Sour tasting Havarti

[MacGruff]

Thanks Boofer!

Yes, I figured out that my timing on asking the questions, stank to high heavens!!!   

Anyway, I did rub off the mold with a combination of vinegar and salt. Then did it again a week later. I'll repeat as needed for the next week and half until I am ready to cut into it and taste this creation. The only thing keeping me from cutting it earlier is my preparations for the first business trip of the year...

BTW - I also got a food saver and intend to take chunks of the Havarti and store it in the vacuum seal in the cave for a few more months to see how it develops. Finally - over the holidays I made a Gouda wheel as well and it is resting now in the same cheese cave. Interestingly, since I added the second wheel, the average cave humidity has gone up from the 80-85% range to the 85-90% range. Hmmm...

[MacGruff]

Today was the day I've been waiting for for a month or so. I cut into my Havarti to taste it.

drum roll please!

Once cut past the very thin rind, the cheese paste itself was still very creamy. It was only a little harder than a cold cream cheese (By the way, I first let it get up to room temperature for an hour before this cutting!) The color of it was pure white while the rind itself was a little yellowy. The thickness of the rind was less than one eighth of an inch.

Cut off a small chunk to taste. The first impression was of a very buttery and creamy cheese. The attack (to use the wine terminology that I am familiar with) was very good and caused me and my family to exclaim "yum!"

After a few seconds though, the acidity broke through and the flavor evolved into a less than positive direction. It became somewhat bitter-tasting.

I took the cheese wheel and cut it into quarters and put each into a food saver, labeled them, and they are back in the cheese cave to see how this develops over the coming months. The small wedge that we ate from is in the fridge in the same area, and packed the same way as the commercial cheeses we have to see how that develops.

Now to my question: the bitterness. Why? and what can be done to reduce it?

Thanks for the help as always.

P.S. - the Gouda wheel I have is also vacuum sealed now and will sit until it's at least three months old.

[iratherfly]

This is not acidity as you describe it because if it was acidic than it would have been brittle or crumbly at this point and display no elasticity. Sounds like it was soft so let's eliminate that as a cause.

The very pale paste in combination with bitterness may be clues to inferior quality milk (though not definitive). Where did you source your milk?  White is caused by lack of beta carotene in the cow's diet (in other words, it is not eating grass). This is normal for mid winter cheese and may be normal if you made it in middle to late fall if you live in colder drier climate such as the Northeastern US. But in combination with bitterness this could be related to medication that the cow takes, homogenization (that crushes far globules and affect lipolysis) and poor feed like fermented greens or grain.  Where did you get your milk from?

Another cause may be too much proteolysis (also consistent with very soft cheese) but I can't think of what would cause it in your case except for extremely high aging temp (say, over 60°F). Sounds like you aged it cold.

Was it sour at all like your other one?  Many times these things can be resolved by aging longer.  Make notes for your tasting for each of those sectioned vacuumed pieces and open them a month apart over the next few months to see how it affects them. Then compare your notes. Sounds like you are half way there already. You will soon figure out the optimal time for this one.

[MacGruff]

Thanks for the quick reply. I was thinking it was maybe a case of using too much Rennet, myself, but I am no expert.

My milk was sourced from the supermarket. It was homogenized, but not Ultra-Pasteurized. Where it came from? Who knows?!!  The first Havarti I made, which lead to this whole thread starting, was made from milk from a local farmer who promised me over and over again that they only flash pasteurize and do NOT homogenize. While I have no way of knowing if that was true or not, every cheese I attempted with their milk failed. So, for this second attempt, I went in a different direction.

As to where I live, I guess Pittsburgh, PA counts as being in the Northeastern part of the U.S.

This cheese is definiely NOT as sour as the previous one was. Not when I knitted the curds, nor now. It's been aging for five weeks. I am actually following your suggestion of sectioning it off and will try a small sliver every month or so.

Of course, if it is the milk, I have no idea where to turn to next as I have not found a source of milk in this area. Are there any repositories of such data on the internet?

[george]

I would guess at rennet also as another possible cause.

For what it's worth, I've found my havartis to be best at about 8 weeks.  So you've still got some good aging time to go.   

[iratherfly]

Supermarket milk usually comes from mixes from multiple industrial farms many miles away from each other, where cows living in closed quarters, usually don't see the light of day or pasture and are fed a cheap diet of corn, grains and fermented hay. In with the feed there is also a healthy dose of antibiotics that the cows receives whether they are sick or not as a preventative measure because this poor nutrition and holding conditions means poor health and poor milk. (In fact, did you know that 85% of all antibiotics in the US are given to cows? It's really horrific).  Even if the label doesn't say so, most supermarket milk these days (including the national organic brands) is ultra-pasteurized or HTST which virtually sterilizes it to kill anything in it (and with it also what little good stuff there may be, including beneficial probiotics and flora, enzymes and essential minerals such as Calcium). It's a poor cheesemaking candidate. Homogenization makes it even worst as it is no longer in its normal form. The fat globules are now part of the liquid, they are digestable and membranes that are meant to protect them and give them separate activity are now broken.  The fatty acids are a huge flavor producer in the milk (responsible for the sharpness of the cheese) and the homogenization also creates texture defects, often more dense or grainy than needed. Any antibiotics that have survived the

When that farmer claimed to have given you a non homogenized milk, all you have to do is look at the milk! If it is indeed non homogenized, you will see a layer of cream floating on top of the jug then the milk is cold (or remnants of free butterfat floating in the pot). The layer would be consistent with the milk fat (whole milk would be 4.8% of the bottle, 2% will be 2% of the bottle, nonfat would be nothing, etc.)  It is a bit harder to notice if the cows are Dutch Belted as they produce milk with tiny globules which makes it almost naturally homogenized. With Jersey cows you can expect much more fat, as much as 6.5% for a well-fed cow in the middle of summer.

