Cutting curds before ladling vs. just ladling

[medomak]

Thoughts on the final product between cutting the curds into 1" cubes and even stirring a bit before ladling into a cam mold versus just ladling from the large whole curd and into the cam mold?

I'm imagining a softer, more supple paste?

I made a cam last week doing the cut curd method and I made a coulommier today just ladling the curd.  I'll see in a month or so, I guess, but just want to know if anyone has tried both methods and what the results were.

Thanks in advance.

[Cheese Head]

medomak, my understanding is that in general soft lactic acid coagulated curds are ladled and harder rennet coagulated curds are cut and allowed to rest and heal and start whey expulsion before being ladled into gravity draining hoops.

If you made a rennet coagulated curd then I would expect that ladling vs cuting would result in less whey expulsion and thus a moister cam or coulommier cheese immediately after gravity draining.

Let us know the results!

[medomak]

Thanks John.  The reason I tried it was that I had two different recipes for the same cheese (coulommier).  One called for cutting the curd, healing and stirring.  The other called for scooping out thin slices of the curd.  Coupled with a YouTube video I saw of commercial cam makers simply ladling curds into the molds and that is what made me think it was plausible to try it.  The experiment will show me the result, but just wondered if others had tries the ladling method for a rennet coagulated white mold ripened cheese.  Will let you know.

[boothrf]

medomak,

I have not tried the method of just ladeling curds without cutting them. however, I have experimented with my camemberts, cutting to different sizes (15 - 25mm), different amount of stirring and different lengths of time between cutting and hooping. The main issue I have had when the curd is cut large and not stirred very much is moisture retention in the curd. This has led to cheeses that are heavy in weight, and do not last very long due to their high moisture content. These cheeses obviously needed much longer to drain, but still seemed to retain a lot of moisture. With all methods, the paste has ended up soft and runny, just much faster with the higher moisture cheeses. And there is a much  higher risk of slip skin with the high moisture cheese.

I look forward to hearing of your results.

[medomak]

Bob,

Thank you for sharing your experience with me.  Very helpful.  I think my next experiment will be to cut the curds, but not stir them and see the difference.

I'm also thinking that maybe I should have let the coulommiers stay in the hoops longer.  They shrunk to about an inch and a half, but I only let them stay in the hoop for about 24 hours (same as the cams that I cut and stirred....however the cams are about twice the height as the coulommiers).  The coulommiers are still very moist.  Maybe I'll try to let them drain longer as a separate experiment?

I'll let you know.  Again, thanks for sharing your experiences.

Dave

[boothrf]

Dave, I think your ladeled curd cheeses will require longer drain time to expel the whey which will be more tightly bound in the curd. Cutting the curd helps to release whey, so uncut curd should retain it longer.

You could try monitoring the pH as well.  I don't have a meter, but have used strips to at least give me a guide. I'm no expert, but I believe when the cheese is properly drained and acidified, the pH should be around 5.0.

As to the different heights of the cheeses, assuming the recipe size and ingredients are similar, the only explanation I can suggest is that the uncut curds fill the hoops with much fewer air gaps so will fill to a lower height. (think of filling a glass jar with the same weight of sand and gravel, the gravel will fill higher in the jar for the same weight due to more air gaps between the pieces)

Hope this is some help to you,

Regards, Bob

[medomak]

So three weeks later, I've got a really runny, tasty result.  The outsides are moist/wet and smell of ammonia, but the paste is gooey and salty/buttery deliciousness.  Compare the first two pics of the "coulommier" with the last pic of the "camembert".  The cam was much thicker, was the result of cut and stirred curds and aged at 55 degrees in a ripening box for 4 weeks.  The runny coulommiers were much thinner, was the result of ladled curds and aged in the same ripening box as the cam for 3 weeks. 

I've got a few variables here that I've got to consider as having an effect on the differences in paste.

1)ladling vs. cutting/stirring the curd  (previously addressed)
2)I used flocculation method for both, but the coulommier was suspicious for me.  It took 36 minutes to reach the initial flocculation point, whereas the cam was about 15 minutes.  Both had a multiplier of 6.    So basically, I let the curd set for a little over 3 hours on the coulommier.    I figure that has to be considered as having some sort of effect on the final paste.
3)The heights of both cheeses.  The coulommier was much thinner (by about half) than the cam and I'm inclined to think that the thickness is a factor in that the coulommiers were basically ripened the whole way through whereas the cam was ripe on the perimeters.  I get Bob's point about the cut curds having an effect on the final size of the cheese. 

Anyhow, the other thought I have about the cheeses are that both had strong ammonia smells and I'm inclined to believe that my ripening temp was too high.  Next time, after the mold bloom covers the cheese, I'll move to 45 degrees and see if I can't reduce the ammonia smell. 

[zenith1]

The ammonia smell is most likely due to having too small of an air exchange rate while ripening. The smell as you probably already know is normal during ripening. Somewhere here on the forum I have read the air exchange rate that is needed. Also, maybe you are ripening in too small a volumetric area- again more to do with air exchange rates. It adds to the difficulty for us home grown cheeseheads because we need to balance the need for air exchange with the need to maintain the correct and high levels of humidity required for these types of cheese during aging.

[medomak]

Thanks, Keith.

Seen any suggestions on how you facilitate air exchange with a ripening box?

[Boofer]

Seen any suggestions on how you facilitate air exchange with a ripening box?

Nice pics and dialogue, Dave.

There have been some threads on managing air exchange in a "cave". Use the search.

In my cave, I placed an older laptop cooler in the back to move the air around inside the cave. I leave my minicave (ripening box) lid cracked just a bit to manage humidity. Not sure how much that really helps, but the air is at least moving.

I typically open the minicave every other day to wash or tend to the cheese inside. That flushes the minicave with fresh air.

-Boofer-