Camembert Making - Bitter Aftertaste

[simoncnx]

Making cheese in Thailand is not easy because of the high temps all the time so everything almost is done in several big fridges.  The cheese turns put pretty good; the initial taste is wonderful.  But, there is a slightly bitter aftertaste.  The cheese is made with raw milk.  I was talking to a well known Italian restaurant owner who makes his own Italian cheeses for his restaurant and he said, yes, every home made camembert I have ever tasted has a slight bitter aftertaste.

Is there any remedy that anyone knows of?

actually, slightly the same problem with the stilton but not as pronounced...
Thanks

Simon

[smilingcalico]

We'd need to look at the recipe and steps used during production. It sounds like with the high heat we'd need to look at the ambient temperature too. You could start altering different things for each make to see if you can identify the problem point.

[simoncnx]

milk is warmed to 30degc in a bain marie arrangement.  Culture added (danisco) stir and wait about 1 hr. Rennet added + tiny cacl2.  Good break after 1 hr.  Cut, stir 15 mins  and scoop into moulds.  Set aircon to 21degc and allow to drain, flipping a few times.  leave overnight at 21c.  Next morning remove from moulds  and place in drinks cooler type fridge at 12 degc  and 95% humidity.  Get first bloom after another 5 days, full bloom by 10 days.  Wrap in cellophane paper and age at 5 degc for another 6 weeks.  Honestly I don't think its the temperature/humidity as my Italian friend says it always happens with home made camembert.  It is pretty subtle but its there.  Any expert views?  Thanks

[smilingcalico]

The heat remark was based on what you said about the heat in Thailand
Given that you work around that with air conditioning I'd agree we could rule that out.  Your next areas to look at are your culture amount and length of time you allow it to ripen.  I ripen my Camembert for 1/2 that time, using a quarter teaspoon for 2 gallons of milk.   I also cut my curd 15 minutes sooner than your make.  You might also want to look at how much rennet you are using.  For instance, if your recipe calls for 1 ml of single strength rennet, but you use the same amount and yours is double strength rennet, you may get bitterness there.  One last question I would ask is when are you adding your calcium chloride?  The recipe indicates you do it while renneting, but I believe general practice is to add it prior to culturing, so it has time to interact with the milk.  I use fresh raw goat milk, so I don't use calcium chloride.  Maybe someone else will pitch in a comment on the use.

[simoncnx]

General consensus that I have been able to glean is that possibly I'm using too much rennet.  The manufacturer says 2 to 3 gm per 100 liters of milk.  My scales are not that accurate so I add 3tsp.  Any idea how much 3 tsp of dried rennet weighs?  Thanks so much

[smilingcalico]

Wow, simoncnx, I don't know how much powdered rennet weighs (as I use liquid rennet) but if the weight of salt is anything like it, a single teaspoon weighs over 6 grams!!!  I know, it sounds way off, but for salt, two different sites listed 6.375g and 6.24g.  So, where do you go from here?  I'd suggest hugely cutting back (maybe to 1/8 of a teaspoon) and shooting for a floc time of 15 minutes or a bit less, then adjust from there.  One post I was reading had an example of 11 minutes.  Search floc time on the forum and look for posts regarding camembert.  I hope we've just fixed your bitterness issue!

[simoncnx]

Thank you.  I had reached the same conclusion.  I will halve the amount of rennet I add.

[ScottC]

if the weight of salt is anything like it, a single teaspoon weighs over 6 grams!!!  I know, it sounds way off, but for salt, two different sites listed 6.375g and 6.24g. 

The weight of dried rennet and dry salt will be very different. Salt will be much heavier. Freeze dried protein is very light. That being said, I don't know what exactly is in 'dried rennet' (i.e how crude a preparation it is).

I'm no expert in cheese making, but I guess you could always just do a test run with reduced amounts to find the smallest required weight that achieves a clean break in the time that you deem acceptable. Otherwise, invest in a digital jeweller's scale from ebay... they're not very expensive.