If I may suggest, try to get good-quality non-homogenized local, grass-fed organic milk at your nearest Whole Food Market (5880 Centre Ave,
Pittsburgh, PA???). I realize it may be far more than you want to spend but do it for one cheese 0just so you can see the difference and you will have something to compare it too. My suggestion only.

[MacGruff]

I understand about the quality of the milk. Thanks iratherfly. Unfortunately, Pittsburgh is actually quite spread out and I live 25 miles away from the Whole Foods you mention. I need to find a closer source for better milk than the local supermarket chain.

On to other matters:

At a dinner last night i ventured my cheese out. We first let it get to room temp and then tasted it alongside a Taleggio; Goat Gouda; and a Manchego. Much to my surprise, the bitterness on the finish had completely disappeared! Not sure what the difference was besides 24 hours in the refrigerator... 

Tasting it now, the cheese is very creamy, but reminds me more of a Feta flavor without any salt than the butteriness of the commercial Havartis I am used to getting in the stores. The color of my homemade cheese is also very white. It was even whiter than the store bought Gouda, while the others cheeses were more yellowy. Again, compared to Havartis purchased in the store, this was much whiter.

Interesting!

[JeffHamm]

Hi MacGruff,

I've found that some bitterness that I've detected in some of my cheeses also seems to vanish after a few days once the cheese has been cut into.  Congratulations on a successful cheese then!  Well done.

- Jeff

[margaretsmall]

Hi McGruff,
A cheese to you for your achievement - well done. And thanks for starting this thread, as a fellow beginning Havarti maker, I've learnt a lot from this thread (thanks Ira and Jeff too).

[iratherfly]

Any time!

In that case...  I think it was just gas flavor. Yeasts, proprionic and diactetyl-producing bacteria digest nutrients and produce gas (much like when you are making bread).  This gas has a lot to do with the texture (eyes) of the cheese and as they go through the cheese they give it the aroma you expect it to have. If the cheese is closed, has a thick rind, waxed or especially vacuumed, you may have much of the gas still trapped in the crevices of the cheese and like old wine, it needs to breath a bit for these to be released into the air.  This is especially true with Havarti because made properly, this cheese has a particularly large number of small eyes for these gases to hide.

As for the white color, it is typical of winter milk and especially typical of industrial milk production where cows are not fed greens. The yellowness of the milk happens due to Beta Carotene in the cow's diet (and less of it is available in nature in the winter because there isn't much fresh green grass to munch on). Many commercial dairies use a few drops of Annatto extract to color the cheese. While it may not improve any nutritional, flavoring or aromatic property of the cheese, it will make it appear more yellow and familiar.  Be careful with Annatto, a little goes a long way!

Here is the listing of all PA Whole Foods locations: http://wholefoodsmarket.com/stores/pennsylvania/
Also, check out this great raw milk resource if you are not familiar: http://www.realmilk.com/where08.html#pa - looks like there are tons of them in PA, including listings for Allegheny County and more listings for what seems like Pittsburgh proper.

[MacGruff]

Thanks, iratherfly. I went on the Whole Foods website and asked to consider putting in a store in my area. And also thanks for the listing of milk producers. I saw several leads that looked promising and I will check them out!

A cheese for your help!

[iratherfly]

Yay!

Would be amazing if you can get your hands on raw milk!  What's your next project?

[MacGruff]

I am trying to decide between a Colby and making some Cheddar Curds for Poutine...

Any suggestions?

[MacGruff]

Another month has passed, and I decided to try the cheese again.

I took a wedge out of the 'cave'; cut it out of the vacuum bag; and let it sit for a couple of hours at room temp before tasting it. Picture below is from this stage

First step was to sniff it. It definitely smelled right!. So, the next step was to cut off a slice and this is where things started to go bad:
- The cheese is relatively firm. Not as creamy as the commercial Havartis I am used to.
- It is also crumbly rather than creamy. Not bad enough to become like a crumbled Feta, but definitely not as smooth as I was hoping for.
- First taste is nice but then a bitterness comes in (this also happened during the previous tasting last month)
- the bitterness passes but then a certain sourness comes in.
- there is a long lasting finish flavor which I cannot put words on, but it is not a pleasant aftertaste.

I took the cheese and stored it in the fridge overnight - hoping that like last time, the bitterness will dissipate, but no luck. The flavor profile is the same.

OK, wise ones. What to do?

This wheel was made with supermarket milk and now I have a source of raw milk. I am thinking of following the same recipe, but what else should I change besides the milk? If anything??

Also, for those who use vacuum sealing. Why do we need a humid cheese cave if we are vacuum sealing?

Thanks for the help. Always appreciated!

[iratherfly]

Oh my, I totally missed out on your follow up post.

What you are describing sounds like a little too much acid buildup and perhaps too long of a flocculation. Did you get the signature small eyes of Havarti? This could also be related to the low quality milk. If it is homogenized than it doesn't ripen the same because the fat globules have been modified and fat is one of the most important flavor and texture components in any cheese.

I would try again with your new raw milk. You should see a significant difference (and higher yield too.

The acid buildup could happen if you let the milk ripen too long before renneting, or if your rennet period (flocculation) is too long. If these were fine, then the issue could be related to a buildup of acid later, in the press (room too warm), brining (brine too warm or too acidic), drying (dry at warm room temperature for too long). These situations cause the lactic bacteria to work hard and fast, producing too much lactic acid too fast. The bacteria will eat up the sugars and die off before any sufficient breakdown of fat/proteins has taken place.  Press in cool room (65°F), use cool brine (55°F), dry in the cave or cool room (60°F-65°F).

No need for any humidity control or monitoring in the cave if you are aging in vacuum!