubled. And I guess it really is not. Many recipes use the same amount for 2-4 gallons.
I am doing a 6 gallon batch today, I will use ml instead, yup got lots of syringes.

I will let you know how it works out.

Sailor Con Queso

Steff, I can't emphasize enough that recipe books are all wrong. How can they suggest that you use the same amount of rennet for 2 or 4 gallons, twice the amount of milk and the same rennet??? The recipe books are simplistic and most will not give you consistent results. Again, that's why you should use the flocculation method.

Arkc - Every cheese uses a different floc multiplier, but floc time should stay relatively consistent for MOST cheeses. The multiplier that you use is a personal preference and not an exact science. Short floc times can lead to bitter flavors, so I have standardized the cheeses that I make at 15 minutes (or in the neighborhood). That also works well with acidity and pH curves for my cheeses. If the curds set really fast, then the cheese doesn't have enough time to develop the proper acidity. Too slow and you can over shoot the pH targets at cutting and draining.

I do not make bloomy rind or soft cheeses, so I can't speak to their needs. I'm sure Pav can offer some constructive advice.

ArnaudForestier

Quote from: SailorConQuesoToo slow and you can over shoot the pH targets at cutting and draining.

Hadn't thought of this, Sailor.  I'm sticking with Beauforts for the foreseeable future (with the occasional reblochon make, so we don't go nuts waiting).  I know the Beaufort AOC points to up to 25 minutes, and I get the reasoning behind a longer floc; I've gotten really satisfying results with the curd texture in the vat shooting for, and generally achieving, about 20 minutes (the last several have varied between 19:10-19:50 minutes).  That said, because of adventitious meso SLABs in my milk, I do find I'm getting a much faster ripening, and acid curve, than I would really like. 

My bent is probably known, and that is to a longer, slower everything; I see, though, that as usual in nature, I've got competing forces at play here, and your above notion is really helpful, many thanks.  I'll shoot for a floc for somewhere around 12-15 minutes, and a total renneting of 36-45 minutes, over the hour of my last (and intended future) makes. 

Cheese to you. :)
- Paul

arkc

Sailor,

I have changed dairies.  From a Holstein mix herd (milk abrout 3%) at about 5 or 6 days old
to a Jersey  milk about 2 days old.  Both milks are raw.  I had been making cheeses
with the first dairy for several years.  My recipes were reliable for this milk. 

You can imagine  what this has done to my recipes.  The last debacle, (my most reliable recipe)
was a triple cream that took only 8 minutes for flocc but cut like a lactic curd and drained WAY long. 
What can I do to slow down flocc time?

Annie


Sailor Con Queso

Quote from: arkc on May 16, 2011, 02:47:20 PM
What can I do to slow down flocc time?

Annie, the simple answer is, "Use less rennet" and keep reducing or adjusting until it's within range. Jersey is definitely very different from Holstein.

Paul - Cheese is definitely a balance of competing natural forces. When using raw milk with naturally occurring SLABs, you need to reduce the amount of starter bacteria that you use, generally by about 20% or so. If you are going to do long floc times, your starter needs are going to be even less. Otherwise there will be too many bacteria producing too much acid, too quickly. Reducing starter will slow things down, but the pH curve is still a bit unpredictable with the unknown and variable natural strains. If you heat your milk slowly, the natural SLABs can become more dominant by the time you add your starter.

As a practical example, I really like the flavors that Aroma B brings out in some cheeses. But it's a pain to deal with because of the slow acidification and then BAM, it jumps from 6.1 to 5.8 really fast. My 35 gallon makes call for a little less than a 1/2 gallon of Mother Culture at 2%. So, I will typically use 1/3 Ma-11 as a primary acidifier and 2/3 of the Aroma B to bring out the aromatic flavors. I shoot for a floc of 15 minutes because I feel that is a nice balance with the pH curves that I see. The point is, by using a custom blend of cultures, you can control the rate of early acidification. You can also adjust ratios to change the flavor profiles for a particular style of cheese. Once you find a ratio (bacterial recipe if you will) you stick with it. And of course, all of this is equally influenced by temperature because various strains have thermal sweet spots where they are the most active.

So, slow and long is good, but that has to be balanced with everything else going on.

Thanks for the cheese. I appreciate that.

arkc

Sailor,

What you said about less rennet makes sense, except that the last curd cut like a
lactic and was very fragile like a lactic.  Even less rennet would make it soup.

But what you said in the next paragraph makes sense also!

QuotePaul - Cheese is definitely a balance of competing natural forces. When using raw milk with naturally occurring SLABs, you need to reduce the amount of starter bacteria that you use, generally by about 20% or so. If you are going to do long floc times, your starter needs are going to be even less. Otherwise there will be too many bacteria producing too much acid, too quickly. Reducing starter will slow things down, quote]
Quote
What if I reduce the starter instead?

annie


ArnaudForestier

Thanks, Ed, lots to think on.  Most immediately, I know I've been pretty ginger on the heating-up period, as my larger batches are direct-fired in Vollrath, but now it occurs to me that again, I'm probably saving one grace yet losing another, because it's pretty clear that by the time I hit strike temp for my added SLABs, the indigenous mesos have gone to town. 

What you've said makes perfect sense - will try to balance out my concern for protein denaturation from too aggressive a heating-in, with my (probably, greater) concern to ensure a consistent ripening and early acidification.  Your second paragraph, too, brings me to think more deeply on what I'm after, and what I should be expecting, given the conditions I'm now playing in. 

Many thanks again - a really keen and helpful post. :)
- Paul