Cheers,

Scott.

[cheezwhizz]

Sawatdee krup khun Simon..Saibai dee mai   

  Too much rennet is notorious for bitterness . And although ive never used dry rennet, it sounds like your using WAY too much!...I use liquid animal rennet and a good rule of thumb is about 1/8 tsp.per gallon of milk.  What kind of floc. times are you getting?

[arkc]

I know this is a little late, but I just saw your post.

I didn't see your recipe...Did you use GC?  Peter Dixon says that if you don't add just a smidge
(1/5 as much as PC) of it, your cam can be bitter.

arkc

[sstrantz]

Is it a powdered calf rennet?  (Possibly RENCO brand?)

At least for RENCO, here is the recommended amount:
1/16tsp (1/3 gram) will set 1-2 gallons of milk in approximately 1 hour and 15 minutes

[simoncnx]

Agghh its so difficult...

Steve Shapson (the Cheesemaker) says use equal quantities of PC  and GC, and his guidance for Meso is not linear vs volume.

Nicki (cheesemaking) says 1:6 for GC:PC

I make 80 Lit batches (48 cheeses at 250g)  last batch i used 2 tsp Meso100, 1/8 tsp GC, 2/8 tsp PC  and 3/8 Rennet from renco NZ.  Am I using enough?  any recommendations?

[JeffHamm]

Hi Simoncnx,

I'm not sure if you've done this yet, but some people have mentioned it in previous posts so I'll bring it up again, try using the floc method to dial in your rennet amount.  It might be easier to do this with a smaller batch, say 10 litres, then just scale it up.  Anyway, if you've read up on how to do this, skip this post, if not, give it a go.

First, you will need a small light plastic bowl (i.e. a small container you might put a baby's food in).  At the time you add your rennet, float this bowl on the milk (cleaned and sterlise the bowl, and the baby while you're at it) and write down the time.  The bowl will float around at the gentlest of touches.  Each minute, tap the bowl, it will float freely.  Eventually, though, it will start to get a bit sluggish, and it will move more slowly.  Start tapping every 30 seconds once it's clear that the boat is getting clogged down.  It will act like the anchor is dragging, or like walking through a swamp.  The milk will be trying to hold the bowl rather than float it.  Eventually, a light tap will not move the bowl from it's place, rather it will sort of lurch forward and get pulled back.  Write the time down when that happens.

This point, when the bowl is "stuck" is the flocculation point.  If you're using the right amount of rennet, then the time between adding the rennet and the flocculation point should be somewhere between 10 and 15 minutes.  If you reach that point sooner, use less rennet next time, if you reach it later, use more.  Keep adjusting until you've got the milk and rennet working together to get you a floc time of 10-15 minutes.  Shouldn't take many attempts.

Let's say you've found it required 12 minutes to get to the floc point.  You can then use this value to determine the time at which to cut your curds by using a floc multiplier.  For Cam, that value is in the 5-6 range, so let's go with 5.  5 x 12 gives you 60 minutes.  That means, you should cut the curds 60 minutes after adding the rennet (remember, you've used 12 of those minutes already just getting to the floc point). 

Since the milk varies from season to season, and what the animals are feeding on can influence things, using the floc time to detemine the cutting time results in more consistency between makes than using a constant time.

Now, as for the ratio of geo to PC, I'll leave that to those who are more experienced with this kind of cheese.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes for you.

- Jeff

[Boofer]

Is it a powdered calf rennet?  (Possibly RENCO brand?)

At least for RENCO, here is the recommended amount:
1/16tsp (1/3 gram) will set 1-2 gallons of milk in approximately 1 hour and 15 minutes

Simon, I use Renco dry calf rennet and I get fairly reasonable flocculation times using 1/16 tsp to 3/32 tsp (1/16 tsp + 1/32 tsp) for a 4 gallon batch.

1/16 tsp = .0625 tsp = .2976 grams (converter)

-Boofer-